Mohopeful

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

10 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Eager is fine. It's impatient to the point of entitled that irks me.

And yes I do not own ksp2. I'll buy it when I feel the product is worth the price. Until then though I will enjoy the updates as they come. And other entertainment options.

Impatient would be when it was said an announcement comes this week, and those people would complain Monday at 8 in the morning.It's definitely not being impatient when we were close to the end of the week, and it was radio silence.

 

We're all on the same team, wanting this game to succeed, but to complain people are to eager when we have yet to see a new feature being added after 3 months... Or let's put it this way, hopefully it explains how people can be so eager... If I knew I had this "hand" at launch, I'd definitely not price it as high, because you're now just asking for trouble.

We did our part, put the brain a bit on standby when we shelled out 50$ for such a tall order and high promises of features that weren't there on day1, and now, months later, we see the type of communication that looks like stalling.

Edited May 20, 2023 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[uglyduckling81]

Seriously just focus on the worst bugs and modding support.

Develop powerful and easy to use modding tools and let the community fix this game for you.

[RocketRockington]

6 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

For one thing, people keep demanding "transparency." 

Honestly speaking, do you believe the communications by Nate count as transparency? 

When he says everything is going great - and a large % of even the devoted who visit these forums, much less the broader community, clearly disagree?  Does the mod team think everyone complaining is a whiner, as that comment might suggest?

[MechBFP]

31 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

Honestly speaking, do you believe the communications by Nate count as transparency? 

When he says everything is going great - and a large % of even the devoted who visit these forums, much less the broader community, clearly disagree?  Does the mod team think everyone complaining is a whiner, as that comment might suggest?

You may find his hard to believe but your not actually going to convince anyone to grovel to you by repeating the same complaints ad nauseam to them, at least not here anyway.

The pace of development is based on the resources it has (time, money, and talent) and it’s pretty much a guarantee that the majority of those are locked in for quite some time.  It doesn’t matter how much you want things to go faster, it is not going to happen. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by MechBFP

[PDCWolf]

6 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

For one thing, people keep demanding "transparency." 

Imma bite here because that's a word that I've used.  The TL;DR would be: Repeating the same "we are working and everything is good :)" thing, in the same tone is the complete opposite of transparency. It is entirely tone-deaf and at this point an insult to the intelligence of buyers, refunders, hyper-trainers, and so on.

I originally posted a list of concerns back in May 21 2022, almost a full year before the game was out:

Quote

1. No communication for months, followed by a delay announcement with 0 explanation other than basic PR wording.
2. Last real hands on gameplay dates from 2019, game's been in the oven for almost 3 extra full years since they were able to show gameplay, but were never able to show complete gameplay again.
3. Only progress traceable to video evidence is new interstellar parts in 3 years of cumulative delays.
4. Insistence on trying to pass asset mounts as gameplay (led to outrage that ended on them including "not real gameplay" notice).
5. Just because it should be its own point: 4 unexplained delays.
6. Failure to address broken promises: Breaking Ground unusable, Multiplayer for KSP1. They could do this outside whatever PR strategy they employ for KSP2
7. Repeated failure to address multiple points in this list which exist before the delay and thus have been addressable since much longer than their previous updates.
8. Zero effort on community growth.
9. Failure to answer other questions, unrelated to development, in their social media (heck, there's even some good ones in their last twitter post for example, reddit too).

This was my way to condense a lot of the general "negative" feeling around the game back then, and I'd gladly state with certainty that the state of the game and these updates now, have made the feeling around the game much worse, let alone failing to address any single one of those concerns in a year. What's worse is that I'm sure even for other posters, the list has kept growing.

Things remain unexplained:

1. Development is incredibly nebulous to the point it takes 6 months to tell us maybe they've fixed a thing and are currently making at least 2 parts (and nothing of this might make it for the update which is at least 2 weeks ahead). Let me remind you this is their progress report for a game that was delayed for 3 years to be "polished".
2. They keep talking of QA whilst the game shows regression bugs with every patch. QA lead did a dev blog, being probably the best team member to address us until now, but their words are impossible to prove because support is an e-mail blackhole. They want us to believe they know and are working on this and that bug, but with a "trust me bro" warranty.
3. They told ObsidianAnt that re-entry heating was gonna be there for EA release, not only did they make him almost lie to us, but re-entry heating is not a thing, and we've seen no progress of it pass a single image.
4. They keep posting editor based asset mounts. Considering what's happened to asset mounts shown before (colony building, interstellar engines, and every other show and tell), it's no wonder some people don't buy them. You have a game now, put the part in the game, take a screenshot of the game, post that.
5. One of the parts was discovered to be a literal remix of a part they showed 3 years ago. What thrust do they plan to build with that? 3 years for a part is not even me territory, and god were my part mods bad.
6. These updates are completely noncommittal, everything is a maybe, which I'm guessing doesn't come from fear of failing deadlines, but rather whatever is causing the rest of this list.

 

[The Aziz]

 

[Squaremantis]

More like Mocopium, this whole game has gone to crap and all the devs can talk about is an update that isn't going to be released for at least another 6 months. I am losing all hope in this "game" and judging by the playercount most other people have also given up on this so called "successor" to ksp. I don't even see a point in giving feedback to the devs either, considering they quite literally do not listen to what everyone is telling them and the entire studio is descending into a pit of hell because of this. I have tried my best to conserve my anger but every dev update it just gets worse and worse to the point where I wonder if the devs are filtering out most negative comments on the forums and just letting everything go wild over on the steam forums instead of just listening and changing their horrible and unsustainable development plan. If the devs are reading this (which they most likely aren't considering they are just brick walls when it comes to critique) then please for the love of god listen to what your players want instead of blindly believing in this narrative that it will all be fine if you just keep ignoring all the criticism and occasionally look in the forums to find some bugs you can fix in the next patch. Please do better and listen to your players instead of a made up narrative that you have been following ever since launch.

[Just Jim]

10 hours ago, nestor said:

Devs have different skills, only a handful of people have the right skills to work on those bugs. The rest are working on stuff that is adequate for their skills. People working on new parts has no impact on those orbit bugs being fixed sooner or later. The right people are working on those bugs and we will let you know once we are certain about the fix. 

I know I should stay out of this, but I am going to expand on what Nestor said a little, using myself as the example.
I am a writer, not an engineer.  I am qualified to fix writing and localization bugs, but that's about it.
If I stopped what I'm doing right now and tried working on the more complex bugs, I would most likely cause more problems than I would solve.
And none of the science writing would be done on time.

[Mushylog]

I was just wondering about improvements for the solar lens flare, as I noticed in this (current) version that the sunlight would appear inside all the mountains of a body (the Mun in my case), before actually going high enough to see the sun. So GREAT JOB Jon Cioletti, Chris Mortonson and Phil Fortier, this is such a nice improvement.

It's all in the little details!

I'm excited about the grid fins. (...procedural grid fins? )

Thank you for the Updates, it's always good to read!!

[RocketRockington]

12 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

I know I should stay out of this, but I am going to expand on what Nestor said a little, using myself as the example.
I am a writer, not an engineer.  I am qualified to fix writing and localization bugs, but that's about it.
If I stopped what I'm doing right now and tried working on the more complex bugs, I would most likely cause more problems than I would solve.
And none of the science writing would be done on time.

That's fair Jim.   But even given that - we're also seeing paltry amounts of other development work happening.  If only a few people can deliver key bug fixes - why not deliver those builds as they come, on a better pace, and not delay patches until some nebulous amount of other stuff gets finished. 

You were in KSP1, it didn't take 2 months+ after each update just to deliver each batch of hot fixes.  You should be running on at least two branches, one for dev and one for bug fixing, with the bug fixing branch able to be deployed relatively frequently.

Further, Mortoc is exactly one of the people who should be able to fix perf issues, given how many relate to graphics - why's he working on sun flares?   That makes no sense at all.

[Strawberry]

15 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

Further, Mortoc is exactly one of the people who should be able to fix perf issues, given how many relate to graphics - why's he working on sun flares?   That makes no sense at all.

The change does improve performance as the post mentioned (which is one of the priorities right now), most likely it was a "Oh this system sucks I might as well rework it entirely while Im at it thing". I read the planetshine overhaul the same way

Edited May 20, 2023 by Strawberry

[Little 908]

1 hour ago, Mushylog said:

I'm excited about the grid fins. (...procedural grid fins? )

That would be cool, not sure how that would work though 

[RocketRockington]

36 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

The change does improve performance as the post mentioned (which is one of the priorities right now), most likely it was a "Oh this system sucks I might as well rework it entirely while Im at it thing". I read the planetshine overhaul the same way

Fair enough.  Didn't realize lens flares were such a big perf hit that that was at the top of the queue.  Last we heard it was the planet tesselation and rendering that was the key issue to address.

[Strawberry]

14 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

Fair enough.  Didn't realize lens flares were such a big perf hit that that was at the top of the queue.  Last we heard it was the planet tesselation and rendering that was the key issue to address.

From what I've heard I don't think its a huge performance hit, but 1. Lens flare can evidently be reworked faster then reworking all of the rendering for terrain, and short term improvements are important here mostly for public support (imagine how the community would react if we had no changes to graphics and just a message that was The graphics engineers are hard at work on terrain rendering!). and 2. I assume the graphics engineers work on different things, dedicating entirely to one project for weeks can just be bad for productivity and put yourself in a mental slog, while I don't know their workflow of course, I assume that alongside this they worked on smaller scope bugs and wider overhauls.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Strawberry

[Alexoff]

24 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

imagine how the community would react if we had no changes to graphics and just a message that was The graphics engineers are hard at work on terrain rendering!

The community will react in much the same way as usual. How did we react to the screenshots (!!!) of the multiplayer? Or a screenshot of a rocket in an incorrectly made plasma? Or the words about the colonies (when was the last time we SAW  something related to the colonies?)?

[Antiglow]

Posts like this make me relieved I refunded day 1.

This game should have not entered early access without heating and basic science. 

Between not being able to properly manage community, (Seriously all you have to do is follow successful examples out there like Satisfactory) and having a very bad procrastinatory update pattern, I have no hope left that this will succeed even though I desperately want it to. 

The warning signs where there from before day 1. Videos not really showing development, too much focus on cinematics, no live streams, simple bugs identified before launch not being fixed on launch, very little communication, only “corporate talk” in updates, no hot fixes, and most importantly little to no transparency. 

All of these point to things not going well in the backend. Not that I don’t think they can’t turn it around, but the fact that haven’t even started to makes me not trust them. 

I’ll return when thermal and science hits (if they get there) but before that this game may as well be in a pre-alpha state. The little bird was too young to leave the nest and got dropped on the floor— the parents don’t seem to care.

[kdaviper]

So many people in this threads are shoulding all over themselves

[Emanuel01]

I guess we won't get science this year... Hope I'm wrong

[Soondooboo]

A new fin and lens flare fix .... ok... 

[Yakuzi]

13 hours ago, Strawberry said:

I do wonder why this update came out longer then I expected. The previous two patches had pretty good pace, the main causes I can think of is 1. probably lots of people taking vacations right now, and 2. Switching over to a new workflow will slow things down temporarily as the team adjusts. I think its mostly the latter??

3. Some bugs were already fixed before launch, but didn't make it to the release for whatever reason, but made it to the first two patches. And now we're being shown the actual development pace cadence.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Yakuzi

[Redneck]

They knew the game was not ready or even close to being ready. Why did they still charge $50 ?  Who made that call? Who made the call that the game was ready enough even though bugs and errors were in plain sight?  Why are there no refunds being issued? I want mine refunded and I bought 3 copies!!!!! This game is going nowhere and im tired of being BS'd!

Edited May 20, 2023 by Redneck

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

4 hours ago, ssd21345 said:

Most of us don't know what replies are merged from other thread or not, so I don't think it is good to make a assumption whether people derail the thread with their replies

This is a valid point though, as I might just be carrying grudges from the last DEV post from Nate last Friday, which still was very active before this post was published. 

And it was active with content that was not very relevant to the post itself. But hey, I see now that most of the content on page five is very relevant, even if it is in positive or negative view of the game, so you've got a point. 

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

5 hours ago, Just Jim said:

I know I should stay out of this, but I am going to expand on what Nestor said a little, using myself as the example.

Thank you anyway for providing us with this post! This short post provides the communtiy with tons of insight in very few sentences. Good job.

This is also a very valid comment to those who post about the team, saying they should not take vacations, or here, where @Antiglowposts: 

3 hours ago, Antiglow said:

(more context in post) ...and having a very bad procrastinatory update pattern, I have no hope left that this will succeed even though I desperately want it to.

Yes, I understand the frustration. Yes, I would also like to have more features and a more stable game at launch. 

And also, yes, the communication can more often be vague than straight to the point. Like you feel here:

3 hours ago, Antiglow said:

...very little communication, only “corporate talk” in updates, (...)

Still, things have gone to very bad earlier when the team of game devs have been involved in, let's say AMA's on reddit. Don't know if you're into FPS games, but the time where the devs from Respawn Entertainment called people who don't spend money on the game "[snip]" during a rather disastrous AMA about Apex Legends on reddit, well, yeah. That was not very cool. 

This is why the devs stay out of the forums, and why words from Nate are rather short than concise. Because people on the forum will pick their posts apart anyway, and two-on-two communication would go awry pretty quick. Still, I see that Dakota, the community manager, is very active here and even replies to some of us, which is very good. I don't mind the devs staying out of the forums. 

I just want to clarify that I feel Just Jim provided a brilliant post. Tons of insight, zero flame wars started. Great! 

@Antiglow, we all have our reasons for playing KSP2, not playing, not buying or getting a refund. If you enjoy the "only Sandbox" part of the game (which is all you get for now), I would recommend checking this thread in the Mission Reports section of the forums. This dude is teaching his kids KSP2, and building massive space stations. The game is definitely playable, although with massive Kraken attacks. But it is playable. 

If you rather like the progression side of things, I understand your refund, but I would seriously hope you bought it again later when Science have been introduced. I would love to see you post some amazing crafts in the forums, or just state that you like playing the game. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by adsii1970
This post has been edited by a member of the moderation team.

[Alexoff]

37 minutes ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

This is why the devs stay out of the forums, and why words from Nate are rather short than concise. Because people on the forum will pick their posts apart anyway, and two-on-two communication would go awry pretty quick.

If the fans of the game are the main communication problem, then the community managers are doing something wrong.

[Mitokandria]

Peek in at update. See there's very little substance. Go back to playing KSP1 still.

Not upset I bought an EA game. It's always a gamble and I accept that KSP2 is....kinda bad right now. I can't really play the game as-is without running into a game breaking bug right now (tried to play last week, but my first ship got the fairing bug in VAB and had to Alt+F4). But I am hopeful that a year from now maybe the game will be enjoyable for me. This is not meant to be sarcasm, just downcast acceptance of the situation.