KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Pthigrivi]

1 hour ago, Stoup said:

My point is that I have very diminished faith in the spirit of such statements, rather than in what they literally say.

I feel like at this point in my life I have a basic understanding of how corporate culture works and can read between the lines. Obviously anyone working for a company isn't going to bad mouth their product, or their management, or their peers. It seems kind of weird to me that anyone would expect them to. Within those constraints there's so much people can say. I work for a 6-person firm and those rules are true for us too. Everyone came into the KSP2 EA with expectations about that would look like and it's pretty clear the product in that moment way underperformed. All you have to do is look at the Steam rating to see that. I'm honestly surprised it's as high as it is. And to me thats the entire problem: the game is much buggier than an EA release should be. No amount of corporate happy talk or axe-grinding public flagellation will change the fundamental fact of the matter, so I find all the backseat complaining about Intercept's PR misplaced, pointless, and tedious. When we see Nate or Chris or Dakota or anyone from the actual dev team chiming in they're being good soldiers, trying to maintain a hopeful, positive attitude for the game and Im sure to a certain degree for themselves. Obviously they know what the reality is and that folks aren't happy so I see no utility in rubbing it in. But yeah, you're gonna have to take everything you read with a grain of salt, understand statements in the spirit they're meant, and not let yourself confuse subjective interpretations and unfulfilled expectations with malintent. The actual headline, main assertions--no microtransactions, none of the roadmap content on the way to 1.0 will cost extra, etc. are all pretty firm commitments and aren't just subjective interpretations about what "soon" means. I have no reason to believe they'd go back on actual promises. The actual people making this game are trying as hard as they can to push this game uphill so that it can be something really great. I feel like its okay to see them as people and let them do their jobs. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[moeggz]

They just delayed the re entry heat video, not the update, the video. 
 

until after summer.

a video.

delayed.

their apology was meaningless they can’t even just screen record their wip vfx for the next three weeks.

If I wanted to anger a community and burn most of the goodwill I honestly don’t know what I would do differently then what they are doing now.

Edited August 25, 2023 by moeggz

[Alexoff]

They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Maybe they are waiting for us to finally run away to play other games and they won't have to finish KSP2?

16 minutes ago, moeggz said:

If I wanted to anger a community and burn most of the goodwill I honestly don’t know what I would do differently then what they are doing now.

Well, they haven't posted pictures of what they had for lunch yet.

[Stewcooker]

1 hour ago, moeggz said:

They just delayed the re entry heat video, not the update, the video. 

Hi, I haven't seen anything about this yet. Where was this posted?

[moeggz]

Discord in the dev tracker and then in follow up messages

[PDCWolf]

Just now, moeggz said:

Discord in the dev tracker and then in follow up messages

The discord thing only shows Mike saying no news, can you post the rest? since they clearly can't be bothered.

[Pthigrivi]

1 hour ago, moeggz said:

If I wanted to anger a community and burn most of the goodwill I honestly don’t know what I would do differently then what they are doing now.

Is this really what you think they're doing though? Doesn't seem like over and over again they've shown things and folks have taken that as in implicit promise that thats what they're getting in a few weeks and then a few weeks go by and everyone throws a fit because their expectations weren't met? Maybe they've decided to be a little more cautious about releasing information? They already said reentry heat isn't coming until Science is released and thats months away. 

[The Aziz]

Devs: *announce a delay*

Community: FACTS! DELAY CONFIRMED, UNFORGIVABLE AND EXPECTED!

Devs: *announce literally anything else*

Community: nah bro, those are lies

[PDCWolf]

Just now, The Aziz said:

Devs: *announce a delay*

Community: FACTS! DELAY CONFIRMED, UNFORGIVABLE AND EXPECTED!

Devs: *announce literally anything else*

Community: nah bro, those are lies

You forgot the part where they mention a lot of stuff but we're not supposed to believe them because nothing is a promise, and even then they still fail to live up to anything they say. Credibility isn't black and white, there's levels to it, but they certainly have been actively working to degrade it further and further.

1 minute ago, Pthigrivi said:

Is this really what you think they're doing though? Doesn't seem like over and over again they've shown things and folks have taken that as in implicit promise that thats what they're getting in a few weeks and then a few weeks go by and everyone throws a fit because their expectations weren't met? Maybe they've decided to be a little more cautious about releasing information? They already said reentry heat isn't coming until Science is released and thats months away. 

Once again, part of the community doesn't believe there's a middle ground between having the magic ball and making 100% accurate, compromised promises and shotgunning statements all over the place that you consistently fail to fulfill.

 

[moeggz]

The CM Nerdy Mike thread. Search in the general chat. He says the ama and sound video aren’t to be expected for three weeks and then when asked about the reentry video for clarification he just says that they’ve done some filming. 
 

so looks like I mixed one reply for being about reentry effects, but also I think I’m still accurate as nothing else is to be expected for 3 weeks.

Yeah the one saying no sound video for three weeks is what I thought he was saying about the reentry video. So my bad I had it wrong.

However, saying not to expect all the other things  in three weeks while I misread his reply I bet I’m still accurate and we don’t get it for 3 more weeks.

[PDCWolf]

27 minutes ago, moeggz said:

The CM Nerdy Mike thread. Search in the general chat.

I've been publicly slandered and defamed on the discord, for sure, that doesn't mean I'm in it.

[moeggz]

Can’t take pictures tonight but can share transcript later. He replied to someone saying no sound video for three weeks, and not to expect any video until the end of summer but may not have meant the same summer most mean.

[PDCWolf]

23 minutes ago, moeggz said:

Can’t take pictures tonight but can share transcript later. He replied to someone saying no sound video for three weeks, and not to expect any video until the end of summer but may not have meant the same summer most mean.

Well, that's funny considering the following:

He said "or so" btw so we're completely fine. We just expected too much.

[Stephensan]

i mean i got to ask then, what video was they going to show last Friday then, then it got delayed?? because at this point it sounds like there was no video that we knew that was coming that was going to be the video. (if that doesn't make sense i took my sleepy meds it hits like the "fog")

[Periple]

6 hours ago, Stoup said:

My point is that I have very diminished faith in the spirit of such statements, rather than in what they literally say.

If you assume bad faith, then is there any statement at all that could satisfy you?

[moeggz]

54 minutes ago, Periple said:

If you assume bad faith, then is there any statement at all that could satisfy you?

The quote here applies “never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.”

I’m not blaming any individual, they all seem like good people who believe in KSP who are doing their best. But the company is big enough that every individual can be competent and smart but if the system is set up bad a lot of good people’s efforts could be wasted. 
 

I think even the most optimistic among us now admit something has gone wrong for it to stay in the state it is in for so long. 
 

So assuming incompetence (of the company, again thinking that everyone we have interacted with is intelligent and capable) for me what could satisfy me is simply results. Make the game better. If you just give dates or raise expectations meet them. That proves competence. I get that in game design dates can be hard, so I’d rather no dates but they keep giving us them just to miss them.

1 hour ago, Stephensan said:

i mean i got to ask then, what video was they going to show last Friday then, then it got delayed?? because at this point it sounds like there was no video that we knew that was coming that was going to be the video. (if that doesn't make sense i took my sleepy meds it hits like the "fog")

This is why, even tho I misread his posts (which I do apologize for) I think my emotional reaction isn’t changed much. 
 

They still gave us a date and some videos to look forward to with their apology. They then missed the date and not only that they delayed the video and have now gone a week without even mentioning what happened to it. How hard can a 10 minute screen capture of some vfx of the reentry hearing and a 10 minute video of a dev discussing it be?

They said 2 weeks ago we could expect this video in the coming weeks and it’s now confirmed it won’t be until at the soonest 3 weeks after that statement. 
 

This isn’t a delay on the patch for performance reasons, this is straight up promising a simple video, delaying it, and then ignoring it exists the next week. 
 

All his other replies seemed to imply that the community should not expect much for the next few weeks, so even tho I misread him I still think the video will be closer in time to what I read his response as then not.

You had an apology, a date, and some videos to look forward to. When the last two are delayed and then seemingly forgot about the apology isn’t worth much.

Edited August 26, 2023 by moeggz

[gussi111]

17 minutes ago, moeggz said:

The quote here applies “never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.”

I’m not blaming any individual, they all seem like good people who believe in KSP who are doing their best. But the company is big enough that every individual can be competent and smart but if the system is set up bad a lot of good people’s efforts could be wasted. 
 

I think even the most optimistic among us now admit something has gone wrong for it to stay in the state it is in for so long. 
 

So assuming incompetence (of the company, again thinking that everyone we have interacted with is intelligent and capable) for me what could satisfy me is simply results. Make the game better. If you just give dates or raise expectations meet them. That proves competence. I get that in game design dates can be hard, so I’d rather no dates but they keep giving us them just to miss them.

This is why, even tho I misread his posts (which I do apologize for) I think my emotional reaction isn’t changed much. 
 

They still gave us a date and some videos to look forward to with their apology. They then missed the date and not only that they delayed the video and have now gone a week without even mentioning what happened to it. How hard can a 10 minute screen capture of some vfx of the reentry hearing and a 10 minute video of a dev discussing it be?

They said 2 weeks ago we could expect this video in the coming weeks and it’s now confirmed it won’t be until at the soonest 3 weeks after that statement. 
 

This isn’t a delay on the patch for performance reasons, this is straight up promising a simple video, delaying it, and then ignoring it exists the next week. 
 

All his other replies seemed to imply that the community should not expect much for the next few weeks, so even tho I misread him I still think the video will be closer in time to what I read his response as then not.

You had an apology, a date, and some videos to look forward to. When the last two are delayed and then seemingly forgot about the apology isn’t worth much.

And I thought we would get science this year ;(

[Pthigrivi]

6 minutes ago, gussi111 said:

And I thought we would get science this year ;(

Im hoping we see the science update by early 24’. Maybe its a good idea for Intercept to set up a hope that it comes by next summer so anything sooner seems like a gift. If we’re going to behave in such a pedantic, unforgiving manner its probably best that they say and show absolutely nothing until a few days before new content is released. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[DunaManiac]

Honestly, my original opinion about the game remains unchanged. It's buggy, ultimately failed as a sequel, and there are times when I wonder whether players who share my strategy are even part of the intended audience. It feels like there's a weird mix between "haha kerbal go boom" reflected in the graphics and overall feel, and a realistic, methodical management game as reflected in the (unknown and unimplemented) colony gameplay. KSP1 has somewhat of the same problem but KSP2 exacerbates it by emphasizing the cartoonist aspect so much. 

Past is past, I believed we would've at least had science by now, and a much faster development. Part of me wonders whether things could ever have been different. But it seems like this entire project was flawed from the start, and even in an ideal world, we would've gotten the same result.

[moeggz]

3 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

best that they say and show absolutely nothing until a few days before new content is released. 

I mean it when I said the apology meant a lot to me. I assumed this would be there MO going forward. If science took another 6 months and it dropped without fanfare I would’ve stayed happy. 
 

But they gave a date and some things to expect and then immediately didn’t meet those expectations. 
 

What you read as being pedantic (and I’m not arguing here, your view is fair and I encourage you to share it) to me is accountability. They have not shown accountability. Later they even apologized for that. And that made me happy. And then they proceeded to move ahead without accountability and that frustrates me. Their words aren’t trustworthy, giving dates only leads to anger, and yet they keep giving dates.

I do try to be a forgiving person (as all other humans I always hope others are forgiving of me and I try and do the same to others) but there’s a fine line between forgiving and being gullible to the point of being strung along. 

[Pthigrivi]

1 minute ago, DunaManiac said:

Honestly, my original opinion about the game remains unchanged. It's buggy, ultimately failed as a sequel, and there are times when I wonder whether players who share my strategy are even part of the intended audience. It feels like there's a weird mix between "haha kerbal go boom" reflected in the graphics and overall feel, and a realistic, methodical management game as reflected in the (unknown and unimplemented) colony gameplay. KSP1 has somewhat of the same problem but KSP2 exacerbates it by emphasizing the cartoonist aspect so much. 

Past is past, I believed we would've at least had science by now, and a much faster development. Part of me wonders whether things could ever have been different. But it seems like this entire project was flawed from the start, and even in an ideal world, we would've gotten the same result.

I think the tone and graphics are pretty fantastic. This is a game about bug-eyed frogs who go to space. Planetary surfaces need work but thats part and parcel with performance issues. The conceptual basis remains really smart and a lot of the fundamental changes like acceleration under warp are absolutely critical to this game moving forward. The problem from release has been and continues to be an underbaked game with too many bugs to be easily enjoyable. The decision to force the release when they did wasn’t up to any of the individual artists or programmers or even Nate. That was a decision that could only be made by middle and upper managers at T2 and the dev team are victims of their lack of foresight as much as we are. 
 

Honestly yall is this not utterly obvious?

[moeggz]

3 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Honestly yall is this not utterly obvious?

I agree.

That’s why I made it clear I think everyone who has interacted with the community is capable, intelligent, and is honest about their intentions. My ranting is against the company as a whole, not attacking any individual dev who I believe is doing their best and is hamstrung by bad publishing decisions.

Edited August 26, 2023 by moeggz
Intentions somehow got auto corrected to expectations, so corrected here

[Pthigrivi]

7 minutes ago, moeggz said:

I mean it when I said the apology meant a lot to me. I assumed this would be there MO going forward. If science took another 6 months and it dropped without fanfare I would’ve stayed happy. 

But are you then more hung up on the day to day PR than the actual on the ground quality of the game? Words are wind. Maybe just move on and see what actually happens in 6 months? Ultimately none of this melodrama means a thing. If anything managing our emotions is a massive distraction from solving the fundamental issues. 

3 minutes ago, moeggz said:

I agree.

That’s why I made it clear I think everyone who has interacted with the community is capable, intelligent, and is honest about their intentions. My ranting is against the company as a whole, not attacking any individual dev who I believe is doing their best and is hamstrung by bad publishing decisions.

No I know. Thats why Ive conversed with you in a much more open manner, because it’s obvious you’re as frustrated as I am and thats utterly reasonable. Still though these are all people. The kid on the other end of a customer service call might work for a huge, obnoxious company but they’re still just a person trying to do a job well as they can. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[moeggz]

2 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

But are you then more hung up on the day to day PR than the actual on the ground quality of the game? Words are wind. Maybe just move on and see what actually happens in 6 months? Ultimately none of this melodrama means a thing. If anything managing our emotions is a massive distraction from solving the fundamental issues. 

That’s a fair point. And I agree with your conclusion, I’d rather they communicate less and do something then micromanage community sentiment. 
 

The other side, is, to me, that they already got 6 months and it hasn’t changed much. A decent amount of bugs got fixed but the biggest that prevent serious play without frustration remain. 
 

To you, words are wind. To me, if you just apologized for being misleading (even unintentionally)and then immediately do it again I feel a breakdown in mutual respect. 
 

But we have a clear poll now on the expectations they have set with the majority of the community. If they can meet or exceed those we will finally be out of this endless wheel spinning. If not, I don’t believe my love for and desire for a new KSP will be stronger than my irritation at having reality be so much lower than my expectations for a year.

            

[Periple]

8 minutes ago, moeggz said:

What you read as being pedantic (and I’m not arguing here, your view is fair and I encourage you to share it) to me is accountability. They have not shown accountability. Later they even apologized for that. And that made me happy. And then they proceeded to move ahead without accountability and that frustrates me. Their words aren’t trustworthy, giving dates only leads to anger, and yet they keep giving dates.

I agree, they talk too much!

They should simply shut down all communications and focus on making the game, dropping patches and updates when they’re ready. The only communication they need are release notes.

Later on if they want to solicit actionable feedback on game balance or mechanics that they can’t get via telemetry then maybe ask about that. But all these announcements, AMAs, dev blogs, bug status updates etc are doing more harm than good. They only add fuel to the fire!