Non-Binary Kerbals and Gender Non-conforming Kerbals In KSP2?

[Pthigrivi]

15 minutes ago, saxappeal89129 said:

The fact that gender fluidity and sexual orientation are being discussed in this forum is inappropriate (in my opinion), and if it is considered in the game then that's a decision that each person can make on their own; its a personal private choice just like in the "professional world".

Again, I think that's the beauty of purposeful ambiguity. Each player is offered the opportunity see what they wish, just like in music, movies, or any art. All kinds of different people with different beliefs and different identities look like the kinds kerbals that are possible in KSP, so the world is our oyster. I think we're in vehement agreement. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Vanamonde

[BigStar Aerospace]

45 minutes ago, saxappeal89129 said:

sexual orientation

This has not been discussed.

 

45 minutes ago, saxappeal89129 said:

being discussed in this forum is inappropriate

[snip] If you don't like that it's being discussed then don't discuss it. The mods allow thread this because many similar arguments were made back when the female kerbals were just a thread too. Have there been non-binary and gender non-conforming people in space? We don't know, so far no space agency has sent a transperson into space nor has anyone been open about their gender identities lest they be cisgender. But I do know for sure that we transpeople do work in the aerospace industry on the ground, myself being one of them. I personally have met people from and worked for NASA, I've also met people from Sierra Space, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Rocketlab, and a few other smaller aerospace corporations. I personally have been to Houston, Texas to present a project in front of Crew Dragon, Space Shuttle, and Roscosmos astronauts, as well as top officials from NASA and the previously mentioned aerospace companies. I've been given a private tour of one Lockheed Martin manufacturing facility and the Colorado facility for Sierra Space, myself seeing Dream Chaser with my own two eyes.

I ask for representation in a part of a community that itself is supposed to represent the legitimate reality of the aerospace industry. I am personally proud of working up the courage to ask such a question here, in addition to my continual debate here against people that think the representation for a community that they're exteriority does not give them the right to such opinions in the first place. I am a real person that plans on devising their own aerospace company in the future and has already constituted the early designs for a fully reusable rocket capable of lifting 500 metric tonnes into Low Earth Orbit. I plan to put myself ahead in this world, yet all I ask from anyone else in this simple and wonderful forum is representation in a game I hold dearly to my heart. [snip]

Edited October 27, 2022 by BigStar Aerospace

[kerbiloid]

I can't see the idea of such detalization in the game about human-like cartoonish bugs in spacesuits where you need a zooming glass to see them detailed, and all of them are either sitting in cabin, or hidden in saves, or crashing, or exploding.

It's understandable in the highly detailed role-playing games like Skyrim or Fallout, but what's next? Gendered tetris?

[ColdJ]

14 hours ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

AN·DROG·Y·NOUS
/anˈdräjənəs/
Adjective
Partly male and partly female in appearance; of indeterminate gender identity or sexual category.
"A stunningly androgynous dancer."

I don't know what you look like, but truly androgynous people are rare in society, and certainly are not all non binary.

I am very glad that you are doing well in the space industry and hope that no one ever based your right to work there on how you personally identify yourself or your personal sex life.

I wonder, if the person who had made kerbals and a variant had never mentioned the word female, would we be having this debate? If they were called cylinder and ovoid would you still insist that one is male and the other female?

( to all who keep saying square headed, It is a cylinder with rounded ends. Have a good look.)

A post said that only I and one other mentioned labels but this post has 2 in the title "Non-Binary" and "Gender Non-conforming". These are labels designed to separate and ostracise people. It doesn't matter which side of the argument you are on, the result is the same.

You hopefully know by now that you are valid human being, no matter what those that have been brought up in close minded households say.

We all are. We are born the way we are born. We do not choose to be a certain way, we just are.

So insisting that a game character that has only got a different head as a variation is somehow not representitive of you is just taking something innocent and trying to make it complex.

I am all for customisation as being possible, to make unique Kerbals that suit your style. But if we keep making it about human society then the makers may as well leave all future kerbals with opaque helmets on, then remove all names and just call them "clone" with a number after the word.

I am old enough to know that when a topic is heavily ingrained in someone that no matter what logic or examples you provide, they will not take in what you are saying, so I will make this my last post.

I hope you do well in your future venture and wish you luck. I also hope that one day that nobody ever cares how you were born, just that you are safe and healthy.

[Bej Kerman]

7 hours ago, saxappeal89129 said:

The fact that gender fluidity and sexual orientation are being discussed in this forum is inappropriate

Our existence is not inappropriate. And there is a difference between being gender fluid and e.g. trans, before you keep lumping them into one.

On that note, you must think KSP 1 Kerbals having sexual orientations is inappropriate, right?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Bej Kerman

[Bej Kerman]

9 hours ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

ANYWAYS! Everyone, thank you for getting this threat to 6 pages, it means ALLOT to me that many of you are willing to defend the identities of others even if you have no personal way of relating. You are the types of people that will help our society move to better and happier places! SO AGAIN!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

Means a lot to me, thank you

[Bej Kerman]

27 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

So insisting that a game character that has only got a different head as a variation is somehow not representitive of you is just taking something innocent and trying to make it complex.

 

That would hold water if their orientations weren't explicitly defined in-game, but they are and all of them are binary.

[Vl3d]

Please stop discussing people's sexual orientation. It's a private matter.

[KerikBalm]

16 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Tried? They were rather successful! Not a soul complaining about female kerbals right now.

It is over, the effort and resources were spent. Removing female kerbals won't, for example, fix the robotic drift bug.

16 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

But having non-binary kerbals steps a line for some reason.

I see it as just more of a distraction that will take resources away from the core gameplay that actually matters.

That said, as I have repeatedly said in this thread, since they have already wasted (IMO) their resources on Kerbal customization, I have no issue with removing any gender restrictions on kerbal customization options. 

If you want the eye-lashes and hair styles that go with "conventionally female" kerbals, and a beard, or whatever, go for it.

[KerikBalm]

13 hours ago, MechBFP said:

If you read the rest of the thread, that has already been answered, but to reiterate it is because people like being able to create characters in video games that are representatives of who they are, or perhaps who they want to be.

It's the same reason why people like character customizers in games, it is the reason why there are meme's about people spending a 100 hours in the character customizer before even starting the actual game.

I am not one of those people, and I didn't think KSP was one of those games...

I am not alone (hmm, perhaps I should start a poll, but how to avoid sampling bias?)

I view the Kerbal customization that they've already shown for KSP2 as a waste of development resources. I do not wish further resources to be wasted on it.

9 hours ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

I am a real person that plans on devising their own aerospace company in the future and has already constituted the early designs for a fully reusable rocket capable of lifting 500 metric tonnes into Low Earth Orbit.

Just curious, are you even out of school?

While ambition is often good, this comes across as naïve to the true challenges. I suspect "early design" is more of a "vague concept", perhaps with some rather basic calculations as to required masses and dimensions.

15 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

To have one model of Kerbal with a square head and a widows peak reads as all kerbals are male, stated or not. 

Widows peaks are not male specific.

Neither are "square heads"...

a quick google search:

Spoiler

 

 

[Pthigrivi]

12 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

I view the Kerbal customization that they've already shown for KSP2 as a waste of development resources. I do not wish further resources to be wasted on it.

Its just a different personal sense of priority. I think the current designs and animations for Kerbals are absolutely glorious. They’re cute, they’re funny, you can see them reacting both physically and emotionally to forces. Its this little bit of light hearted charm and personality that gives meaning to the game. And a lot of players like to role play and have little stories they’re playing out and giving Kerbals individual personalities helps with that. And if thats not your thing thats okay! Im personally more interested in life support than I am in multiplayer, but I recognize a lot of other people feel just the opposite. There are a lot of complex components to this game.
 

20 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

While ambition is often good, this comes across as naïve to the true challenges. I suspect "early design" is more of a "vague concept", perhaps with some rather basic calculations as to required masses and dimensions.

I think no matter where folks are in their careers STEM fields are awesome and we should be nothing but encouraging for folks to dream big. 

 

24 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

Widows peaks are not male specific.

Of course there are other examples. Again this is about symbols and subjective perceptions. When I say ‘bell-bottoms’ most people think 70’s. Are all bell-bottoms from the 70’s? Of course not. Its just a widely held association. 

 

[Aliquido]

Can we all just agree that whatever PD does in the game (Whether it be enby kerbals) is fine? I don't really see the need to have it out of the game ya know? It's not like you have to make your kerbal enby.

19 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

And? The game already has female kerbals. The game already has male kerbals. If you're against the idea of NB kerbals, then it's probably not the "kerbal" in "NB kerbal" you don't like.

Imagine not reading the entire sentence where Iiterally say "I'm not against you choosing your gender identity"

Edited October 27, 2022 by Aliquido

[kerbiloid]

Based on the today's debate the "LGBTQIA+" will be officially renamed into "LGBTQIAK+".

Upd.
Just a hypothesis, not insisting.

Edited October 27, 2022 by kerbiloid

[Concodroid]

The fact that there's even an argument here is absurd.
All they need to do is allow square-head shaped kerbals to have ponytails and round-head kerbals to have short hair. It's extraordinarily simple. There's no reason here for 7 pages of back and forth. They're space frogs. If you find yourself represented with square-head ponytailed frogs, great! I'm happy for you. I personally don't get it. But that's OK.

For those that care, let them have that option. For those that don't, it really doesn't affect us at all.

[BigStar Aerospace]

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Just curious, are you even out of school?

No, I'm in high school.

 

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

While ambition is often good, this comes across as naïve to the true challenges. I suspect "early design" is more of a "vague concept", perhaps with some rather basic calculations as to required masses and dimensions.

Not only do I have basic calculations, but complicated ones too! I've 3D printed a model of the engine to be used on the craft. I also know the number of stages and the overall design of the vehicle because I've started multiple blueprints for different variants of such a vehicle. Remember Starship still isn't in it's final form and it's been iterated since before it was announced. I'm one kid developing such a vehicle, so yes, it might take a decade, but it's still a good start for a singular person.

24 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Based on the today's debate the "LGBTQIA+" will be officially renamed into "LGBTQIAK+".

That's fairly offensive, especially since your previous comments force me to believe you're not even part of the community. It's not up to nor will we allow anyone outside of the community to decide the name of our Alphabet Mafia.

10 minutes ago, Concodroid said:

For those that care, let them have that option. For those that don't, it really doesn't affect us at all.

I agree, thank you. Although being androgynous or gender-nonconforming representative goes much further than just square heads with pony tails. This is why customization is important, it will also mean that they could develop a randomization system for kerbals offline so the kerbal populations has actual genetic diversity and it has deeper lore just to make the game more beautiful.

48 minutes ago, Aliquido said:

I'm not against you choosing your gender identity

Gender identity is not a choice, it goes so much deeper. I personally would not choose to be a part of a minority that people hate just because "it goes against proper grammar" or whatever their argument may be. We choose to call gender conforming people by the pronouns and identities that they so wish us to and yet many still refuse to pay us the same courtesy. I'm not mad at your assumption that we choose, but this is one reason I enjoy this thread because it means I can help educate people on our community, lives, and personal feelings. I personally denied the existence of transpeople earlier in my life until I finally understood their reasoning, then a few years later becoming one myself because I found that I feel the same way many of them do. Apologies if this sounds rude in any way, currently I'm in class so I don't have time to reread. I just wish to explain my point of view, as we each have our own and that's what makes us beautiful as people.

[BigStar Aerospace]

7 hours ago, ColdJ said:

So insisting that a game character that has only got a different head as a variation is somehow not representitive of you is just taking something innocent and trying to make it complex.

Complexity is the reason the world is beautiful, so making a game more representative allows more players to add to the beauty of the game. Additions may make the game more complex, but that just adds beauty. Then again, that all depends on perspective.

[Aliquido]

Again, why can't we just accept what PD does with the game and if they add enby kerbals?

[BigStar Aerospace]

3 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

life support

I absolutely can't wait for such features, I like the idea of needing a plant nursery module on my space stations so they're sustainable. It will give our builds more purpose.

Just now, Aliquido said:

Again, why can't we just accept what PD does with the game and if they add enby kerbals?

Because if we just "accept things", we're never bound to move forward. The U.S. didn't accept the fact that the Soviets were first in orbit, so we made an orbital rocket, they got someone into space, so we sent people into space, they got someone to EVA out of their capsule, so we got two people to EVA. Then we landed on the Moon, because we wouldn't accept them to be ahead of us and if they landed on the Moon before us, we wouldn't applied glorious efforts to go to Mars and other planets. We didn't accept defeat, so they did. I will always ask for this until it's added and slowly I will gain more of a following until the devs have no choice but to add it because I'm so adamant about it. It's a fight worth fighting for the others that don't know how to speak up for themselves.

[Aliquido]

In the end, it's not your game, PD will add enby kerbals if they want to or not, it's their choice, I just don't see why this merit's such a long thread.

[BigStar Aerospace]

10 minutes ago, Aliquido said:

In the end, it's not your game, PD will add enby kerbals if they want to or not, it's their choice, I just don't see why this merit's such a long thread.

Every accomplishment in human history only started because of a long conversation between many different points of view.

Edited October 27, 2022 by BigStar Aerospace

[Bej Kerman]

4 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

21 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Tried? They were rather successful! Not a soul complaining about female kerbals right now.

It is over, the effort and resources were spent. Removing female kerbals won't, for example, fix the robotic drift bug.

Apples and oranges.

[Aliquido]

And I'm saying that this conversation is long enough to grab PD's attention and they will decide if they add enby kerbals or not.

 

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, Aliquido said:

20 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

And? The game already has female kerbals. The game already has male kerbals. If you're against the idea of NB kerbals, then it's probably not the "kerbal" in "NB kerbal" you don't like.

Imagine not reading the entire sentence where Iiterally say "I'm not against you choosing your gender identity"

Then why are you against NB people being able to choose their gender identity? Why is it that male and female kerbals completely fine, but NB kerbals cross a line? 

The "they're just aliens" excuse needs doing away with. That ship sailed when Squad implemented genders in the first place.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Bej Kerman

[razark]

2 minutes ago, Aliquido said:

In the end, it's not your game, PD will add enby kerbals if they want to or not, it's their choice, I just don't see why this merit's such a long thread.

With that logic, the entire suggestions section should be done away with.

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, Aliquido said:

And I'm saying that this conversation is long enough to grab PD's attention and they will decide if they add enby kerbals or not.

That would be true in the case the devs didn't care about the community, but they do.