[1.12.x] Parallax - PBR Terrain and Surface Objects [2.0.8]

[SheepDog2142]

First off I'm definitely planning to support on Patreon for at least a month or so. So everything below is a critique and should not be taken as hating on the creator.

That said, there's something that needs to be addressed. This trend is becoming more common, and it's likely going to encourage other modders to follow suit. Charging $5.50 for a single mod is a steep ask. When you add up the costs—like $12.50 per month for just three mods such as RSS Reborn, Blackrack's volumetric clouds, and this one—it becomes significant. A price point of $1 or $2 per mod seems more reasonable. When you compare it to other communities where similar or even greater effort is required to produce content, this feels high for the value you receive each month.

Moreover, this model creates a strong incentive for mods to remain unreleased. Once a mod is released, the creator potentially forfeits a substantial monthly income, which could be seen as a disincentive to finalize and freely release the mod. This isn’t simply about supporting the modder—it's about locking a full release behind a paywall for an undisclosed amount of time with no clear incentive to transition from paid to free. When you look at other ksp creators who have this patron setup with a locked release of their mod, they are bringing in multiple thousands of dollars a month for a few hours of work each week—work that's supposed to be driven by passion, not treated as a paid job. Im not saying its good or bad im just pointing out what I think many people don't notice or think about.

I know this post likely won't change anything, and this trend will continue regardless, but I felt it was important to point out. That said, I do appreciate the work modders like linx put into creating content like this, and I understand the need for support. It's a tough balance to strike.

Edited August 26 by SheepDog2142

[coyotesfrontier]

3 hours ago, SheepDog2142 said:

First off I'm definitely planning to support on Patreon for at least a month or so. So everything below is a critique and should not be taken as hating on the creator.

That said, there's something that needs to be addressed. This trend is becoming more common, and it's likely going to encourage other modders to follow suit. Charging $5.50 for a single mod is a steep ask. When you add up the costs—like $12.50 per month for just three mods such as RSS Reborn, Blackrack's volumetric clouds, and this one—it becomes significant. A price point of $1 or $2 per mod seems more reasonable. When you compare it to other communities where similar or even greater effort is required to produce content, this feels high for the value you receive each month.

Moreover, this model creates a strong incentive for mods to remain unreleased. Once a mod is released, the creator potentially forfeits a substantial monthly income, which could be seen as a disincentive to finalize and freely release the mod. This isn’t simply about supporting the modder—it's about locking a full release behind a paywall for an undisclosed amount of time with no clear incentive to transition from paid to free. When you look at other ksp creators who have this patron setup with a locked release of their mod, they are bringing in multiple thousands of dollars a month for a few hours of work each week—work that's supposed to be driven by passion, not treated as a paid job. Im not saying its good or bad im just pointing out what I think many people don't notice or think about.

I know this post likely won't change anything, and this trend will continue regardless, but I felt it was important to point out. That said, I do appreciate the work modders like linx put into creating content like this, and I understand the need for support. It's a tough balance to strike.

You are absolutely correct. If there is no prohibition against paid mods in a community (as historically with minecraft), they will quickly proliferate and create a negative environment for users of mods.

There is probably a desire among certain relevant modders to create an environment where paid mods are normalized and promoted, given the very large financial incentives available.

I do hope Linx truly intends to follow through on his admission to make this update free at one point.

Edited August 26 by coyotesfrontier

[Manul]

2 hours ago, SheepDog2142 said:

for a few hours of work each week

That's optimistic This is KSP modding: you start testing something in the evening and it keeps glitching until the early morning when you have an hour or two left to sleep. So it's days of sleep deprivation rather than "a few hours a week". And I'm just doing some bugfixing for other's mods or making IVAs and writing configs for MFD screens, making anything from scratch would require even more sleep deprivation.

[SheepDog2142]

9 minutes ago, Manul said:

That's optimistic This is KSP modding: you start testing something in the evening and it keeps glitching until the early morning when you have an hour or two left to sleep. So it's days of sleep deprivation rather than "a few hours a week". And I'm just doing some bugfixing for other's mods or making IVAs and writing configs for MFD screens, making anything from scratch would require even more sleep deprivation.

I understand that as I have a mod on CKAN myself and am developing a few others as well as built a whole custom fork of LRTR for internal use on a mp server with friends. The point still stands and is relevant. Plus say this trend continues and mods like blude dog and near future series and others go to the pay model. We could see a time where it cost $50 to just get a decently modded KSP save. At that point we might as well be funding KSP2s development.

This is getting off topic though to the mod itself. 

Edited August 26 by SheepDog2142

[Manul]

19 minutes ago, SheepDog2142 said:

We could see a time where it cost $50 to just get a decently modded KSP save.

I'm not a fan of mods being DLCs, just reminding that KSP modding is not a way to make easy money. Should money be made at all - that's another question.

[NuclearBaloney]

8 hours ago, Gameslinx said:

Can you send me your KSP.log file?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BOnUeocpqQ_E3InqYwwwH-xqSf9Jyfby/view?usp=sharing

[Gameslinx]

1 hour ago, NuclearBaloney said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BOnUeocpqQ_E3InqYwwwH-xqSf9Jyfby/view?usp=sharing

You have a lot of ModuleManager files in your GameData. Make sure you have the latest installed. Also, there's no way for me to tell, but double check you've installed Parallax_StockTextures and Parallax_ScatterTextures correctly.

Inside your GameData/Parallax_StockTextures folder you should also have a _Scatters folder (amongst many others) - if you do, you've done everything correctly

Let me know if that helps

Edited August 26 by Gameslinx

[OrbitalManeuvers]

2 hours ago, NuclearBaloney said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BOnUeocpqQ_E3InqYwwwH-xqSf9Jyfby/view?usp=sharing

Pardon my butting in ... just wanted to offer a couple other observations:

[LOG 14:56:49.340] AssemblyLoader: Loading assembly at C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\KIS\Plugins\MiniAVC-V2.dll

You'll want to get rid of miniavc. See the mod ZeroMiniAVC for more info.

And here's why multiple module managers are bad:

[LOG 14:56:49.994] [ModuleManager] version 3.1.0.0 at C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.3.1.0.dll won the election against
Version 3.1.0.0 C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.4.1.3.dll 
Version 3.1.0.0 C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.4.1.4.dll 
Version 3.1.0.0 C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.4.2.1.dll 
Version 3.1.0.0 C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.4.2.2.dll 
Version 3.1.0.0 C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\GameData\ModuleManager.4.2.3.dll

What's happening here is that KSP has loaded version 3.1.0 which is an entire version behind. You'll want to delete all module manager dlls except for 4.2.3.

[dave1904]

9 hours ago, Gameslinx said:

Cheers

With Continued, it's possible to write rescale patches now so over the next few days I'm going to make some for (most) scales and bundle them into a download that people can choose from. For now, it should be the same story - Square the rescale factor and that is your new density multiplier in the Global config. As before there is a limit (hardware limit to how large the buffer that holds the scatter data can be), but it should be slightly higher. Let me know if you run into any issues, hope it goes smoothly  

I didn't even need to change anything in the settings. So far performance is way better. Especially in low orbit and approaching the surface. 10 out of 10 :)) 

[Gameslinx]

22 minutes ago, dave1904 said:

I didn't even need to change anything in the settings. So far performance is way better. Especially in low orbit and approaching the surface. 10 out of 10 :)) 

I'm so glad to hear!

Anyway, here is a module manager patch for 3.5 scale. Create a .cfg file in your GameData folder, name it anything, and add this:

// Parallax Rescale Config - 2.5x

@ParallaxScatters:FOR[ParallaxRescaleTwoPointFive]
{
    @Body,*
    {
        @Scatter,*
        {
            @Distribution
            {
                // Pop mult is an int, we need to round to nearest int (6)
                // Increase spawn chance to make up the rest
                @populationMultiplier *= 6
                @spawnChance *= 1.0417
            }

            // Uncomment this if you want the sizes of each patch of scatters to be the same as Stock
            // Word of warning - Your KSC might become overgrown!

            //@DistributionNoise
            //{
            //    @frequency *= 6.25
            //}
        }
    }
}

// Need this after Parallax applies its PQSmods
@Kopernicus:AFTER[ParallaxStock]
{
    @Body,*
    {
        @PQS
        {
            @Mods
            {
                @Parallax
                {
                    // Subdivision radius scales linearly with area

                    // SubdivisionLevel is also an int, round down to nearest
                    // It also scales with log2(area), so only need to add 1 per power of 2 scale
                    @subdivisionRadius *= 2.5
                    @subdivisionLevel += 2
                }
            }
        }
    }
}

Uncomment the DistributionNoise node if you want the sizes of each patch of scatters to be the same as Stock. Word of warning - the KSC might become overgrown if you do  

Edit: I've not actually tested this (only the 2.5 version so far), so there might be some extra things to tweak

Edited August 26 by Gameslinx

[Gameslinx]

@dave1904 In case you don't see - I've edited my post above to include the rescale config for the terrain too - it'll fix gaps in the terrain, but also let you enjoy the cool tessellation quality as if you were running stock scale.

[dave1904]

29 minutes ago, Gameslinx said:

@dave1904 In case you don't see - I've edited my post above to include the rescale config for the terrain too - it'll fix gaps in the terrain, but also let you enjoy the cool tessellation quality as if you were running stock scale.

Thanks. Will try it out tomorrow and give feedback. I've done 2 mun missions today and performance was so satisfying. 

My fan speeds on my CPU 12900k seem to be way lower. Not exactly a benchmark but I'm pretty certain I'm not imagining it. 

[Viper_214]

I've never really used google drive is that how i do that https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VHqBfk0Fh7mmFnaagsOrwQSLfZh7I5Wn/view?usp=sharing

[OrbitalManeuvers]

14 hours ago, Viper_214 said:

I've never really used google drive is that how i do that https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VHqBfk0Fh7mmFnaagsOrwQSLfZh7I5Wn/view?usp=sharing

Based on the fact that you have both KopernicusExpansion and OPM ... I'm gonna guess that somehow the Kopernicus folder got deleted or something? Anyway, you're missing Kopernicus, and you don't have Parallax at all ... ? 

[WRN 17:02:25.992] AssemblyLoader: Assembly 'KopernicusExpansion.EVAFootprints' has not met dependency 'Kopernicus' V1.0.0

[aviin]

I am loving the new release so far.  Smoother and nicer all around.  Environment-wise, between you and @blackrack, KSP is looking stunning.

To anyone questioning if @Gameslinx or @blackrack deserve some of your hard-earned money, understand that they are both giving you a HUGE BARGAIN.  The amount of time and effort they put into these things and they give it to you for FREE if you wait or for a pittance if you want it now.  Do the right thing and get on Patreon support them.  You are helping them and doing YOURSELF and even bigger favor.

[NuclearBaloney]

18 hours ago, Gameslinx said:

You have a lot of ModuleManager files in your GameData. Make sure you have the latest installed. Also, there's no way for me to tell, but double check you've installed Parallax_StockTextures and Parallax_ScatterTextures correctly.

Inside your GameData/Parallax_StockTextures folder you should also have a _Scatters folder (amongst many others) - if you do, you've done everything correctly

Let me know if that helps

Thanks! I got it working and running well!

[SergeantBlueforce]

1 hour ago, aviin said:

I am loving the new release so far.  Smoother and nicer all around.  Environment-wise, between you and @blackrack, KSP is looking stunning.

To anyone questioning if @Gameslinx or @blackrack deserve some of your hard-earned money, understand that they are both giving you a HUGE BARGAIN.  The amount of time and effort they put into these things and they give it to you for FREE if you wait or for a pittance if you want it now.  Do the right thing and get on Patreon support them.  You are helping them and doing YOURSELF and even bigger favor.

Apologies to @Gameslinx for starting a ongoing discussion on paid mod ethics in their release thread. I wasn't going to say any more on this topic to avoid encouragement of further discussion, but the cat's clearly out of the bag, so I feel I ought to make the counter-argument.

Since the days of yore, it has remained an unwritten contract among modding communities that the work they do is done for free. It's no less difficult than real development work, but for decades modders have found reasons to do it without monetary incentive. Donations are fine, but in the end, if you are no longer willing to do modding without a guarantee of monetary return, then you stop.
It's easy to argue that modders owe the end user nothing, and it cannot be denied that many of the latter are impatient, demanding, ungrateful, and outright un-empathetic regarding the enormous effort made by modders to improve the games they play. This is true, but it is conversely just as true that no one is forced to start modding, and that the work should be as much for the modder themselves as the users.

However this isn't just a matter of ethos, but of practicality, as once you open the door to paid mods, things start to get very murky. If some mods are good enough to charge for, which others can be considered "worthy" of doing the same? How much is one mod worth against another? How much can users be expected to pay? What do we do about forks, or changes of ownership? This situation can, in worst case, lead to irreparable schisms between modders (which I have seen elsewhere) or potentially even kill a modding community entirely.  In a legal aspect, there is also the fact that you are charging for modifications made to someone else's product, without the obligation (or often even the means) to ensure the same level of quality control as a professional development studio.

To @Gameslinx, the work you do is of exceptional quality. You, blackrack, and others working on the area of graphical modding have done astounding work in enhancing KSP's visual fidelity. I'll happily donate to all of you numerous more times for what you've done to enhance my enjoyment of the game, but it remains my personal opinion that mandating payment for access cannot be justified. Paid early access/development with a guarantee of release by a certain date is perhaps just on the edge of what can be excused, but even that's a grey area.

TL;DR: Maybe it's not fair given the time, effort and cost that modding (especially of this calibre) requires, but paid mods can potentially poison a modding community. So to be entirely frank...

On 8/24/2024 at 3:28 PM, Gameslinx said:

one could argue that I chose a hobby with these requirements and that doesn't justify it.

No, it doesn't.

[DeadJohn]

Turning Parallax into a monthly subscription is IMO unfortunate. I might pay once but will never subscribe. If Parallax 2 is in development for a year it becomes a $66 mod. That's on top of a different paid mod that cost early adopters approx. $90 and counting.

Common advice to keep canceling and renewing becomes too much micromanagement, and then provides an incentive to drag out release cycles with one development update per month.

I hope planet pack authors continue to support Parallax 1.

[Spaceman.Spiff]

3 hours ago, SergeantBlueforce said:

Since the days of yore, it has remained an unwritten contract among modding communities that the work they do is done for free.

An unwritten contract is no contract at all. Linx is free to do whatever he damn well pleases with his own IP.  
In addition, this mod has been free for quite a while. If you don’t want to pay for the new version, don't!

Or if you’re truly morally outraged at someone attempting to gain some compensation for immense amounts of work, just don’t use the mod at all! 

These comments from someone who isn’t going to be paying for the mod, but has the wherewithal to not complain about it as though it would cause personal harm to me or a puppy. 

[SergeantBlueforce]

1 hour ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

An unwritten contract is no contract at all. Linx is free to do whatever he damn well pleases with his own IP.  
In addition, this mod has been free for quite a while. If you don’t want to pay for the new version, don't!

I am both powerless to stop him nor possess any desire to do so. There is no regulation or rule stating he cannot charge a fee for his work, nor is there any governing authority that can avert the potential pitfalls of such a decision.

1 hour ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

Or if you’re truly morally outraged at someone attempting to gain some compensation for immense amounts of work, just don’t use the mod at all! 

Why on Earth would I stop using it? I think his mod is fantastic, and I will continue to use it for as long as I am able. I don't feel any kind of moral outrage, indignation, or animosity. I believe wholeheartedly that the emergence of a paid mod market will have disastrous effects on the modding community as a whole, but I don't seek any kind of moral vindication either; on the contrary, I hope that if paid mods do become standard, then nothing else will change.
I don't have a horse in this race though, so the consequences are not mine.

Edited August 27 by SergeantBlueforce
Typo

[defoma]

Hey, what's the difference between the free one (available on CKAN) and the paid on (only on Patreon)? The free one is pretty good but I sort of want to know how good the paid version one is in comparison. To know if I want to buy it or not.

[Krakatoa]

4 hours ago, defoma said:

Hey, what's the difference between the free one (available on CKAN) and the paid on (only on Patreon)? The free one is pretty good but I sort of want to know how good the paid version one is in comparison. To know if I want to buy it or not.

Gameslinx gave a pretty thorough breakdown in this post.

[Gargamel]

Here’s the deal folks.     Discussion of paid mods (including this mod)  is off topic for this particular thread.    Mod release threads are generally used for development and tech support.   If you’d like to discuss the ethics and whatnot of mods in general being behind a paywall, please start a new thread in the mod discussion subs.   
 

As to the existence of paid mods, the forum has no control over what people do off the forum.    What we do have control over is the rules of the forum, one of our rules is that self promotion of any kind is forbidden.    Therefore modders cannot advertise or even mention the fact they have paid mods here on the forums, without specific permission from the CM’s.     And since the CM’s no longer exist, that permission will never come.  Therefore, we kindly ask that discussion of specific mods being paid or not be taken off site.  
 

We understand the reality of the situation, we really do.   But our rules are our rules.  They initially were written to prevent 3rd parties from freely advertising on a commercial site, but they are now kept in place to keep the modding community here on the forums as pure and open as possible.    
 

Further posts on this topic will be removed as off topic for the thread.   

[Gargamel]

Some valid questions have been raised regarding this topic.   If you would like, direct any discussion of the issue here:

 

[dave1904]

You know what's funny. I've waited for the new parallax for ages. Guess what happens. My 1200 euro ASUS monitor decides to die just after the warranty expires..... Thankfully my girlfriend repairs those things for a living but now I have to play on 1080p :(((