KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Yakuzi]

12 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

In those places though, where bad-faith among worse conduct is commonplace, I have the ability to interrogate motive. This allows you to undo bad-faith by untying false pretenses and lay bare another’s true feelings where they may be examined under the light of day. Bad ideas wither quickly under genuine scrutiny. Being about a specific GA product this board requires a different set of rules for conduct which is completely reasonable and understandable. Its a funny problem though because bad-faith is difficult to define and combat as point of moderation because it’s designed not to break explicit rules, and yet we are not allowed to dig deeper into what a poster genuinely means when their intent is be deliberately disruptive in order to draw attention. What to do?

While I appreciate your commitment, we all have biases so I'm genuinely curious how you decide what is bad faith and what is not. On this forum for instance, have you noticed bad faith arguments from KSP2 critics only, or also from its praisers and its developer?

[Pthigrivi]

8 minutes ago, Yakuzi said:

While I appreciate your commitment, we all have biases so I'm genuinely curious how you decide what is bad faith and what is not. On this forum for instance, have you noticed bad faith arguments from KSP2 critics only, or also from its praisers and its developer?

Oh for sure you see this from folks all the time, and most of the folks who are upset are just genuinely venting. The state of the game was really bad when it was first released. It's gotten better for sure but there are still big problems, so I don't even disagree with critics. This isn't a question of who has the right opinion, its a question of tactics. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[PDCWolf]

56 minutes ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

What was promised when by the devs? 

From youtube creators, pre-release event, and so on:

https://youtu.be/wbZ6M9Whyc4

1. "Will enter Early Access in a pretty high quality state, completely playable"
2. "How complete will the game be at launch?" "Nate assured me the game on launch won't be in pre-alpha, alpha, or beta, it'll just be released... with some caveats"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XFxyeciMQU

1. "There should be updates on the weeks not months timescales"
2. "We're gonna keep our communication very open so people know what is on the build".

https://youtu.be/Jw42iC-mlZM

1. "We fully expect people like you to find the outer [part] limit and we're not putting a hard constraint on the part count. [...] Hopefully that's a much(x3) higher part count than you would've experience in 1"

From their stuff on the forums, from pre and post release:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/212081-kerbal-space-program-2-pre-release-notes/

1. "Re-entry heating and thermal systems are offline - you'll have a brief window here at the beginning of Early Access during which you can re-enter any atmosphere without a heat shield." (Emphasis mine)

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/216273-patch-two-on-approach/

1. "We've also begun some investigations into improving the current wobbly rocket situation, and we should have more to discuss on that subject soon."  (Emphasis mine, this was April 7th)

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/214806-developer-insights-18-graphics-of-early-access-ksp2/

1. "In the medium term, my first major project on this team is to design and build a next-generation terrain system" (Some freedom taken to point out "medium term" shouldn't mean more than a year).

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/208209-release-date-update-from-the-ksp2-team/

1. Literally everything said on the video, which was months before they downgraded to Early Access.

I'm sure there's more, but I have time constraints, and googling ability constraints right now as I don't keep their every word in memory. There's also the fact we can always loop back to the release dates for a full product as the quintessential promises they broke. We could also reduce our mental age and said they never mentioned the word "promise" and thus nothing was promised, and there's no point in us being here since KSP2 is not promised to exist or be a product or reach this or that stage in development.

 

[Bej Kerman]

3 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

We could also reduce our mental age and said they never mentioned the word "promise" and thus nothing was promised, and there's no point in us being here since KSP2 is not promised to exist or be a product or reach this or that stage in development.

We aren't the people saying development is easy and that the devs are bad people for realising their earlier plans were not realistic.

[Dakitess]

It's a good synthesis, thanks

[Vanamonde]

Since the player count thread has drifted into a repetition of the discussion already being held here, the threads have been merged. 

[Alexoff]

5 hours ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

What was promised when by the devs? 

Addition tos what was said by PDCWolf

Initial release of Early Access will include: ... Improved experience for new and returning players    ()

Will there be mods during early access?

We expect modders to dig into KSP2 on day one. We recognize that the modding community has played a big role in the longevity of KSP, and we continue to be impressed by the mods that are released. The intent with KSP 2 is to improve the modding experience even further, and we look forward to hearing feedback from modders over the course of early access.

[LoSBoL]

3 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

We expect modders to dig into KSP2 on day one.

As they did.

3 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

We recognize that the modding community has played a big role in the longevity of KSP, and we continue to be impressed by the mods that are released.

Probably true, I recall Linuxguru has already been praised.

3 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

The intent with KSP 2 is to improve the modding experience even further, and we look forward to hearing feedback from modders over the course of early access.

Early access isn't over yet.

Edited August 17, 2023 by LoSBoL

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

Initial release of Early Access will include: ... Improved experience for new and returning players    ()

You are misquoting: 

Quote

• Improved experience for new and returning players

  • Animated Tutorials

  • Improved User Interface

  • Upgraded Map View

Also, don't see anything that is "promised" here? 

And, small quotes from some videos ages ago some period before release should not be interpreted as a "promise". 

If you do this, you are bound to get disappointed. 

And yeah, we get it. Release was bad. Comms were terrible. That was ages ago. But ok, continue the discussions if you want, @PDCWolf and @Alexoff

[Alexoff]

2 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

As they did.

Yes, I remember the letter. Do I need to show the link again?

2 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

Early access isn't over yet.

Oh, those slippery phrases! Where is mod support in the roadmap? To the right of the multiplayer?

1 hour ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

You are misquoting

Yes, I saw it, but hardly anyone then could have thought that this would be the end of it all. I don't like this ui too.

1 hour ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

And, small quotes from some videos ages ago some period before release should not be interpreted as a "promise".

Has anything changed since then?

[Bej Kerman]

38 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

I don't like this ui too.

You are free to play KSP 1, behold its glorious 2003 UI and forget this part of the forum ever existed 

[PDCWolf]

6 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

realising their earlier plans were not realistic.

They never said this, so it's a personal assumption at best.

3 hours ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

And yeah, we get it. Release was bad. Comms were terrible. That was ages ago.

Bug Status 8/11 did not show up, they slowed communications and were missing last week too, plus insulting Reddit... Comms improved and then got bad again. Release being bad is something universally known, the reasons and owning it up is still pending.

[jebycheek]

7 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

From youtube creators, pre-release event, and so on:

https://youtu.be/wbZ6M9Whyc4

1. "Will enter Early Access in a pretty high quality state, completely playable"
2. "How complete will the game be at launch?" "Nate assured me the game on launch won't be in pre-alpha, alpha, or beta, it'll just be released... with some caveats"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XFxyeciMQU

1. "There should be updates on the weeks not months timescales"
2. "We're gonna keep our communication very open so people know what is on the build".

https://youtu.be/Jw42iC-mlZM

1. "We fully expect people like you to find the outer [part] limit and we're not putting a hard constraint on the part count. [...] Hopefully that's a much(x3) higher part count than you would've experience in 1"

From their stuff on the forums, from pre and post release:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/212081-kerbal-space-program-2-pre-release-notes/

1. "Re-entry heating and thermal systems are offline - you'll have a brief window here at the beginning of Early Access during which you can re-enter any atmosphere without a heat shield." (Emphasis mine)

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/216273-patch-two-on-approach/

1. "We've also begun some investigations into improving the current wobbly rocket situation, and we should have more to discuss on that subject soon."  (Emphasis mine, this was April 7th)

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/214806-developer-insights-18-graphics-of-early-access-ksp2/

1. "In the medium term, my first major project on this team is to design and build a next-generation terrain system" (Some freedom taken to point out "medium term" shouldn't mean more than a year).

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/208209-release-date-update-from-the-ksp2-team/

1. Literally everything said on the video, which was months before they downgraded to Early Access.

I'm sure there's more, but I have time constraints, and googling ability constraints right now as I don't keep their every word in memory. There's also the fact we can always loop back to the release dates for a full product as the quintessential promises they broke. We could also reduce our mental age and said they never mentioned the word "promise" and thus nothing was promised, and there's no point in us being here since KSP2 is not promised to exist or be a product or reach this or that stage in development.

 

Unbelievable. textbook level of full of excrements.

Profit out of scam and then purify the fans, shame on you private division, though is clearly you do not give a crap about shame.

[Pthigrivi]

Anyway the AMA today was pretty dope. First one Ive been able to listen in on live. Lots of cool info on process and how real life and speculative tech translates to working game assets. I know it takes a bit of time out of devs schedule but getting a window in is great. I still have lots of questions about science but hopefully we get more detail soon. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Superfluous J]

5 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Oh, those slippery phrases! Where is mod support in the roadmap? To the right of the multiplayer?

So you will not be satisfied by anything short of, "Full Mod support will be enacted on Thursday, October 12th at 4:38pm UTC" and if it comes out at 4:39 they're liars.

[LoSBoL]

7 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Yes, I remember the letter. Do I need to show the link again?

Ah, the letter, The very hungry caterpillar does not seem to have liked the answer given on the letter. But here's a link for you though, as expected, modders are gonna mod;

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/128-kerbal-space-program-2-mods/

7 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Oh, those slippery phrases! Where is mod support in the roadmap? To the right of the multiplayer?

Right next to Kerbal chutes.

Edited August 18, 2023 by LoSBoL

[Pthigrivi]

Hey and if folks are cool with legit, honest conversations where people actually listen to each other and can be open and critical about ideas they like and don't like and understand what conjecture and subjectivity mean head on over to the Resources Thread *Blinky lights**Arrow pointing* 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[The Aziz]

My answer to the question in that thread would be just "yes" ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[PDCWolf]

8 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

So you will not be satisfied by anything short of, "Full Mod support will be enacted on Thursday, October 12th at 4:38pm UTC" and if it comes out at 4:39 they're liars.

Now that is bad faith.

6 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

Ah, the letter, The very hungry caterpillar does not seem to have liked the answer given on the letter. But here's a link for you though, as expected, modders are gonna mod;

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/128-kerbal-space-program-2-mods/

Right next to Kerbal chutes.

The answer to that letter is laughable. "We have a foundation to build our internal mod tools, no you can't have them, or see them, and we can't also tell you our plans" and then Dakota goes on for the performance scapegoat when all the performance optimizations have been reducing the quality of the game and removing objects from screen. If anything, the fact that the details from that reply haven't changed in 5 months is worrying.

[The Aziz]

A couple of days ago it was the 12th anniversary of me discovering this franchise.

What a ride

[cocoscacao]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

We have a foundation to build our internal mod tools, no you can't have them, or see them, and we can't also tell you our plans

Funny. All I can read from his answer is that thing will become available when it's finished. What's the problem with that? 

[PDCWolf]

4 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Funny. All I can read from his answer is that thing will become available when it's finished. What's the problem with that? 

Ain't that the case for the whole game... also you might've realized by now that confidence in their communication vary wildly from person to person, and by my previous post I dare to say such a variation is well justified.

[cocoscacao]

2 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Ain't that the case for the whole game

It is. What's the problem with that? 

Edited August 18, 2023 by cocoscacao

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

It is. What's the problem with that? 

That it's been 6 months and we're still in ifs, maybes, no promises-s, we'll look-s, and we plan-s from the same people that made that list of at the very least, misleading statements up above.

I guess whoever is looking might now realize why the arguments look so circular and repetitive. The only "argument" is pointing back to whatever the devs said, yet it's the same devs that haven't been able to hold a word for 3+ years and refuse to make any compromise unless it's 2 weeks in the future.

Edited August 18, 2023 by PDCWolf

[TwoCalories]

Well guys, today's Friday! We've got big KSP2 news promised today and the Chris Adderley AMA answers! That's something positive, isn't it?