Approaching Patch One

[Moose]

2 minutes ago, RockyTV said:

If this is true then this just made me not trust IG anymore. If they knew the state of the build that was released to the public, why the hell did they release it anyway and not release a hotfix, if they knew about these bugs a while before the game was released to the public?

This just betrays that you really don't understand the relationship developers have with publishers. 

[Delay]

1 minute ago, RockyTV said:

If this is true then this just made me not trust IG anymore.

It's probably for the better if you don't.

2 minutes ago, RockyTV said:

If they knew the state of the build that was released to the public, why the hell did they release it anyway and not release a hotfix

Because IG is not PD, much less T2.

As for hotfixes, I reckon they were already working on solutions in the background (that's the patch we're waiting for right now) while still having their eventual EA build locked in. You wouldn't want to risk breaking your release candidate a week before launch with no chance of going back.

[The Aziz]

10 minutes ago, RockyTV said:

If they knew the state of the build that was released to the public, why the hell did they release it anyway and not release a hotfix, if they knew about these bugs a while before the game was released to the public?

Weird how you seem to respond to everything aside from countless responses to this and similar questions with a very probable explanation.

[rayceeya]

I love getting feedback from the devs.  Reminds me of the wild days of the original KSP.  Sure the game was broken as hell, but I look back on those days quite fondly.

[RockyTV]

15 minutes ago, Delay said:

Because IG is not PD, much less T2.

They are. IG is a studio created by Take2 after they cancelled the contract with Star Theory (which was contracted to develop KSP2 and Take2 attempted to purchase them, only for the CEOs to refuse and Take2 poach half of its employees).
 

15 minutes ago, Delay said:

As for hotfixes, I reckon they were already working on solutions in the background (that's the patch we're waiting for right now) while still having their eventual EA build locked in. You wouldn't want to risk breaking your release candidate a week before launch with no chance of going back.

How well this worked out in the end? The EA release is completely broken.

 

8 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Weird how you seem to respond to everything aside from countless responses to this and similar questions with a very probable explanation.

Because the same way everyone tries to say T2 is to blame for the rushed release, they are also saying they are to blame for delayed patches. The patches are up to the developers to release, aren't they? They should've released a patch by now already, at least to fix some severe bugs (hello UI calculations being reduced by 50%???). And judging from the interview @Delaylinked, the devs knew exactly how the game was and decided to not do anything about it (not even release a day-1 hotfix/bug fixing patch) makes them responsible for the state the game's currently in.

So, yeah, we're not disagreeing that it's T2 fault for the rushed release but the devs knowing it and deciding to not do anything to polish the release, or release in this state and release a bugfix maximum a week later, they are also the ones responsible for the crappy state the EA release is in. My point is, they know exactly what's going on and the way they handled it just tells me and other fans that they shouldn't be trusted at all. It feels like they're dropping an F-bomb to fans while trying to not make it look obvious by releasing occasional updates to pretend they're working on something.

[Delay]

7 minutes ago, RockyTV said:

They are. IG is a studio created by Take2 after they cancelled the contract with Star Theory (which was contracted to develop KSP2 and Take2 attempted to purchase them, only for the CEOs to refuse and Take2 poach half of its employees).

A studio created by Take2 is not the same as T2. To further explain, let's put it this way: A project by IG implies that PD is involved, which in turn implies T2 is, but a project supervised by T2 does not need to involve either PD or IG.

7 minutes ago, RockyTV said:

How well this worked out in the end? The EA release is completely broken.

Re-read, that's exactly what I said. The build we have access to is I-don't-know-how old. It could have been compiled last December for all we know! What we can speculate is that while this was the build that would eventually be released, development didn't stop and attempts to address the issues were probably already on their way. They just wouldn't be integrated into the EA build and be supplied as a first patch instead, which would also allow a greater scope of bugs to be fixed and improvements to be implemented whilst also allowing for more rigorous and thorough testing because the EA release date is not on the line.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Delay

[thewhitemetroid]

1 hour ago, LameLefty said:

or even hide the UI for a screenshot

Try F2 when in flight mode.

@RockyTVall of your arguments strongly suggest IG is self sabotaging and that they secretly hate us and want us to suffer.  That is an absurd idea. As a team they will naturally want to do everything they can to self preserve. The only way to do that is to put out the best product they can while operating within the constraints placed on them. 

[LameLefty]

2 minutes ago, thewhitemetroid said:

Try F2 when in flight mode.

Try reading my post. I know HOW to hide the UI, but doing that resets the Burn Progress bar when you bring it back, just like flipping between the Map and Flight modes.

That's one of the several critical things that simply need to get fixed to make the game less frustrating/annoying/rage inducing and more actually playable. 

[The Aziz]

2 minutes ago, thewhitemetroid said:

while operating within the constraints placed on them. 

And the next thing you're going to hear is that there's no constraints and they have unlimited resources or something like that 

[Delay]

5 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

And the next thing you're going to hear is that there's no constraints and they have unlimited resources or something like that 

It already happened several times...

[thewhitemetroid]

11 minutes ago, LameLefty said:

Try reading my post.

Noted

[DeadJohn]

3 hours ago, RockyTV said:

In other words: we can expect patch 1 to be as buggy as the EA release because the same QA team that, for some reason, didn't find the game breaking bugs we've reported since release, is doing the QA for the patch, and back then those findings didn't allow for the release date to be pushed back.

[snipped and merged for brevity]

f this is true then this just made me not trust IG anymore. If they knew the state of the build that was released to the public, why the hell did they release it anyway and not release a hotfix, if they knew about these bugs a while before the game was released to the public?

You don't have enough facts to know whether the QA team is to blame. It's an unwise career move for insiders to provide too much detail.

We don't know what led to EA going out in the current state. Maybe QA screwed up? Maybe the devs and QA asked to push EA back a month but someone above them insisted on sticking to the announced February date? Maybe someone in the decision chain didn't want to tell their boss bad news; that could be the fault of a lazy worker or a mercurial manager?

[mcwaffles2003]

11 hours ago, Periple said:

Only if the devs want a break from devving to write one!

Honestly, I think if slowed down the devs a bit it would still be worth it.

Yes, the game needs to be built but also for a game like KSP with the kind of community its built up, I feel like the community should be more in the know. Also, I think this community is a useful resource with a lot of skilled people. There are a lot of game game devs (like you, right?), other professional programmers, and engineers here who can bring good ideas or might know pitfalls the devs genuinely may not be aware of. 

Basically I believe if the community was more informed then EA launching in the state it did would not have been received as poorly as it has been and could have even been seen overall as positive.

[Centaury42]

I hope i will have more FPS

[mcwaffles2003]

4 hours ago, RockyTV said:

Because yeah Wube has a multi-billion publisher behind them and they can use their resources whenever they want, right?

Wube's publisher is Wube...

?

[Periple]

21 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

There are a lot of game game devs (like you, right?), other professional programmers, and engineers here who can bring good ideas or might know pitfalls the devs genuinely may not be aware of. 

There are, but it doesn't really help much, or rather it would help if the studio decided it needs to ask us advice solving specific problems. "We're having problems making wheels work, hit us up if you've done that kind of thing before, we can take you on as a consultant for that." Thing is, IG is owned by PD which is a part of T2. That's a massive, massive network of experts and consultants they can draw upon if they feel they need it. And if they don't feel they need the advice, then anyone here offering it will just get ignored. That's the thing with unsolicited advice – even if it's very good (and you'd be surprised at how rare that is, even if it comes from somebody who really knows what they're talking about) – it'll get ignored.

28 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Basically I believe if the community was more informed then EA launching in the state it did would not have been received as poorly as it has been and could have even been seen overall as positive.

Now that's for sure! They clearly didn't manage expectations well!

[tg626]

(It's pronounced "Mew-n")

[Periple]

38 minutes ago, DeadJohn said:

You don't have enough facts to know whether the QA team is to blame. It's an unwise career move for insiders to provide too much detail.

The QA team is never to blame. QA only tests and reports bugs. Somebody else makes the call to release. Competent, inexpensive, and efficient off-site QA is easily available. If somebody decided not to use it, or not to have enough of it, that's their fault.

Moreover, it's pretty clear that KSP2 v0.1 has gone through QA. It hardly ever crashes (it's never crashed on me for example) or malfunctions in other similarly spectacular ways. Almost all of the bugs are either intermittent and not super-easy to reproduce ("my savegame got corrupted but I'm not sure why"), or gameplay bugs (not A bugs). I think it's most likely production told QA to focus on A bugs only and ignore everything else, and then decided to go to production with a few A bugs anyway. 

[mcwaffles2003]

5 minutes ago, Periple said:

There are, but it doesn't really help much, or rather it would help if the studio decided it needs to ask us advice solving specific problems. "We're having problems making wheels work, hit us up if you've done that kind of thing before, we can take you on as a consultant for that." Thing is, IG is owned by PD which is a part of T2. That's a massive, massive network of experts and consultants they can draw upon if they feel they need it. And if they don't feel they need the advice, then anyone here offering it will just get ignored. That's the thing with unsolicited advice – even if it's very good (and you'd be surprised at how rare that is, even if it comes from somebody who really knows what they're talking about) – it'll get ignored.

That's fine though and advice doesn't need to be taken but it's available regardless and the community gets to feel like they're part of the process regardless. Add in that community can see the games state, the improvements being made, and better understand the dev visions going forward we can, as a whole, align our expectations more appropriately and some of us not i the know development wise can learn a little to along the way.

I always point to factorio for things like this because their communication with their community is the best I have ever seen and I know that I loved their updates just cause I got some good understanding of how game development worked which is fascinating

[Periple]

1 minute ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

I always point to factorio for things like this because their communication with their community is the best I have ever seen and I know that I loved their updates just cause I got some good understanding of how game development worked which is fascinating

I love updates too! It's just that everything comes at an opportunity cost. It must have taken Mortoc something close to a full working day to write up that blog post, even if he had someone from publishing do an edit pass after. He could have been actually doing all that. Don't get me wrong, sometimes getting your head out of code and doing something else, like blogging about it, is exactly what you need – but I really wouldn't want developers to feel obligated to do that kind of thing. Moreover, most devs don't even write that well!

[FlickAndSnorty]

@RockyTV I feel at this point, you're intentionally ignoring all of the evidence that counters nearly everything you've said.

Quote

They are. IG is a studio created by Take2 after they cancelled the contract with Star Theory (which was contracted to develop KSP2 and Take2 attempted to purchase them, only for the CEOs to refuse and Take2 poach half of its employees).

 

Yes, IG was created by T2, but T2 still sets the deadlines, sets the prices, and does the marketing. The studio only produces the game and works with what they get from the publisher. Their owners/founders have no bearing on the working relationship between publisher and studio, perhaps only other than budget and talent from other publisher owned studios getting poached.

 

Quote

How well this worked out in the end? The EA release is completely broken.

Like absolutely everyone else has said - They were likely given the deadline with marginal notice and no game ready to ship. Developing a stable release build for an early access title is a massive task. Combine that with the hype the publisher has built around the game, and you run in to what we have got.
Interviews with Nate show he clearly knows of the current dev build state that they have in-house, and is genuinely proud of it. That speaks volumes about what the studio has done, versus the hand the publisher has dealt them. Publisher profits have often always been the root cause of bad launch states.

Feel free to take a look at the information pulled by the dataminers:

Click to open the full posts.

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Because the same way everyone tries to say T2 is to blame for the rushed release, they are also saying they are to blame for delayed patches. The patches are up to the developers to release, aren't they? They should've released a patch by now already, at least to fix some severe bugs (hello UI calculations being reduced by 50%???). And judging from the interview @Delaylinked, the devs knew exactly how the game was and decided to not do anything about it (not even release a day-1 hotfix/bug fixing patch) makes them responsible for the state the game's currently in.

No one's saying the studio is to blame for delayed patches, certainly not at the same volume as people ignoring the significance the publisher has played in this games launch state.
Delayed patches? They're not delayed at all. They've said pretty much on day 1 to keep an eye out for upcoming patches.
Nate has even said they're keeping them to every few weeks to ensure the patches are thorough, and have sufficient time to QA test the patches.

The devs are also human beings coming out of a release crunch. Give them a chance to recover and spend time with families....

 

Quote

So, yeah, we're not disagreeing that it's T2 fault for the rushed release but the devs knowing it and deciding to not do anything to polish the release, or release in this state and release a bugfix maximum a week later, they are also the ones responsible for the crappy state the EA release is in. My point is, they know exactly what's going on and the way they handled it just tells me and other fans that they shouldn't be trusted at all. It feels like they're dropping an F-bomb to fans while trying to not make it look obvious by releasing occasional updates to pretend they're working on something.

This just reads disingenuous. Rushed release date = Crunch to put together something to launch. Watch Shadow zones interview, with Nate the week before launch. They obviously knew about the bugs, and obviously already had their minds set on patches. Why wouldn't they? They've engaged very frequently and publicly with the community, and have channels with content creators to feedback prevalent bugs as well. 

I don't understand why you think IG have done anything other than their very best. They haven't "Dropped an F-bomb to fans" they've explained everything clearly, quickly, and are working relentlessly to fix this

If you're able to give examples of where IG have been dishonest to us, please do share. Currently, the evidence and general consensus of so many other users responding to you, is that you've got blinders on because you're upset.
That's absolutely fine - i've got about 2k hours on KSP 1, I grew up playing it, and launch day annoyed me. But seeing all of this work from IG coming to the surface, I have absolutely zero reason to believe they're doing nothing short of the very best they can following their publishers decisions.
 

[Topher420247]

So while I agree with most everyone that this is currently less of a game than ksp1 i can see how it could be better ONE DAY. The real question i have is are you ever going to give console the final ksp update or is it just not going to happen? I play pc now but I learned more about ksp playing console being limited to no mods and it's messed up that your working on ksp2 without even finishing the game people have paid for.

[RW-1]

I prefer to not even involve myself in the Politics of Publishing a title, and the dev team, etc.

On the basis of other types of EA releases  and issues experienced, I believe like a lot of you out there - this was not yet ready for an EA at this state. Especially after plunking $52 for the experience. That is my opinion, and I respect those who differ even if I don't agree with them.

However, monetarily, my dissatisfaction  was too great for the amount spent. I requested a refund and got it.

I'll be over on K1, awaiting the overall consensus of this and further subsequent patch/version releases to decide if the cost of admission is worth the state of the game.

In that vein I'm sure I'm not alone, just that I took the plunge while others more patient waited thru launch and are now waiting as well.

 

I'm hopeful that community response to the 1st patch is worth it,  or I and others will have to wait a bit longer.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by RW-1
Corrected Punctuation

[croviking]

20 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

We also fixed the "Kraken drive" bug that created insane reverse thrust when an engine’s nozzle was obstructed

So, no more thrust reversers?

 

[ArmchairGravy]

3 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Basically I believe if the community was more informed then EA launching in the state it did would not have been received as poorly as it has been and could have even been seen overall as positive.

It would have helped if they'd said the tutorials are done, but nothing else really is. I'm not sure how they can justify $50 for the game, tbh. I was expecting us to be in phase 1 of the roadmap, not phase 0 where we're still getting basic systems on line for that price point.