The Mess Has Started - Two Different Mod Loaders

[dr.phees]

18 hours ago, Pleb said:

BepInEx is a great plugin that's been around for a while now and is used in lots of different Unity-based games for modding. Admittedly this is a very different approach than KSP1 modding had, as access to the game data files was much easier! 

Will BepInEx work on Linux and Mac?

[Superfluous J]

From what I can tell, yes.

...when KSP2 works on Linux and Mac

https://docs.bepinex.dev/articles/user_guide/installation/index.html

Edited February 27, 2023 by Superfluous J

[linuxgurugamer]

6 hours ago, Silvia Dragoness said:

Counterpoint:  I almost always prefer focused tools over generic ones--in this case, I prefer a game-specific solution over a universal Unity solution.  I vote SpaceWarp, until we have something more official.

Your preference is acknowledged, but do you have any facts to back it up?

8 hours ago, munix said:

SpaceWarp has support for being loaded through BepInEx since version 0.2.5 so there shouldn't be too much worry about incompatibility between the two.

I saw some reports it wasn't working, but haven't tested it yet.

I'd be leary of doing this, having one modloader load another mod loader which then loads mods is, IMHO, asking for trouble

[munix]

4 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I saw some reports it wasn't working, but haven't tested it yet.

I'm pretty sure that was the standalone "SpaceWarp loader for BepInEx on SpaceDock" mod, but now that functionality is built into the SpaceWarp mod loader core, and at least for me it's working great

Edited February 27, 2023 by munix

[jfjohnny5]

14 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I'd be leary of doing this, having one modloader load another mod loader which then loads mods is, IMHO, asking for trouble

This, 100%. It's a bad practice in general that will likely make it that much more difficult to troubleshoot mod bugs.

[Silvia Dragoness]

2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Your preference is acknowledged, but do you have any facts to back it up?

Only my own experience that game-specific modding utilities tend to work better and/or be less confusing, and that a solid majority of the KSP2 mods I've seen so far are built for SpaceWarp.

[linuxgurugamer]

3 hours ago, Silvia Dragoness said:

Only my own experience that game-specific modding utilities tend to work better and/or be less confusing, and that a solid majority of the KSP2 mods I've seen so far are built for SpaceWarp.

It's still early days.  I mean, the game has only been out 3 1/2 days, and you are trying to make a strong generalization about this.  

Not sure why people are leaning towards SpaceWarp, would like to know why.  

Spacewarp doesn't have any debugging tools at all.  As mods get more complicated, you can be sure that debugging tools will be useful and necessary.

 

[Kerbart]

The solution is simple: add another mod loader. That way we have three different mod loaders!

[problemecium]

I really hope they reconsider having mod support so far out on the roadmap and enable what they can in a (hopefully coming very soon) hotfix patch so we can just not have to deal with mod loaders. Watching, for instance, the Minecraft mod and mod loading scene evolve over the years has been painful, and I really liked that KSP 1 simply loaded whatever was in the GameData folder, even if it technically was a security issue.

[nubcaker]

It's good to see you getting on top of this quickly Linuxgurugamer. You've been a boon to the modding community for years now, guide us through these turbulent times!

[SydKhaos]

Would like to throw my hat in the ring for BepinEx.

Think it will suit better overall for the long-term. Also alot of people will be used to it already, so many games modded with bepinex.

[TheOtherDave]

18 hours ago, Silvia Dragoness said:

Counterpoint:  I almost always prefer focused tools over generic ones--in this case, I prefer a game-specific solution over a universal Unity solution.  I vote SpaceWarp, until we have something more official.

Which one is more likely to keep working if significant parts of KSP 2 get rewritten over the years?

[munix]

9 minutes ago, TheOtherDave said:

Which one is more likely to keep working if significant parts of KSP 2 get rewritten over the years?

Neither, since most of what they do is just load the mod dlls that use the KSP classes and methods, and if those change, the mods will be broken regardless of the mod loader used. In fact, the same mod written for one or the other is at this point almost exactly the same code, with just a small change in initialization.

The main difference right now is the presence of an in-game mod manager and configuration tool in SpaceWarp.

Edited February 28, 2023 by munix

[VITAS]

For now Space Warp is the more Downloaded.

https://spacedock.info/mod/3257/Space Warp#stats
https://spacedock.info/mod/3255/BepInEx for KSP 2#stats

[bbepis]

39 minutes ago, VITAS said:

For now Space Warp is the more Downloaded.

https://spacedock.info/mod/3257/Space Warp#stats
https://spacedock.info/mod/3255/BepInEx for KSP 2#stats

Not really a perfect indicator considering the install instructions for BepInEx tell you to download from Github...

[HebaruSan]

They're both trying to create doorstop_config.ini in the game root with their own settings. A user trying to install both will clobber one of the loaders' configs.

Is the wrapper to load SpaceWarp as a BepInEx plugin going to be kept up to date as SpaceWarp releases new versions?

[munix]

3 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

They're both trying to create doorstop_config.ini in the game root with their own settings. A user trying to install both will clobber one of the loaders' configs.

Is the wrapper to load SpaceWarp as a BepInEx plugin going to be kept up to date as SpaceWarp releases new versions?

It's part of the main SpaceWarp codebase since 0.2.5, there are simply 2 different entrypoints defined, Doorstop and BepInEx, and depending on a flag in the build script, one or the other or both get built. I don't see a reason why it would break/stop being supported in the future.

[Jivaii]

10 hours ago, TheOtherDave said:

Which one is more likely to keep working if significant parts of KSP 2 get rewritten over the years?

Considering that KSP 2 itself is getting a built in set of tools, probably neither.

[Scarecrow71]

6 hours ago, bbepis said:

Not really a perfect indicator considering the install instructions for BepInEx tell you to download from Github...

I went with SpaceWarp primarily because I can't find the instructions/thread here on how to download BepInEx, nor do I see any instructions on how to install any mods for BepInEx.

And that is what I think is the biggest problem here:  lack of clear usage and/or instructions.  I had to pore through multiple posts AND ask for help with SpaceWarp, and I still haven't seen/found information on BepInEx.

[munix]

19 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I went with SpaceWarp primarily because I can't find the instructions/thread here on how to download BepInEx, nor do I see any instructions on how to install any mods for BepInEx.

And that is what I think is the biggest problem here:  lack of clear usage and/or instructions.  I had to pore through multiple posts AND ask for help with SpaceWarp, and I still haven't seen/found information on BepInEx.

In case you still need it, install instructions for BepInEx are on its Spacedock page: BepInEx for KSP 2 on SpaceDock (including plugin installation info)

Edited February 28, 2023 by munix

[R-T-B]

I personally feel the panic over multiple loaders is a bit over the top, provided they make efforts to work with each other.

I am much more concerned with the state of the game, at present.  I won't be modding KSP2 further until it's farther along.

Edited February 28, 2023 by R-T-B

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, munix said:

In case you still need it, install instructions for BepInEx are on its Spacedock page: BepInEx for KSP 2 on SpaceDock (including plugin installation info)

See, the issue is that the instructions aren't here on the forums.  Having to go to another site - even if that is SpaceDock - doesn't really help us here.  This is the first place we come looking for help or mods or such.  And if I can't find it here, I'm pretty sure I won't find it elsewhere.

[AtomicTech]

On 2/26/2023 at 6:33 AM, linuxgurugamer said:

I see the eager modders have started the mess again.  There are now at least two different mod loaders:

• SpaceWarp
• BepenEx

and they appear to be incompatible with each other.

Sadly, this is what I was afraid of, and had talked to the developers over the years trying to get some guidance from them on day one for modders.  I know from examining what Visual Studio shows me, that they do have the structure for many things in the game which aren't yet available/finished, including a ModManager, Colonies, and more.  But since they aren't available, people are taking it on their own to start modding the game.

There needs to be discussion about this, and even if IG doesn't provide it, we should come up with a standardized way to install mods.    Other than determining that these two seem to be incompatible with each other (they both use UnityDoorstop).  Now, it is quite possible that these _can_ be made to work at the same time, but IMHO, having multiple mod managers injecting things into the game is just asking for trouble.

Comments?

I'm staff on the KSP 2 Modding Society where SpaceWarp is being developed so my preference between the two is, of course, SpaceWarp but I'm all in favor of an official mod loader from IG and a new Module Manager-like tool that makes it easy for folks like me to write mods. Also, because KSP 2 is still very, very early in its development, I'm going to hold off on making anything until we actually get some news regarding mod development. 

[HebaruSan]

9 hours ago, bbepis said:

Not really a perfect indicator considering the install instructions for BepInEx tell you to download from Github...

No, they say "from here." Since the text is on SpaceDock (and not a link), it's telling you to download from SpaceDock:

[munix]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

See, the issue is that the instructions aren't here on the forums.  Having to go to another site - even if that is SpaceDock - doesn't really help us here.  This is the first place we come looking for help or mods or such.  And if I can't find it here, I'm pretty sure I won't find it elsewhere.

But they are:

 

12 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

No, they say "from here." Since the text is on SpaceDock (and not a link), it's telling you to download from SpaceDock:

To be fair, in the forum thread the link is to GitHub, not SpaceDock