The Skyhawk Science System - a new, realistic tech tree for KSP, now including Kerbalism support - [v1.1.1 - "For Science!" 8/11/22)]

[ttikkoo]

20 hours ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

Do you have part upgrades enabled? The SAS upgrade system relies on part upgrades, so you need them enabled, even in sandbox mode.

Ah, that would be it. Appreciate the assistance and your work! I've been very curious about BDB for ages but found it too overwhelming. This tech tree  makes BDB more approachable imo! Thank you.

[AmanitaVerna]

20 hours ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

I'll check out those typos - by chance could you give me the names of some of the experiments which are causing issues so I can troubleshoot them. Also, are you on the 12hr or normal length days version? EDIT: I just saw your issue and will be investigating it later today or tommorow

After making that issue I figured out that they could be corrected by changing InSpace to Space, Global to BodyGlobal, HomeBodyandMoons to HomeBodyAndMoons (apparently case matters), and changing "Situaton" to "Situation", and I wrote an MM patch which did that, and tested it to verify that those changes fixed the broken experiments.

(I'm on the normal days length version)

Edited July 20, 2022 by AmanitaVerna

[Hrubec]

Hi, Thanks for the mod update! I just tried to load it up with KSRSS and I'm not getting any initial contracts. Working great with Kerbin SS though. Thanks!

[Probird_23]

Just a question, but how well does this tech tree mod play with USI-LS/Snacks mechanic-wise?
(Eg. Will anything integrated in this tech tree mod break the life support)

Really great mod by the way! Planning on installing this with a few custom patches for my new save!

[bigyihsuan]

2 hours ago, Probird_23 said:

Just a question, but how well does this tech tree mod play with USI-LS/Snacks mechanic-wise?
(Eg. Will anything integrated in this tech tree mod break the life support)

Probably not; I'm playing with Snacks and they aren't touched at all (other placement in the tech tree).

[Probird_23]

On 7/22/2022 at 11:39 AM, bigyihsuan said:

Probably not; I'm playing with Snacks and they aren't touched at all (other placement in the tech tree).

Thanks! 
Some other questions:
Does this mod do well with 2.5 Rescale, or just JNSQ?
If I am to make my own configs, do I have to create a separate .cfg file for each mod, or can I mash mods together in a single file?
Also, can I splice a part from one mod folder into another safely without breaking the game? (not for distribution, personal use only)
Also, will there be existing configs for antenna rescale?

Edited July 24, 2022 by Probird_23

[DeadJohn]

51 minutes ago, Probird_23 said:

Does this mod do well with 2.5 Rescale, or just JNSQ?

I'm using Skyhawk with 2.5x KSRSS. It works great and I think any other 2.5ish system will be fine.

[Probird_23]

My final questions:
Is there any planned support for OPT, because it seems to have custom tech nodes and part upgrades, and if not, are there any already existing patches for it? (I really don't want to patch it myself, seems very complicated)

On 7/23/2022 at 1:50 PM, DeadJohn said:

I'm using Skyhawk with 2.5x KSRSS. It works great and I think any other 2.5ish system will be fine.

Are there any antenna/dsn buff patches that work well with 2.5 stock rescale? (Tantares, BDB, Near Future Exploration)
Will Rational Resources affect/break the distribution of MetalOre for EPL?

Thanks!

Edited July 24, 2022 by Probird_23

[DeadJohn]

2 hours ago, Probird_23 said:

Are there any antenna/dsn buff patches that work well with 2.5 stock rescale? (Tantares, BDB, Near Future Exploration)
Will Rational Resources affect/break the distribution of MetalOre for EPL?

BDB and Near Future Exploration have many good antennas. Maybe Tantares, too, but it's been longer since I've used that and I don't remember details.

Your antennas and DSN might already be multiplied depending on how you rescale. Different rescale mods and planet packs seem to handle antennas in different ways; some rescales automatically multiply the strength of stock antennas, others leave antennas unchanged. I suggest getting all your mods and scaling set, then start a sandbox game to test. Make a probe with an antenna that you think should be able to reach from Mun to Kerbin, cheat it into Mun orbit, and see if you get a reasonable signal.

The Antenna Helper mod offers a way to check antenna range from VAB without having to do math or test flights. If you are in the middle of a playthrough and you feel that the available antennas and DSN are too weak, you can go into KSP settings and increase the signal multiplier.

(I don't use Rational Resources. When I do ISRU I stick to stock ore so can't help you there.)

[Probird_23]

Just now, DeadJohn said:

BDB and Near Future Exploration have many good antennas. Maybe Tantares, too, but it's been longer since I've used that and I don't remember details.

Your antennas and DSN might already be multiplied depending on how you rescale. Different rescale mods and planet packs seem to handle antennas in different ways; some rescales automatically multiply the strength of stock antennas, others leave antennas unchanged. I suggest getting all your mods and scaling set, then start a sandbox game to test. Make a probe with an antenna that you think should be able to reach from Mun to Kerbin, cheat it into Mun orbit, and see if you get a reasonable signal.

The Antenna Helper mod offers a way to check antenna range from VAB without having to do math or test flights. If you are in the middle of a playthrough and you feel that the available antennas and DSN are too weak, you can go into KSP settings and increase the signal multiplier.

(I don't use Rational Resources. When I do ISRU I stick to stock ore so can't help you there.)

Do you recommend any good antenna buff/rescale mods/patches? (2.5 stock, not JNSQ)

[DeadJohn]

Just now, Probird_23 said:

Do you recommend any good antenna buff/rescale mods/patches? (2.5 stock, not JNSQ)

Do you already know how to rescale your stock system to 2.5x? Check that relevant mod thread for what it says about antenna. (All of my recent play has been KSRSS or JNSQ and I don't know how to scale stock with KSP 1.12)

To buff antenna, press <escape> from KSC or flight, Settings, Difficulty Options, Advanced. There are sliders for Range Modifier (affects antenna strength) and DSN Modifier.

[AmanitaVerna]

SkyhawkKerbalism seems to have a Kerbalism.version file from Kerbalism 3.14 for some reason, and it's confusing KSP-AVC now that Kerbalism is on 3.15. Because that file is there, KSP-AVC pops up a warning saying that Kerbalism is still on 3.14 even after updating it to 3.15.

[Beetlecat]

11 hours ago, AmanitaVerna said:

SkyhawkKerbalism seems to have a Kerbalism.version file from Kerbalism 3.14 for some reason, and it's confusing KSP-AVC now that Kerbalism is on 3.15. Because that file is there, KSP-AVC pops up a warning saying that Kerbalism is still on 3.14 even after updating it to 3.15.

It's the set of configs that Skyhawk is using to provide custom Kerbalism features.  It's still based on the 3.14 ones -- if there weren't any changes to the configs, it's just a matter of updating the version file if you want the error to go away.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Beetlecat

[AmanitaVerna]

5 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

It's the set of configs that Skyhawk is using to provide custom Kerbalism features.  It's still based on the 3.14 ones -- if there weren't any changes to the configs, it's just a matter of updating the version file if you want the error to go away.

Wait, how is a .version file containing only the following quoted text a "set of configs that Skyhawk is using to provide custom Kerbalism features?"

{
  "NAME": "Kerbalism",
  "URL": "https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/master/GameData/Kerbalism/Kerbalism.version",
  "DOWNLOAD": "https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/releases",
  "CHANGE_LOG_URL": "https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md",
  "VERSION": {"MAJOR": 3, "MINOR": 14, "PATCH": 0, "BUILD": 0},
  "KSP_VERSION": {"MAJOR": 1, "MINOR": 12, "PATCH": 0},
  "KSP_VERSION_MIN": {"MAJOR": 1, "MINOR": 8, "PATCH": 0},
  "KSP_VERSION_MAX": {"MAJOR": 1, "MINOR": 12, "PATCH": 9}
}

 

[Beetlecat]

6 hours ago, AmanitaVerna said:

Wait, how is a .version file containing only the following quoted text a "set of configs that Skyhawk is using to provide custom Kerbalism features?"

{
  "NAME": "Kerbalism",
  "URL": "https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/master/GameData/Kerbalism/Kerbalism.version",
  "DOWNLOAD": "https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/releases",
  "CHANGE_LOG_URL": "https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md",
  "VERSION": {"MAJOR": 3, "MINOR": 14, "PATCH": 0, "BUILD": 0},
  "KSP_VERSION": {"MAJOR": 1, "MINOR": 12, "PATCH": 0},
  "KSP_VERSION_MIN": {"MAJOR": 1, "MINOR": 8, "PATCH": 0},
  "KSP_VERSION_MAX": {"MAJOR": 1, "MINOR": 12, "PATCH": 9}
}

 

Well, I wasn't fully complete with my statement--  SkyhawkKerbalism is a set of configs cloned from Kerbalism 3.14's. It just happens to have its own .version file that is now prompting an 'out of date' error now that Kerbalism itself is v3.15. It may or may not be *actually* out of date, but all you have to do is update or delete that file to make the message go away. That's the reason the error is appearing, though.

[Socowez]

In the SkyhawkKerbalism github release, it says you need KerbalismFFT and KerbalismSystemHeat patches for full integration with FFT and SystemHeat, which are both mods I use. However, it doesn't say where to find said patches, and searchin on the ol' google comes up dry. Does anyone have links for the patch downloads?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Socowez
typo

[Beetlecat]

37 minutes ago, Socowez said:

In the SkyhawkKerbalism github release, it says you need KerbalismFFT and KerbalismSystemHeat patches for full integration with FFT and SystemHeat, which are both mods I use. However, it doesn't say where to find said patches, and searchin on the ol' google comes up dry. Does anyone have links for the patch downloads?

Good question -- I had to do similar digging back through the threads.  They're not posted/published as formal mods on the forum (forum-al?),  so not as intuitive to find.  Here's what I came up with:

KerbalismSystemHeat: https://github.com/judicator/KerbalismSystemHeat

KerbalismFFT: https://github.com/judicator/KerbalismFFT

The author of both, Judicator81 (I think?) has made fairly recent updates, so hopefully these are relatively current and effective.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Beetlecat

[Beetlecat]

On 1/11/2022 at 1:35 PM, RKunze said:

I am currently developing a MM patch set that changes kOS integration in SSS.

The basic idea is to add a kOSProcessor module to most crewed capsules and probe cores - basically another "kOS for All!"  mini-mod, but depending on and balanced for SSS:

• The performance data of the kOSProcessor (disk space, EC usage per instruction, added mass, ...) depends on the tech tree level where the part is unlocked (processors in earlier probes/capsules are heavier, use more EC per instruction, have smaller disks, and maybe are more expensive).
• If possible, the kOSProcessor module in each capsule/probe core can be added/dropped via PAW in the VAB (this depends on if I can get B9PartSwitch to reliably switch the kOSProcessor module on/off - support for this is labeled as "highly experimental" in the B9PartSwitch wiki).

I can do this either as an integral part of SSS, or as a separate add-on mini mod that depends on SSS,. My personal preference at the moment is to do a separate mini-mod because this gives users more choice.

What is your (especially @CessnaSkyhawk) take on this idea? 

Sorry for the many-month necro, but I'm catching up on this thread as I build out a SSS-based career to spin around in for a bit.

I believe I found your repo of this mod-let here (nah, it's a full-fledged mod!) but not sure if it's ready to drop in and try yet?  It doesn't seem to be behaving as indicated/intended. I can add an issue request on github if that's ideal/you're still working on this?

Edited July 28, 2022 by Beetlecat

[RKunze]

4 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

I believe I found your repo of this mod-let here (nah, it's a full-fledged mod!) but not sure if it's ready to drop in and try yet?  It doesn't seem to be behaving as indicated/intended.

Yes, that is the mod. And I think it does work as intended, but the intentions changed a bit from the original idea.

First off, I had to drop the idea of making the kOSProcessor optional via B9PartSwitch, because kOS absolutely does not like launching with a disabled processor module.

What I am doing now is adding a fixed kOSProcessor module to every probe core where it "fits" (see below for the definition of "fit"), starting with weak processors early in the tree and progressing to better processors later. I also have part upgrades along the tree that retrofit earlier probe cores and command modules with better processors.

I decide if a processor module fits on a part based on its mass: I've put mass values to the processor modules based on the mass of the Apollo guidance computer for the "early" line, a contemporary embedded computer or laptop for the "modern" line and basically nothing for the "future" option. Tthe "default" line based on the inline parts from kOS get masses in between the "early" and "modern" line. And a processor module fits into a probe core if the mass of the processor module is not greater than 1/4 of the total mass of the part (that fraction is tweakable, see EMBEDDED_KOS_KIRKUITS/defaultMassBudgetFactor or the massBudgetFactor for individual processor modules).

This means that some small probe cores - especially the "early satellites" in tiers 2 and 3  - do not get a kOSProcessor. That is by design, to encourage the player to use the dedicated BDB guidance cores in their designs (which do have processors) instead of simply slapping on a tiny Explorer I style satellite core and have that thing do all the processing.

That mechanism probably needs some more balancing and tweaking for some individual parts. I'm still very early in my own testing career (just building a Redstone type launcher for suborbital reentry tests and to get the first satellites to orbit, and currently stuck on the math for a fully automated kOS atmospheric ascent guidance that I want to test on those flights as well) so I haven't played with the cores from tiers beyond 3 yet, but basically the mod does what I intend it to do. 

[Beetlecat]

5 minutes ago, RKunze said:

Yes, that is the mod. And I think it does work as intended, but the intentions changed a bit from the original idea.

First off, I had to drop the idea of making the kOSProcessor optional via B9PartSwitch, because kOS absolutely does not like launching with a disabled processor module.

What I am doing now is adding a fixed kOSProcessor module to every probe core where it "fits" (see below for the definition of "fit"), starting with weak processors early in the tree and progressing to better processors later. I also have part upgrades along the tree that retrofit earlier probe cores and command modules with better processors.

I decide if a processor module fits on a part based on its mass: I've put mass values to the processor modules based on the mass of the Apollo guidance computer for the "early" line, a contemporary embedded computer or laptop for the "modern" line and basically nothing for the "future" option. Tthe "default" line based on the inline parts from kOS get masses in between the "early" and "modern" line. And a processor module fits into a probe core if the mass of the processor module is not greater than 1/4 of the total mass of the part (that fraction is tweakable, see EMBEDDED_KOS_KIRKUITS/defaultMassBudgetFactor or the massBudgetFactor for individual processor modules).

This means that some small probe cores - especially the "early satellites" in tiers 2 and 3  - do not get a kOSProcessor. That is by design, to encourage the player to use the dedicated BDB guidance cores in their designs (which do have processors) instead of simply slapping on a tiny Explorer I style satellite core and have that thing do all the processing.

That mechanism probably needs some more balancing and tweaking for some individual parts. I'm still very early in my own testing career (just building a Redstone type launcher for suborbital reentry tests and to get the first satellites to orbit, and currently stuck on the math for a fully automated kOS atmospheric ascent guidance that I want to test on those flights as well) so I haven't played with the cores from tiers beyond 3 yet, but basically the mod does what I intend it to do. 

That's a nicely reasoned set of assumptions for "who gets what" -- nicely executed! Thanks for the expanded explanation.

Good to know I'm not just crazy that the B9 switcher isn't showing up.   Having the proper functionality in mind it *does* seem to be working properly in a test game. The intro set of guidance components have the minimal capacity kOS bits installed.

I'll probably add a minimal kOS bit to the CNAR rocket so I can do some basic rocket training.   I never seem to get very far in my careers before migrating away for one reason or another. I'll be following in that Redstone path soon enough.  Are you using Skyhawk + Kerbalism as well?  I'm trying to decide if it's going to be worth chasing down the potential config issues with such elaborately built systems.

 

[RKunze]

13 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

I'll probably add a minimal kOS bit to the CNAR rocket so I can do some basic rocket training.

Just looked up the specs for it (I don't habe CNAR installed - BDB already has more than enough parts to play with). Yep, the Titov probe core is too light to get the processor by default...

13 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

Are you using Skyhawk + Kerbalism as well?  I'm trying to decide if it's going to be worth chasing down the potential config issues with such elaborately built systems.

Kerbalism is definitely worth it. Just for the revamped science system alone. and SkyhawkKerbalism is a great set of configs for it.

My current setup is pretty heavily modded, but seems to work OK (at least for the start - hope it doesn't blow up later on):

• Major gameplay mods: JNSQ, Principia, Kerbalism, Strategia, KCT, Extraplanetary Launchpads, Sandcastle, ScanSat, Rational Resources, SystemHeat (mainly because it is a dependency of FFT), TestFlight (with the "Less Real Test Flight" configs), KAS (but not KIS, I actually like the stock inventory), Connected Living Space, kOS (+ EmbeddedKOSKirkuits) and of course SkyhawkScienceSystem
• Part packs: BDB (hard dependency of SSS, and a great parts mod!), all of Nerteas' "Near Future" series except the aircraft mods (because I suck at flying airplanes), ReStock (but not Restock+ because I already have BDB), FFT,  SSPE, Cryo Tanks, Cryogenic Engines, Modular Launch Pads
• Contract Packs:  Research Advancement, Clever Sats (not sure how well that one works with Principia, though - I'll see when I'm finally at the stage where I can accept a sat contract), Bases and Stations Reborn, CommNet Relays (same caveat as with the other sat contract pack - might not work well with Principia), Career Evolution. And switched off tourism and rescue contracts in the config - I hate those.
• A couple of QoL mods: Alarm Enhancements, FMRS, KSP PartVolume (to make the stock inventory usable :-)), Precise Editor, RCS Build Aid, Janitors' Closet, AtmosphereAutopilot (did I mention that I suck at flying planes?)
• Visual Mods: None. My potato laptop barely handles all of that stuff above :-)

And of course all of their dependencies, and some minor local patches, like fixes to Strategias' "Local Science I" (which normally gives a bonus to KSC science, which is completely useless for JNSQ because JNSQ removed all of the KSC mini biomes - I hacked it up to give 5% bonus to Kerbin science instead) and a tweak to MLPs Launch Rails to get launch angles between vertical and 85° in 0.5° increments (an 88.5° launch angle makes for a nice unguided sounding rocket flight with the initial SSS sounding rocket probe core atop a Shrimp SRB to just above the Karman line and splashdown into the ocean some 30 km east of the KSC).

Edited July 28, 2022 by RKunze
fixed typo

[Damien212]

Hi, I'm a new player to this mod (not to kerbalism and other mods though, just to the Skyhawk mods) and it seems a fantastic setup. Especially the tech tree layout.  I'm playing on JNSQ and as I've seen mentioned before, the early battery powered probes don't have enough power to fulfil their missions. Vanguard I is fine because solar panels but Vanguard II and III die quite quickly. I had to stick some solar panels on Vanguard II & III and Explorer I to get any usable life out of them. Pioneer IV has nowhere near enough power to reach the moon (especially because probes can't hibernate when using kerbalism) and although it has a photograph experiment built in, it has no storage space for a film sample and can't transmit the photo anyway.

WIll these early probes be getting a balance pass soon (assuming the BDB part specs are affected by this mod)? Or does anyone have any updated configs that they're using in the meantime? Thanks.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Damien212

[epicpupster239]

more or less unplayable for me, as the part switch for tanks does not work at all, every fuel tank is stuck using kerolox. There should be a version that doesn't add the complexity of the different fuels.

 

[EchoLima]

Is there a way to use the SkyhawkKerbalism12HourDays config without the rest of the Skyhawk mod? I'd like to have Kerbalism work with JNSQ correctly but don't (yet!) want to play with BDB/Skyhawk.

Alternatively, is multiplying all the Supplies values by 2 in the default config enough to make Kerbalism balanced with JNSQ (or is there something else I'm missing)?

[Probird_23]

I wrote a couple tech tree configs for my personal use, is anyone willing to proofread them?