Everything hinges on the first update. Fingers crossed! [discussion]

[MARL_Mk1]

28 minutes ago, RayneCloud said:

The primary thing my experience in this industry has taught me is that you don't get second chances and you don't get a second "Release". There are some exceptions, NMS, FFXIV, and the rebound of Cyberpunk, but the average game doesn't get a second chance. I only hope that the release cadence steps up to at least bi-weekly updates and that the project strives towards the goal no matter what with fixes, optimizations, content and features. I want to see KSP 2 succeed. I also agree that this first patch will set the stage, hence we're more than likely not going to see it this week. (That's just a guess, I could be dead wrong.)

My experience tells me otherwise.

If we have to look at examples of how absolutely terrible Early Access projects that once were a meme and a decade later are popping and still hold the crown within their genre, that would be DayZ

DayZ was born as a mod created by Dean Hall for Bohemia Interactive's milsim game "ArmA 2".

In 2013, the game was released as a Standalone game in Early Access, actually just about 3 months before HarvesteR's original KSP.

DayZ spent 2013-2016 running in what essentially was Arma 2's engine and main scripting system. By then it was already considered a meme by how bad it performed, looked and how the original Arma 2 Mod was still many ways better than the Standalone, even 4 years after it's appeareance. 

In 2015-16, Bohemia decided to start porting DayZ Standalone to their new In-house "Enfusion" engine behind the curtains, while continuing to develop the legacy branch of the game so the playerbase wouldn't become unhappy and bored. All because the original Arma 2 engine was a complete mess and would've led to the game's inevitable death.

DayZ left Early Access in 2018 in a 1.0 version that was completely barebones and lacking feature parity with the last version of the legacy branch (0.62).

5 years after the infamous 1.0 release, DayZ has released over 20 huge feature updates that have made the game resurge and explode in popularity, breaking its own concurrent player counts on Steam, last one being last month , and that's not counting console activity. DayZ is now the workhorse of the company and is thriving, 10 years later.

After being and continuing to be a part of that journy ever since I tagged along with DayZ Standalone in 2015, and being there for the mod in 2012, I feel like KSP2 will be completely fine, since this is nothing compared with what that game and community had to endure.

Edited February 28, 2023 by MARL_Mk1

[RayneCloud]

That's one single game, go look at the whole of steam EA and you'll see what I mean. Also, respectfully, pointing out one game's success versus the 100's of other failures is not a good data point. I already pointed out FFXIV, NMS, and Cyberpunk as exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. Not the rule. 

[MARL_Mk1]

4 minutes ago, RayneCloud said:

That's one single game, go look at the whole of steam EA and you'll see what I mean. Also, respectfully, pointing out one game's success versus the 100's of other failures is not a good data point. I already pointed out FFXIV, NMS, and Cyberpunk as exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. Not the rule. 

Most of the 100's of other failures were tiny indie games not backed by huge publishers.

If we're going to compare EA games directly, let's do so properly. KSP2 has a proper team behind. The core game is there, and it's somewhat stable. It works, and the EA release is truthful about what this first build offers.

This is one of those cases where nobody will remember these arguments in 6-12 months because the game has evolved to be great, people are enjoying it and the dark times are over.

It's a game. In Early Access.

KSP1 once was, too. Give it time. Let them cook.

Edited February 28, 2023 by MARL_Mk1

[tstein]

15 minutes ago, Mutex said:

Does that hold true when the initial "release" is Early Access?

Usually yes, and that is why  VERY early Access  usually is a dangerous thing. Most people do not read the EA tag, most people never ever read this forum, most people that browse on steam  do not even knwo that science adn interstellar will come later. Most people do not stop to research before  making a rejection. That is why it is important to have the least obtuse bugs as possible

[MarcAbaddon]

Agreed, there are exceptions for most rules.

Most critically for it to work out like the publisher needs to be 100% behind the game and continue funding it. What I see here is people both blaming the bugs on Take Two for pushing the devs to do an early release, while at the same time being extremely confident that they will continue giving the devs more money and time to get us finished and polished product at the end of the road.

I doubt that both these narratives are true at the same time.

[RayneCloud]

4 minutes ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

Most of the 100's of other failures were tiny indie games not backed by huge publishers.

If we're going to compare EA games directly, let's do so properly. KSP2 has a proper team behind. The core game is there, and it's somewhat stable. It works, and the EA release is truthful about what this first build offers.

This is one of those cases where nobody will remember these arguments in 6-12 months because the game has evolved to be great, people are enjoying it and the dark times are over.

It's a game. In Early Access.

KSP1 once was, too. Give it time. Let them cook.

I was there for KSP 1 as well, I remember. I have faith in this team. I believei n them. I do not however trust or have any faith in T2 and PD.

[DadJokeCinema]

27 minutes ago, tstein said:

You are right on that, Cyberpunk had to pull a whole anime to  have a second release, not many can do that. That said, public is weird, sometimes you create a "Free expansion" with a  different sub tittle and pack a lot of fixes and a few features and that magically  is taken as a second chance.

I tried to make an anime to recuperate my reputation once. It did not work.

[Profugo Barbatus]

Pushing to steam depots sucks, so either they're running a very robust CI right to steam, or much more likely they're already in Release Candidates for the first patch.

That being said, they get a month or the first content patch before I start to really set expectations - first weeks will be a smorgasboard of random fixes entirely based on a mix of sense of priority, and whatever the devs happened to know how to 'quick fix' out the gate. The quality of the first content patch will be what defines it for me as it'll give a sense of what they feel is acceptable to release going forward - if the new bugs don't match the content scope, or if the content is being significantly prioritized over fixes, that'll raise some alarms. But if its reasonably balanced between fixes and new toys, for the first while at least, I'll be pretty optimistic.

However, if the first major bug squashes take more than a month, I'll be pretty worried. 

[Serenity]

You know how easily hope and fear mingle?

I hope to get a great game but if i judge its problems i fear i will never get it.

That is the scenario many in these forums currently inhabit.

It's literally, oh oh don't say anything, we might lose the chance to get our favourite game.

If you love, hope and fear in a balanced way then your praise and critism should be balanced.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Serenity

[Sunscreen]

I see that a few folks have posted that theres been a couple of test branches updated, and that is great news. Im a fairly simple chap. I find myself drawing certain conclusions if a patch arrives very rapidly after release that deals with some of the more obvious low hanging fruit issues like the pause spamming etc, namely that if a patch does land that deals with such issues in such a short time frame, how could it be that these issues were not addressed in an equally expeditious manner pre release? It is confusing to someone who has no programming insights like myself, and makes me wonder at the context. I do hope that for folks like myself who lack the insights and insider knowledge that many on the forum seem to have, that the devs will be open and informative about the current situation and the path going forward.

Edited for grammar and clarity, both of which remain atrocious.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Sunscreen

[DadJokeCinema]

I don't necessarily consider some of these threads to be made in good faith, but I suppose it deserves a considered and serious answer.

No, I don't think the whole future of the game rests on one update. Like any other development plan, the frequency and consistency of the updates and improvements will determine the long-term viability of the product. Something like Microsoft Flight Simulator, which has provided a range of fixes, new content, and new features on a pretty consistent basis while working towards performance improvements is an example of a good way of doing it. 

They have laid out a clear multi-year support plan, so I think it would be foolish to try to make any sort of assumptions about how that is going to go just a few weeks into the product's life. I mean, unless you're a YouTuber making your living off doom and gloom clickbait videos, then go for it.

[Serenity]

7 minutes ago, Sunscreen said:

I see that a few folks have posted that theres been a couple of test branches updated, and that is great news. Im a fairly simple chap I find myself drawing certain conclusions if a patch arrives very rapidly after release that deals with some of the more obvious low hanging fruit issues, namely that if a patch does land that deals with such issues in such a short time frame, how could it be that these issues were not addressed in an equally expeditious manner pre release? It is confusing to someone who has no programming insights like myself, and makes me wonder at the context.

My best guess is the game had to be released eventually and when the day arrived they started removing features and aspects of the game until it became ''somewhat'' stable.

I have seen some posts discussing about this and it seems like a very plausible scenario just because removing incomplete parts of the game until it can run would/could cause all this ''obvious'' issues since

there would be side effects from the oh we have to release get it ready.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Serenity

[Fullmetal Analyst]

49 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I've run several successful missions to the Mun, as well as building planes, flying, etc.

i am assuming these were all single craft missions?

the real problems begin showing up when you do missions involving multiple crafts with docking and undocking several times

[Starhawk]

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[Sunscreen]

51 minutes ago, Serenity said:

My best guess is the game had to be released eventually and when the day arrived they started removing features and aspects of the game until it became ''somewhat'' stable.

I have seen some posts discussing about this and it seems like a very plausible scenario just because removing incomplete parts of the game until it can run would/could cause all this ''obvious'' issues since

there would be side effects from the oh we have to release get it ready.

Thanks Serenity, yes that makes sense. I also came across this thread from the 17th just now which kind of answers my question too. It indicates (to me anyway) that there is/was an awareness of the status of the game and that a plan exists and has done for a while to move it all forward. Thanks 

Kerbal Space Program 2 - Pre-Release Notes - KSP2 Dev Updates - Kerbal Space Program Forums

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Sunscreen

[linuxgurugamer]

2 hours ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

i am assuming these were all single craft missions?

the real problems begin showing up when you do missions involving multiple crafts with docking and undocking several times

Nope!  Last night was an Apollo style mission.  Only real issue was the driver (ie: me) making a mistake on the lander.

Again, I'm not saying it's perfect.  But it's not the s--thole that some people are claiming it is

[Fullmetal Analyst]

40 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Nope!  Last night was an Apollo style mission.  Only real issue was the driver (ie: me) making a mistake on the lander.

Again, I'm not saying it's perfect.  But it's not the s--thole that some people are claiming it is

guess u have been very lucky then, here is a list of issues i have encountered while refueling a station in orbit around kerbin twice, and then moving it to solar orbit:

save system completely broken - sometimes it just wont save your game
parts misaligned after loading - rocket wont fly straight anymore
maneuver nodes breaking permanently after launching a few vessels - not even restarting and reloading your save will fix this, you have to revert to an older save if you want working nodes
fuel lines dont work - they leave you with a half-empty main tank after decoupling
acceleration during timewarp doesnt work at all
SAS is almost useless - to rotate heavy craft with lots of fuel you literally have to spam SAS modules everywhere or use tons of RCS thrusters
after undocking a ship, the ship seems to somehow still be connected, resulting in all sorts of weird rotation, and even random translation changes, the only way to fix this was by deleting the other undocked craft

[TheArturro]

2 hours ago, Starhawk said:

Numerous comments containing bickering and personal remarks have been removed.

[...]

I can only imagine how hard is a moderator job during this troubling period. Thank you for your service!

 

I will repeat what I've already said: this game can be fun if we do everything under certain restrictions (less parts, strut the &*^% out of everything, not look at KSC while in flight etc.), but the main reason (IMO obviously) behind the anger directed at this game is the lack of correlation between EA price tag and quality delivered at the moment. If this game was $30-$40 it would be bought in much higher numbers. I had a hard time deciding whether to spend 10% of a minimum income (Game is 240 PLN, minimum pay is ~2500 PLN) but ultimately did it, because I wholeheartedly support this game. And I have a very comfortable situtation of having a PC that is close to reccomended specs, so technically, I can enjoy it.

Also it would be insanely reasurring just to hear devs admit that they didn't meet the timeline, and that's the reason why everything is as it is. However I'm aware that there's close to 0 chance of them doing so, as they will paint their publisher in a bad light this way.

[RocketRockington]

Unless the next update utterly knocks it out of the park, a fashion that beyond unlikely, I don't see it mattering.  You get one release, like @RayneCloudmentioned.  They know what they're talking about .  One chance to make a first impression on the community.  T2/PD/Intercept games did everything they could to focus the community on this moment too - for a game of this budget, they did all the standard things you'd expect to get the community on board and sell a lot of copies day one - press events, trailers, advertising, years of hype and build up, etc.   A lot of this was likely in the pipeline before the final state of the build was clear - though, given what the game's trajectory must have been like, there must of a lot of optimism for a 'Bioware" moment when everything suddenly started working right (or more accurately all the devs would spend 6 months in hell crunch to get it there).

 After that its a log slog to try to restore faith.  A good patch is a nice first step, but I think people's impressions have formed.  Certainly some of the people who already have hope and a positive opinion of KSP2 will feel justified - but they're already on board.  A lot of the people with negative feelings will go 'Oh look, they fixed a bunch of the game breaking bugs - why didn't they do that last(week/month/quarter).  And where are all those features they promised?  Where's KSP1 parity?'.  Because their opinion is already settled as well.  Obviously there will be some minds changed one direction or another... but not as many as you'd hope.

Also, for further reference, right now KSP2 is sitting at appx 4600 positive reviews, with just as many negative.  Meanwhile KSP1 is sitting at 85,000 positive reviews and 5500 negative.  That means that to equal the base product, KSP2 will need to have a streak of 76000 all-positive reviews to match people's stated opinion of its predecessor.   That's an impossible mountain to climb, and its likely that KSP2 will never be as loved as the original, for a variety of reasons, especially with this launch.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by RocketRockington

[Kerbart]

5 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

Unless the next update utterly knocks it out of the park, a fashion that beyond unlikely, I don't see it mattering.  You get one release, like @RayneCloudmentioned.  They know what they're talking about .  One chance to make a first impression on the community.

(...)
Also, for further reference, right now KSP2 is sitting at appx 4600 positive reviews, with just as many negative.  Meanwhile KSP1 is sitting at 85,000 positive reviews and 5500 negative.  That means that to equal the base product, KSP2 will need to have a streak of 76000 all-positive reviews to match people's stated opinion of its predecessor.   That's an impossible mountain to climb, and its likely that KSP2 will never be as loved as the original, for a variety of reasons, especially with this launch.

Memory is remarkably short, and you're as good as your last success. IG doesn't have to knock the ball out of the park, or put in in orbit — all they need to do is restore trust, and an update that indeed solves a handful of the biggest gripes will do that. Yes, they messed up, and released a product that makes you wonder if anyone play tested it even once.

But let's not put KSP1 too much on a pedestal. It flew a long time under the radar, and the crappiest version simply didn't make it in the Steam reviews. Life was good until 0.24, and all of a sudden we went to 0.90 "because it was such a major leap," and that would have been fine if it weren't followed immediately by 1.0 and there was pretty similar outrage over how the launch was rushed, half the game was never tested, do they even play the game, etc, etc. And now everyone is saying how good it is.

It'll probably take three patches to get the game in a happy state. And by then most will love it, and only few will keep repeating stories on the botched roll-out.

[linuxgurugamer]

50 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

guess u have been very lucky then, here is a list of issues i have encountered while refueling a station in orbit around kerbin twice, and then moving it to solar orbit:

save system completely broken - sometimes it just wont save your game
parts misaligned after loading - rocket wont fly straight anymore
maneuver nodes breaking permanently after launching a few vessels - not even restarting and reloading your save will fix this, you have to revert to an older save if you want working nodes
fuel lines dont work - they leave you with a half-empty main tank after decoupling
acceleration during timewarp doesnt work at all
SAS is almost useless - to rotate heavy craft with lots of fuel you literally have to spam SAS modules everywhere or use tons of RCS thrusters
after undocking a ship, the ship seems to somehow still be connected, resulting in all sorts of weird rotation, and even random translation changes, the only way to fix this was by deleting the other undocked craft

I've run into bugs.  I just don't complain about them the way some people do.  I actually submitted 8 separate bug reports Friday afternoon.

To address your specific items:

51 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

save system completely broken - sometimes it just wont save your game

You just contridicted yourself.  First you say "completely broken", then you say "sometimes".  Please make up your mind

Ummm, problems, yes.  Completely broken?  Not at all.  There are times it won't save, but then there are plenty of times it does

53 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

parts misaligned after loading - rocket wont fly straight anymore

Again, I have seen it, but usually it turned out to simply need some more struts.

53 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

maneuver nodes breaking permanently after launching a few vessels - not even restarting and reloading your save will fix this, you have to revert to an older save if you want working nodes

I went through about 2 dozen launches.  Didn't see this.  Some more info would be helpful, such as vessel status, orbit, planet, etc.

54 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

fuel lines dont work - they leave you with a half-empty main tank after decoupling

This I observed and agree with, based on my own observation.

55 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

acceleration during timewarp doesnt work at all

Ummm, really?  If I recall, seemed to work for me when I used it.

56 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

SAS is almost useless - to rotate heavy craft with lots of fuel you literally have to spam SAS modules everywhere or use tons of RCS thrusters

Ummm, from what I saw, SAS is overpowered, just like in KSP 1

Frankly, SAS is so overpowered it's

59 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

after undocking a ship, the ship seems to somehow still be connected, resulting in all sorts of weird rotation, and even random translation changes, the only way to fix this was by deleting the other undocked craft

Reaction wheels don't have that power.  But this is a game, so I don't complain about that.

59 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

after undocking a ship, the ship seems to somehow still be connected, resulting in all sorts of weird rotation, and even random translation changes, the only way to fix this was by deleting the other undocked craft

Well, I did several dockings/undocks during a single mission last night.  Didn't see this, although I did hear of it from others.

 

Have you submitted any feedback or bug reports yet?  Since this _is_ an EA release, it would only be polite to submit bug reports.

you can submit a request here: https://support.privatedivision.com/hc/en-us
or you can post it on the forum and hope that customer support pick it up from there - obviously this path will take longer than submitting your request directly on the website

 

[LameLefty]

Ooh, and another branch called "candidate" pushed 23 minutes ago on Steam. 

Dance, code monkeys, dance for your coins.  

(I kid, I kid - despite the bugs, I already love this game and its potential - it's been my most-anticipated game of the year for a long time, leading Starfield - also apt to be buggy as crap at launch, btw). 

[Chilkoot]

6 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

The primary thing my experience in this industry has taught me is that you don't get second chances and you don't get a second "Release".

Sadly, this is true far more often than not.  2 years from now, when prospective buyers search for "KSP 2 Review", they're going to get Rock Paper Shotgun and a dozen other outlets that have been panning the game.  We don't know what kind of rating it will have on Steam by then, but it's got a very steep uphill battle to get back into solidly positive territory.  Also, how many people who posted a negative review will bother or remember to change it to positive when the game is in a better state?

Reviews make or break games in this bracket of budget and visibility.  This isn't an indie game with a scrappy start-up developer.  There isn't a lot of tolerance for a bad experience, and people don't feel "invested" in the game's future when it's financed by a multi-billion-dollar publisher.  They want their money's worth, EA or not, and justifiably so.

The spate of bad press will be a millstone around this game's sales for years to come.  There's really no two ways about it - you can't just "erase" this stuff from the internet with extra marketing money.  There's little doubt Take-Two will finance this game through to a reasonable level of completion, as advertised.  There's too much reputational risk at stake if they cut bait.  The lifespan support and new content, though - i.e., how profitable the title is - still remains to be seen, and tripping badly out of the gate isn't helping its prospects.

[RocketRockington]

I don't think Take2 is going to worry about the reputational damage if its blowing a hole in thier bottom line.  Partially due to their past actions, and partially because it's not like thier reputation among Kerbal fans would matter at that point.  It's not like Take2 has this amazing reputation that would be seriously altered by anything they do with Kerbal.  Private Division cancelled multiplayer servers and ongoing support for Disintegration after 3 months, and that has a higher rating on Steam even now that KSP2.

[EngineerinSquid]

5 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I've run into bugs.  I just don't complain about them the way some people do.  I actually submitted 8 separate bug reports Friday afternoon.

To address your specific items:

You just contridicted yourself.  First you say "completely broken", then you say "sometimes".  Please make up your mind

Ummm, problems, yes.  Completely broken?  Not at all.  There are times it won't save, but then there are plenty of times it does

Again, I have seen it, but usually it turned out to simply need some more struts.

I went through about 2 dozen launches.  Didn't see this.  Some more info would be helpful, such as vessel status, orbit, planet, etc.

This I observed and agree with, based on my own observation.

Ummm, really?  If I recall, seemed to work for me when I used it.

Ummm, from what I saw, SAS is overpowered, just like in KSP 1

Frankly, SAS is so overpowered it's

Reaction wheels don't have that power.  But this is a game, so I don't complain about that.

Well, I did several dockings/undocks during a single mission last night.  Didn't see this, although I did hear of it from others.

 

Have you submitted any feedback or bug reports yet?  Since this _is_ an EA release, it would only be polite to submit bug reports.

you can submit a request here: https://support.privatedivision.com/hc/en-us
or you can post it on the forum and hope that customer support pick it up from there - obviously this path will take longer than submitting your request directly on the website

 

Dude you can go look at the bug report threads and see that all of these are very common bugs. Multiples of these and worse have happened to me, and the SAS and RCS bug is a major deal as well. Now I have up to this point just reported them and moved on, but you are being very elitist about this. All you are using here is anecdotal evidence, "Oh IIIII didnt experience this, so your complaints are invalid", a lot of these bugs are gamebreaking to the average player, as not all of us can make content enough to have a patreon link in our forum signature