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The Elcano Challenge: Ground-Based Circumnavigation (4th)


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  On 3/12/2023 at 9:21 AM, RoninFrog said:

It's a unicycle rover that just kinda keeps itself straight up through reaction wheels.

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Love it!  I noticed in the video that while accelerating your rover pitches forward a bit.  Not sure if you have tried this or not, but you might consider re-mapping the rover controls.

The default rover controls are the same keys as the rotation (WSAD).  By default, when you want to 'drive forward' it also pitches your rover forward.  By re-mapping your rover controls to different keys, you retain the pitch controls of WSAD, but can use different keys to control the wheels.  I think one setup I use is to re-map the rover controls to the translation keys (HNIJKL).  Something to consider..

  On 3/15/2023 at 10:11 AM, kspfreak said:

@18Wattr  are we allowed to modify non-critical parts of our vessel (such as science experiments or power sources) with EVA construction, or would that violate rule 6 of the challenge?

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EVA construction is allowed.  However, any parts you add also need to be flown from KSC to your rover, teleporting parts to your rover is not allowed.

I could make a clearer ruling if you gave more information on what you would like to do.  Here's a few examples-

  • Your science parts or solar panels are not ideally located (taking damage..). You could use EVA construction to relocate those parts to another location on your rover.
  • You could even add additional solar panels to your rover.  However, any additional parts would need to be flown from KSC to your rover.  You can't just teleport parts to your rover..

If possible, give a specific example of what you would like to do, and I can hopefully give you a better answer.

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  On 3/16/2023 at 9:20 AM, Pouicpouic said:

it gives an upward thrust in case of a jump, which is forbidden (if there is an atmosphere of course)

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Yeah, they are only upward facing while on the water.  They actually flip over to generate downforce on land.  One issue I do see is that I use the same propellors for land, and I can't really shut them off immediately when I unintentionally go airborne (which happens a lot; I usually travel at 60-80 m/s), so they still generate thrust during a jump.  But the point isn't to try to maximize airtime so I'm not going against the spirit of the challenge.  Here is a video of part of a driving segment:

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Also, I'm about a quarter of the way done with Kerbin:

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The thing handles a dream on land;  It can survive 15m jumps at 60-70 m/s and can also make full turns at speeds anywhere less than 50 m/s.  I bet it would shred through Eve with thicker atmosphere and greater downforce if I tried that next.

The biggest issue I'm having with it is forgetting it's still going on water and coming back to it a couple minutes too late :D.

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  On 3/16/2023 at 6:02 PM, 18Watt said:

Love it!  I noticed in the video that while accelerating your rover pitches forward a bit.  Not sure if you have tried this or not, but you might consider re-mapping the rover controls.

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Yeah that's the biggest problem with the rover is it is super finnicky to accelerate.  I actually left the controls on wasd but set the only reaction wheel not on SAS only is the command pod.  I use it at 28% power to kinda help compensate for the wheel torque, but it was still a big issue.

Edit: Also, my submission should be marked as Stock Craft since all the mods are only visual.  I'm going pure stock for my Kerbin navigation.

Edited by RoninFrog
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  On 3/16/2023 at 6:46 PM, RoninFrog said:

One issue I do see is that I use the same propellors for land, and I can't really shut them off immediately when I unintentionally go airborne (which happens a lot; I usually travel at 60-80 m/s), so they still generate thrust during a jump. 

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If you hold down the brake shortcut ("B" by default I think) it cuts the rotor immediately.
You can also use a kal1000 to reduce the angle of the blades : if it's well adjusted, braking is even more important than cutting the rotor with "B".

  On 3/16/2023 at 6:18 PM, 18Watt said:

What music is that?

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I always use royalty-free music from the Youtube library. This one is called "Six seasons" by the artist "Unicorn Heads".  :cool:

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  On 3/16/2023 at 9:20 PM, Pouicpouic said:

If you hold down the brake shortcut ("B" by default I think) it cuts the rotor immediately.
You can also use a kal1000 to reduce the angle of the blades : if it's well adjusted, braking is even more important than cutting the rotor with "B".

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Reducing the angle of the blades works.  I've already got an action group I use to adjust them so I think that'll work.  The trouble with hitting B is that it stops all the tires, making the landings super unstable because the tires' speed is mismatched with the ground.

On the other hand, I've been haulin' absolute butt over the mainland.  Broke 100m/s briefly.

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Edited by RoninFrog
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So even though I got about a third of the way through my Kerbin elcano, I decided to start over.  The folding rover was only a prototype after all, and I had noticed so many issues with it after driving for over two hours.  One problem is that pontoons suspended on hinges tend to wobble which throws watercraft off balance if they try to exceed 90 m/s.  So, I yoinked @Pouicpouic's design of a flipping rover for extra stability.  I also rotated the hinges to be parallel to the rover to dampen impacts with hills.  Here's some performance testing:

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I almost feel like we should make a separate thread in the spacecraft exchange linked to this thread, where we discuss rover design over there and actual driving and challenge completion here.

Edited by RoninFrog
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  On 3/16/2023 at 6:02 PM, 18Watt said:

Love it!  I noticed in the video that while accelerating your rover pitches forward a bit.  Not sure if you have tried this or not, but you might consider re-mapping the rover controls.

The default rover controls are the same keys as the rotation (WSAD).  By default, when you want to 'drive forward' it also pitches your rover forward.  By re-mapping your rover controls to different keys, you retain the pitch controls of WSAD, but can use different keys to control the wheels.  I think one setup I use is to re-map the rover controls to the translation keys (HNIJKL).  Something to consider..

EVA construction is allowed.  However, any parts you add also need to be flown from KSC to your rover, teleporting parts to your rover is not allowed.

I could make a clearer ruling if you gave more information on what you would like to do.  Here's a few examples-

  • Your science parts or solar panels are not ideally located (taking damage..). You could use EVA construction to relocate those parts to another location on your rover.
  • You could even add additional solar panels to your rover.  However, any additional parts would need to be flown from KSC to your rover.  You can't just teleport parts to your rover..

If possible, give a specific example of what you would like to do, and I can hopefully give you a better answer.

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In this case, I will like to relocate some rtg's and remove some science experiments, for clearer examples.

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In the last few days I have tested a lot of different designs (appears that I'm never happy with what I do), here they are:

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I think I have my final design (even if I must've said that a dozen times). I didn't include it, as it needs, well... More testing. And screenshots. Mainly screenshots.

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  On 3/19/2023 at 12:36 PM, Nazalassa said:

I think I have my final design (even if I must've said that a dozen times)

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I'm up to the Mk VIII (en route to Eeloo), I know what I'd change on a potential Mk IX (if only there were some planets left), and at that, that is rolling the iterations of the Minmus and Mun rovers into one Mark each. I know the feeling.

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Currently doing some tests... Lemme reveal my last creation.

elkano_050.png

It is currently going from the Island Airfield to the KSC. I plan to circumnavigate Kerbin under the sea for about a fourth of the trip, which means 22 glorious hours to drive on the seabed :)

I'm bored now, test successful.

 

Only issue: the Kerbal keeps leaving the seat when landing after a jump, that's a real problem. Maybe I can put a lander can or something instead?

Nah, that'll make the rover uglier.

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Been fairly busy this past week, so I haven't gotten a ton of driving done - but the driving I have completed has been much more exciting than usual, as I finally reached the necessary land crossing!

New refueling setup + trip to the land crossing:

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Lake-hopping adventures, part 1:

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Lake-hopping adventures, part 2:

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Lake-hopping adventures, part 3:

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Also EDIT: Rules question - would it be allowed to drop off a probe or something further along the route to use as a target, just to help get a more direct path? I figure it'd probably be fine, but I'd rather be paranoid and ask than accidentally kill the run 78 hours in.

Edited by Ianwubby
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  On 3/19/2023 at 1:38 AM, kspfreak said:

In this case, I will like to relocate some rtg's and remove some science experiments, for clearer examples.

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Just moving parts around with an engineer is absolutely fine.

  On 3/19/2023 at 12:36 PM, Nazalassa said:

For amphibious rovers, why not use paddle-ish things?

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  On 3/19/2023 at 12:36 PM, Nazalassa said:

But they're quite slow, and add a ton of drag when unused. Besides, they're quite fragile.

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Asked and answered, your honor!

  On 3/19/2023 at 1:23 PM, Nazalassa said:

Only issue: the Kerbal keeps leaving the seat when landing after a jump, that's a real problem.

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Easiest fix is to not do insane jumps.  Outside of that, try using the 'rigid attachment' option for attaching the lawn-chair, maybe even use auto struts on that part.

  On 3/21/2023 at 5:12 AM, Ianwubby said:

The astute among you may notice that this crossing has a rather large number of lakes. As @18Watt has kindly pointed out, it's not necessary to travel through them to complete an aquatic circumnavigation - however, I do feel that it's far more in the spirit of the challenge to avoid land travel as much as possible!

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Don't forget to watch out for underwater trees!

  On 3/21/2023 at 5:12 AM, Ianwubby said:

Checkpoint number... 31, I think?

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Ha!  I lose track pretty easily.  For equatorial or straight polar routes I just label the checkpoints by their latitude or longitude.  For your route, you might need to use both- 20N30W for example.  Anyway, that makes it easier for people like me, who lose track after about 4 or 5 checkpoints..

  On 3/21/2023 at 5:12 AM, Ianwubby said:

Rules question - would it be allowed to drop off a probe or something further along the route to use as a target, just to help get a more direct path?

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That is absolutely ALLOWED.  The only catch is all 'support' missions also need to be flown from KSC (or another launch site), you can't teleport them into position.  You will not have any problems with that, I've seen your refueling operation!  So yes, you are absolutely allowed to drop waypoints to aid navigation.  

 

  On 3/23/2023 at 1:06 AM, damerell said:

I am around Tylo; the last of the screenshots to follow.

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Congratulations to @damerell, who just completed a Tylo circumnavigation!  By the way, if y'all haven't read @damerell's mission logs, I do highly recommend them.

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Just for reference:

30 m/s = 67 m.p.h. = 108 k.p.h.

50 m/s = 111 m.p.h = 180 k.p.h.

I once did a fully automated rover trek from KSC to the North Pole, 100% stock.  Used the KAL and some creativity to accomplish that.  Trees are apparently generated randomly per save, and they were my bane on that journey.

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Been a while since the last post, but I'm still chugging along, though admittedly at a slower pace than before.

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  On 4/8/2023 at 7:04 AM, Ianwubby said:

But in the mean time, checkpoint 35!

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Do you need to do anything special to make your Kerbals stay on the ocean floor, to plant flags?  I'm a little surprised they don't float to the surface, which would of course be bad news since the rover is on the ocean floor!  Anyway, just curious if you need a mod, or if the stock game allows Kerbals to sink to the bottom if they exit a capsule while under water.

  On 4/8/2023 at 7:04 AM, Ianwubby said:

It's also at this point I launch a little beacon for Jebediah to track, to help get a straighter path along the sea floor (without needing to guess at the correct angle to take when all of the good landmarks are over the horizon)

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Again, dropping beacons is a great idea, and absolutely allowed!  Normally I'd be concerned about the beacon drifting about in the ocean, but I don't think that happens in KSP.

Edit to add:  It looks like the route you are taking will also qualify your run as a SEA circumnavigation.

 

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  On 4/9/2023 at 3:39 AM, 18Watt said:

Do you need to do anything special to make your Kerbals stay on the ocean floor, to plant flags?  I'm a little surprised they don't float to the surface, which would of course be bad news since the rover is on the ocean floor!  Anyway, just curious if you need a mod, or if the stock game allows Kerbals to sink to the bottom if they exit a capsule while under water.

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I think they put a panel just above the hatch, to prevent the Kerbal from going up.

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Currently investigating the feasibility of doing an equatorial circumnavigation of Mesbin from the planet pack Whirligig World, which has an equatorial radius nearly four times that of Kerbin.

WFbX6TN.jpg

In orbit over Mesbin

For whatever reason, presumably its oblate shape, Mesbin hates regular rover wheels, and any craft that uses them will bounce around uncontrollably until it is destroyed. Initially, I thought that this would make actually driving on it impossible, but then I remembered that one can make "wheels" using parts in a circular layout around a rotor. 

As it turns out, bigger is better when it comes to these sorts of wheels- having larger wheels allows you to gain some pretty serious speed while keeping your rotors' RPM relatively low- and avoiding the jankiness that comes with higher RPM levels. Here's my prototype- the Rimrunner, with its absolutely monstrous wheels to boot- and, thanks to how physics works, a top speed of more than 110 m/s. I could probably get it to go even faster by making the wheels even larger or making it more lightweight, but I think this is a good prototype for now.

pE9hUpI.jpg

I'm not sure whether or not I actually want to commit to an attempt to circumnavigate Mesbin though- the nearly 15,000-kilometer distance to drive all the way around seems absolutely daunting. Even at the maximum speed that this rover is capable of- roughly 110 m/s- the trip would still take almost 40 hours. But then again, that's what I said about Tylo when I started my first Elcano, so...

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