Developer Insights #17 - Engines Archetypes

[Bej Kerman]

6 hours ago, Catto said:

I dont understand my monkey brain dont understand

The engines use Methalox now. The image is a table from the KSP wiki that contains stats for all the non-DLC engines. This implies that the engines in KSP 1 have ran off of Methalox all this time.

[Jacob Kerman]

I will never forget that Deep Space engines are most akward at parties. Also, I like the whole "MOAR" thing. Those engines look great! Keep up the great work, and always remember what a positive impact you guys are making on everyone!

16 hours ago, Catto said:

I dont understand my monkey brain dont understand

Methalox or Metha-Lox is a type of binary rocket fuel composed of liquid oxygen (oxidizer) and liquid methane combustible. This substitutes the common Liquid Hydrogen (Hydro-Lox) that is associated with liquid fuel rockets.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Jacob Kerman

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

6 hours ago, The Aziz said:

One of the earliest showcases of VAB UI

 

On my phone - what are the green flags - and why? 

[The Aziz]

Nobody exactly explained those but since we're going to have whole workspaces instead of single craft per single file, my guess is those with the flags (with rocket on the pad icon) are chosen for launch.

[ondrafialka]

I really like the idea of engine archetypes and look forward to playing with them. I dont really care if the fuel is called methane or liquid fuel or whatever, I just take it as one of the game's mechanisms that smartly balance between easy gameplay and usefull amount of realism. I have played with hydrolox engines when building Saturn V replica in RSS, but prefer the simplification of one fuel type when exploring stock system planets. 

[Pthigrivi]

On 12/20/2022 at 6:20 PM, GigFiz said:

This was definitely the direction my brain went with this debate. People are talking about "the way it really was", but this isn't a replica of humanity's space program, this is us guiding our happy LGM^TM through their own foray out into the galaxy; it is going to have similarities to ours, but there is no reason that it has follow the exact same path; it's not like Methalox isn't also perfectly viable fuel choice. And for jets, for one, that's not a big enough aspect to warrant a whole separate fuel. Besides, we don't make our jet fuel/avgas out of methane, but that's not because it isn't possible. Maybe Kerbin has less or harder to reach oil, but lots of easily accessible natural gas

This is a really good point. It's important in all this to know that though we are dealing with more or less real physics, Kerbals are fictional. They are the cute gateway to a game about physics, not a game about humans. They are stand ins for us, or maybe the most fool-heartedly optimistic version of us, but its a cartoon reality specifically designed to make rocketry and space travel approachable and digestible for almost anyone, ideally even for kids. I mean that. 8 year olds should be able to get something out of this. And yeah, maybe they aren't going to bust out a calculator and hard min-max a resource transfer supply run or nail a 10m target suicide burn. Those kinds of challenges should still be there and still hold rewards so the game has the kind of depth that keeps folks interested for thousands of hours, but at its heart things should be as simple as they can be. If that means bending cannon on industrial availability of different propellants in a game that has a very loose approach to cannon to begin with? Thats fine. Like you said at least its defined and modders can easily fill in the gaps

On 12/20/2022 at 6:44 PM, GigFiz said:

Oh, and for off-world VABs and such, an easy button to hide all the parts that you do not currently have the resources for.

For this probably grey out rather than hide. Players should always know what parts they have unlocked even if they cant afford them locally. That way they know "oh I can build this if I just ship in X resource from somewhere else." Crossover from another thread but its the same reason you don't want transmission time delay on unlocking parts, because it creates a lot of confusion over what parts you've unlocked and which parts you haven't in a very deep tech tree. When a thing is unlocked it should be unlocked everywhere, just greyed out if you can't currently afford it. 

9 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Nobody exactly explained those but since we're going to have whole workspaces instead of single craft per single file, my guess is those with the flags (with rocket on the pad icon) are chosen for launch.

I always thought maybe it was a distinction between "parts", "subassemblies" and "vessels". Based on the modification tools that symbol on the flag could indicate "vessels" and maybe even the SRB subassembly is technically a vessel prior to attachment and thats why it has a flag on it still? This system seems to have had a bunch of changes over the years so I could be wrong. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[Catto]

Thanks for the help guys i get it now

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 12/21/2022 at 10:47 AM, The Aziz said:

Nobody exactly explained those but since we're going to have whole workspaces instead of single craft per single file, my guess is those with the flags (with rocket on the pad icon) are chosen for launch.

I kind of thought that, too - but then there's the side booster on the one rocket.  It's also got a flag, and is highlighted differently from the rocket, also flagged, that it is apparently attached to.

 

Will be interesting to see if that actually makes it into game.

[tstein]

I see a lost opportunity to rename all engines in the "dog breed" style, following the terrier, poodle etc..   interestingly enough   it would make (besides the funny part) even easier for new players to realize the class of engine they are dealing with.   "Hey, what do I put in my minimus lande, a Pug Engine or a Mastiff engine.. I think the answer is pretty obvious

[tstein]

On 12/18/2022 at 4:04 AM, intelliCom said:

Implying that "Liquid Fuel" was Kerosene to begin with? It's always been ambiguous.
What I want to know is what OP meant by "brutish keralox". What are the differences between kerosene and methane as chemical rocket fuels? Besides of course the ease of ISRU with Methane.

Also, isn't methane a cryogenic fuel? Would we have to figure out how to manage cryogenic fuel storage? Does kerosene not have this cryogenics issue, hence why it might make more sense?

no no  Kerbalox.  like kerbals liquified

[Yellowburn10]

Wait, I just thought of something. Since liquid fuel is now considered methalox, what does that mean for the oceans of Eve? It's basically considered common knowledge that it's oceans are considered to be full of rocket fuel. However, it's density make it more consistent with something like keralox. Methalox is not dense enough to match whatever Eve's oceans are made of, so... now what?

[TheOrbitalMechanic]

17 minutes ago, Yellowburn10 said:

Wait, I just thought of something. Since liquid fuel is now considered methalox, what does that mean for the oceans of Eve? It's basically considered common knowledge that it's oceans are considered to be full of rocket fuel. However, it's density make it more consistent with something like keralox. Methalox is not dense enough to match whatever Eve's oceans are made of, so... now what?

Maybe the oceans, instead of being pure liquid methane (because that wouldn't make any sense), are made of some methane-rich, easily-refinable substance. Or maybe they drop the whole idea, like with Minmus now being glassy instead of icy.

[Pthigrivi]

For some reason I decided the oceans were sulfuric acid and the atmosphere was purple due to the presence of iodine. Not being a chemistry buff I did some googling to see if this made sense and came across this article:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0038092X04000131

[darthgently]

28 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

For some reason I decided the oceans were sulfuric acid and the atmosphere was purple due to the presence of iodine. Not being a chemistry buff I did some googling to see if this made sense and came across this article:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0038092X04000131

So Venus may make a good fuel production location some day

[Pthigrivi]

57 minutes ago, darthgently said:

So Venus may make a good fuel production location some day

Maybe? Venus is too hot because of its runaway greenhouse effect so the sulfuric acid is all in the atmosphere. Maybe like buoyant floating plants converting the gas to H2, O2, H20 and S as a byproduct? Or using nuclear on the surface? If Eve were above 184C and below 337C that would support liquid sulfuric acid oceans and gaseous iodine... though I'm not sure if it would be stable and stay purple? Im relying on my memories of high school chemistry. Sulfuric acid rain would gobble up most metals which might have an effect on what you can mine. It would also eat up your vessels and colonies but I doubt they'd get into that. Just pretend they have teflon coatings.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[regex]

20 hours ago, Yellowburn10 said:

It's basically considered common knowledge that it's oceans are considered to be full of rocket fuel.

Really? I always thought it was something more ... I don't know, realistic than literal rocket fuel.

20 hours ago, Yellowburn10 said:

However, it's density make it more consistent with something like keralox.

Is the density of that liquid actually stated in-game? Also, you do realize that "keralox" is a portmanteau of kerosene and liquid oxygen, right? Are the seas just a weird mix of both? That would imply that Eve has a temperature cold enough to liquefy oxygen.

20 hours ago, Yellowburn10 said:

Methalox is not dense enough to match whatever Eve's oceans are made of, so... now what?

Liquid methane and liquid oxygen, both in cryogenic conditions?

Seems to me that the oceans of Eve weren't ever rocket fuel.

[Yellowburn10]

5 hours ago, regex said:

Really? I always thought it was something more ... I don't know, realistic than literal rocket fuel.

Is the density of that liquid actually stated in-game? Also, you do realize that "keralox" is a portmanteau of kerosene and liquid oxygen, right? Are the seas just a weird mix of both? That would imply that Eve has a temperature cold enough to liquefy oxygen.

Liquid methane and liquid oxygen, both in cryogenic conditions?

Seems to me that the oceans of Eve weren't ever rocket fuel.

Ok, admittedly, it has been a while since I learned all this stuff a while ago, so I checked up on the ksp wiki for a refresher. It states the density of eve's oceans is 1.5 tons per cubic meter, and is pretty close to hydrogen peroxide in density (1.45 tons per cubic meter), which can be used as a monopropellant. The whole thing about rocket fuel is more so implied rather than a stated fact, but it's at least headcannon for me. Also, I did mean kerosene when I said keralox, kind of a force of habit at this point to say the latter. 

[Skorj]

I am very disapointed that the official name for liquid fuel isn't "explodium".  You will always be explodium to me.  "To sail on explodium seas ..."

[RB101]

I have to say I'm not really liking the new UI scheme...

I hope the Devs have an option to swap themes

[Vl3d]

1 minute ago, RB101 said:

I'm not really liking the new UI scheme

What don't you like about it?

[Bej Kerman]

29 minutes ago, RB101 said:

I have to say I'm not really liking the new UI scheme...

I hope the Devs have an option to swap themes

I'd say it's a brilliant show of the fact Intercept has qualified UI designers. KSP 1 has an awful UI that had your eyes travelling to opposite sides of the screen just to gather speed and altitude readouts. 

[Jacob Kerman]

4 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'd say it's a brilliant show of the fact Intercept has qualified UI designers. KSP 1 has an awful UI that had your eyes travelling to opposite sides of the screen just to gather speed and altitude readouts. 

thats true, the number of times I've over shot time warps and manuver nodes is astounding.

[Lowi_Sace]

On 12/16/2022 at 4:39 PM, 机械主教71号 said:

To be honest, I am quite disappointed to hear that there's only methane for the first day. I'd have been looking forward to diversifying liquid fuels for different tasks. Well, I'll wait.

Correct me if I am wrong, there will be more feul types, but the old engines just got converted to methane. Methane will be the base feul for most liquid engines, but not all. Heard in video's about hydrogen, metallic hydrogen, Helium3 and xenon feul and they said they will add a lot of feul types. Hope we will also get kerosine too (just love the saturn v), looks just so great

[Lowi_Sace]

On 12/16/2022 at 6:32 PM, TheOtherDave said:

I could see an argument for having an “officially recognized” realism overhaul/realistic progression plugin, and I can even see an argument for that being a 1st party thing, but the vanilla game needs to be fun and have as wide an appeal as they can get without losing sight of the core vision, and this compromise seems reasonable to me.

Would be a great DLC. More liquid feul types

I honestly would have loved more liquid feuls. Like also Like hydrogen (less dence) and kerosine (mostly for jet engines and maybe some regular engines). For the feul tanks I would have loved instead having 3 sizes for every diameter to just be able to select your diameter (and feul type)  and adjust the lenght (with some kind of slider)

[Bej Kerman]

18 minutes ago, Lowi_Sace said:

Correct me if I am wrong, there will be more feul types, but the old engines just got converted to methane. Methane will be the base feul for most liquid engines, but not all. Heard in video's about hydrogen, metallic hydrogen, Helium3 and xenon feul and they said they will add a lot of feul types. Hope we will also get kerosine too (just love the saturn v), looks just so great

Methalox, not methane.