KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Vl3d]

https://discord.com/channels/1039959585949237268/1039965151237001307/1172248606519066644

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1039965151237001307/1172248603859894372/boatdockboatdockboatdock.mp4

Edited November 9, 2023 by Vl3d

[LoSBoL]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

That's not a navball, that's a GPS top-down map. Good try though,

That is a very important attitude meter as well, better keep an eye on it if you don't want fly aways or to little battery to return to home, you can't feel the conditions where the drone is at and the drone is gimballed, so you won't get the information by looking at the picture. 

[MechBFP]

I’m confused by this conversation. If the opinion is that you should be relying on the nav ball for everything, then who cares where it is? You aren’t looking at anything else anyway so who cares if it is the corner, in the middle, on another monitor, etc?

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, MechBFP said:

If the opinion is that you should be relying on the nav ball for everything, then who cares where it is?

Being able to see your vessel isn't pointless, docking and landing are still situations where having your vessel in view is important. That's why the navball was moved to the left and all the readouts moved to the navball, to get the best of both worlds.

[Meecrob]

12 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'm not entirely sure why you keep reiterating this, because the "reality of aerospace" is completely different from KSP 2.

Because you keep trying to jam your opinion down my throat. You clearly do not understand that I am not trying to get kudos for being correct. I am merely trying to explain the reasoning behind navball placement. You are not the target of my comments. Similar to publicized debates, the people I am trying to reach are those reading my comments, not the person I am arguing with.

[MechBFP]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

Being able to see your vessel isn't pointless, docking and landing are still situations where having your vessel in view is important. That's why the navball was moved to the left and all the readouts moved to the navball, to get the best of both worlds.

That makes sense to me. But if that isn’t the case, then why does the placement matter?

[Spicat]

1 minute ago, MechBFP said:

That makes sense to me. But if that isn’t the case, then why does the placement matter?

Nostalgia and muscle memory.

[LoSBoL]

I think SQUAD realized they made a mistake by having the navball in the center, corrected it by making it slideable but didn't set something else than the middle as standard setting because of the muscle memory of the playerbase.

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

Because you keep trying to jam your opinion down my throat. You clearly do not understand that I am not trying to get kudos for being correct. I am merely trying to explain the reasoning behind navball placement.

Never said you were, I'm simply saying that the reasoning behind placing it in the middle only holds inside a physical cockpit.

[PDCWolf]

26 minutes ago, Spicat said:

So we agree that the navball shouldn't be at the center?

On the contrary, any problem created by the navball being on the center had a solution. The problems created by the navball being on the side don't until it's correctly sized (or at least scalable) and able to be moved back where it should.

16 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Nostalgia and muscle memory.

Speak for yourself. 

[Bej Kerman]

6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

On the contrary, any problem created by the navball being on the center had a solution

Those aren't solutions, those are workarounds.

6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

The problems created by the navball being on the side don't

The navball being a bit further into your peripheral is not a massive problem, and especially for people with accessibility needs who need the UI to be scaled up, having the navball in the middle would be a massive problem.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Bej Kerman

[PDCWolf]

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Those aren't solutions, those are workarounds.

No, that was literal game design.

10 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The navball being a bit further into your peripheral is not a massive problem, and especially for people with accessibility needs who need the UI to be scaled up, having the navball in the middle would be a massive problem.

And for people with reduced vision having the navball all the way on a corner means they can't look at their ship. 

[Spicat]

2 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

And for people with reduced vision having the navball all the way on a corner means they can't look at their ship. 

You can move the camera to make your ship more close to the navball. That's exactly the same "solution" as your "solution" to the navball at the center.

I agree that we should be able to move the navball (and it's planned), especially for people with ultrawide screen, but that's not at all an argument for navball at the center, ideally you still need it being offsetted to the side for it to not block your view. On a 1080p screen, to the side is perfect, on a 4K screen, offsetting it a little from the side is probably better, but still not at the dead center.

[Pthigrivi]

Listen everyone knows the correct place for the nav ball is exactly in the center of the screen both vertically and horizontally. Can’t miss it. In fact we should just get rid of all of the other UI and graphics. Kerbal Navball program. Think of the performance boost!

Edited November 9, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Bej Kerman]

21 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

30 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Those aren't solutions, those are workarounds.

No, that was literal game design.

"Just pan your camera". That's Squad's idea of game design, but not a good alternative to having the navball on the left.

22 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

And for people with reduced vision having the navball all the way on a corner means they can't look at their ship. 

The same holds for it being in the center, so it might as well be at the left so that said people with reduced vision and a ballooned UI don't also have to deal with their vessel being hidden behind the navball.

[PDCWolf]

13 minutes ago, Spicat said:

You can move the camera to make your ship more close to the navball. That's exactly the same "solution" as your "solution" to the navball at the center.

And then you waste half your screen on either empty space or the ground. Bruh.

13 minutes ago, Spicat said:

I agree that we should be able to move the navball (and it's planned), especially for people with ultrawide screen, but that's not at all an argument for navball at the center, ideally you still need it being offsetted to the side for it to not block your view. On a 1080p screen, to the side is perfect, on a 4K screen, offsetting it a little from the side is probably better, but still not at the dead center.

It only "blocks" your vision because it is bloated and oversized. Hopefully they revise it at some point. Scaling it down as it is right now would mean you still waste a lot of space on negative space and useless tapes.

8 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Listen everyone knows the correct place for the nav ball is exactly in the center of the screen both vertically and horizontally. Can’t miss it. 

I wonder where transparent huds go...

Opaque: Centered and bottom. Transparent: Right in the middle.

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

18 minutes ago, Spicat said:

You can move the camera to make your ship more close to the navball. That's exactly the same "solution" as your "solution" to the navball at the center.

And then you waste half your screen on either empty space or the ground. Bruh.

That's a funny way to say "and then half your screen is dedicated to being able to see the things around your vessel". So the entire reason you took this stance is because you want the screen to be restricted?

5 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

It only "blocks" your vision because it is bloated and oversized

Again, doublethink. You say the navball being big is bad, but at the same time you have no objection to the theoretical scenario where you have a user with poor eyesight who increases the UI scale and, as a result if the navball is centered, it blocks most of their view. And for the fifth (or sixth?) time, forcing the user to then pan around with the tiny slit of their screen left (effectively tunneling their in-game FOV) is a terrible idea and MMB is not a replacement for being able to see.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Bej Kerman

[Spicat]

9 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

And then you waste half your screen on either empty space or the ground. Bruh.

That's why I put "solution" between quotes, because that's the "solution" you suggested for landing which isn't one.

9 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

It only "blocks" your vision because it is bloated and oversized. Hopefully they revise it at some point. Scaling it down as it is right now would mean you still waste a lot of space on negative space and useless tapes.

I'm not even arguing about the bloat or the size of the navball, just the position. The same problem apply to ksp1 navball being at the center.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Spicat

[mcwaffles2003]

16 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Listen everyone knows the correct place for the nav ball is exactly in the center of the screen both vertically and horizontally. Can’t miss it. In fact we should just get rid of all of the other UI and graphics. Kerbal Navball program. Think of the performance boost!

 

[Bej Kerman]

11 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

[mcwaffles2003]

2 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Almost, but I can still see non-navball things. Also can you make the text smaller so I have to squint?

[The Aziz]

3 pages since I left to work?

 

[PDCWolf]

58 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That's a funny way to say "and then half your screen is dedicated to being able to see the things around your vessel". So the entire reason you took this stance is because you want the screen to be restricted?

On the contrary. The argument about having your screen restricted comes from willfully ignoring the tools the game gives you and the KSP2 navball being bloated and oversized.

58 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Again, doublethink. You say the navball being big is bad, but at the same time you have no objection to the theoretical scenario where you have a user with poor eyesight who increases the UI scale and, as a result if the navball is centered, it blocks most of their view. And for the fifth (or sixth?) time, forcing the user to then pan around with the tiny slit of their screen left (effectively tunneling their in-game FOV) is a terrible idea and MMB is not a replacement for being able to see.

You can reduce the size a lot without reducing text size or losing information, that's how badly designed the whole navball is. 

[Bej Kerman]

3 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

On the contrary. The argument about having your screen restricted comes from willfully ignoring the tools the game gives you and the KSP2 navball being bloated and oversized.

The size of the navball is way less of an issue if it's to the left.

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

You can reduce the size a lot without reducing text size or losing information, that's how badly designed the whole navball is. 

It's not the end of the world if the navball is 5% bigger than it could be, and I look forward to seeing your idea of what it should look like. Do you suggest that the sides of the navball should be cut off as if it were in a small window and that it should be up to the player to pan the navball window around if they want to bring different parts of the navball into view?

Jokes aside, please do make a mockup of what you think it should look like. Surprise me.

[PDCWolf]

3 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The size of the navball is way less of an issue if it's to the left.

It's not the end of the world if the navball is 5% bigger than it could be, and I look forward to seeing your idea of what it should look like. Do you suggest that the sides of the navball should be cut off as if it were in a small window and that it should be up to the player to pan the navball window around if they want to bring different parts of the navball into view?

Jokes aside, please do make a mockup of what you think it should look like. Surprise me.

You saw the PFD picture I uploaded as an example, that's as optimal as it can possible get whilst still keeping the tapes. If you remove the tapes (since they won't ever show useful information anyways) it can get even more compact.