KSP 2 is a perfectly playable early access game (v0.1.4)

[Kerbart]

6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

For all the toxic positivity around, it seems it's limited to posting on the forums and not actually playing the game. 400 peak on release, next day already dropped. This is half the pull than the previous update had. At least this might help understand that time is indeed a limited resource. If they take 10 years to make it, they'll end up making a game for 10 people.

I wouldn't call the positivity toxic; it seems that with this release it's (partially) warranted. But, but, but...

The lack of content now xlearly becomes apparent. But that's what the community wanted; focus on the bugs. Yes, because the bugs made the game a total disaster. You can play around lack of content for a while; run amazing, complex missions. Except that the game punishes you for that; ships disappear or explode when taking control of them, and which one was my refueler, Safe-Flight-12 or Safe-Flight-23 because you can't rename them (something seemingly insignificant but becoming a problem if you have longer running saves).

Yes, we're now at a point, it seems, that playing decent sandbox becomes possible. The problem is that being limited to single-session to-Mun-and-back missions wear out. Six months is a long time. Science is at least one update away. That makes it two months. Likely, two updates. That's 4 months. And at that point it's so tantalizingly close to the (sad) one year anniversary of EA that it might be used to crown that sad occasion. And there still are bugs.

IG did an amazing job hyping the game. We did an amazing job hyping ourselves, egged on my IG. Now we all have that after-party hangover. The trick will be to get players back into the game. By now when I look at the KSP2 main menu I feel resentment, not a joyous "what am I going to do now" feeling and I really want to get that back, but it's hard to imagine how. Once things get more interesting player count might go up, but there's a chance many players have completely checked out by then. IG doesn't seem to think the glacial development pace is an issue, but it really is at this point.

[Alpha_star]

Just a quick fact to make up my opinion:

There has been 705 bug fixes and 8 new parts since initial launch. Comparing various videos, the frame rate increase is around 80% to 120%.

I’m not saying that the progress is fast or anything, but the game is much better now than initial release. I believe that they should focus on new content in the future but still not now, considering that orbital decay is still present.

Once they squash most of the most annoying bugs, they should focus on content.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Alpha_star

[Alexoff]

35 minutes ago, gluckez said:

yes, there's lots of people here and the people doing the actual developing of the game, are busy doing the actual developing of the game. and most of the time I wouldn't answer either if someone is just ranting about something tiny.

Then there is nothing to brag about. There is no answer to the most frequently asked question why KSP2 is in such a state that it is now. And there are no answers to many other burning questions. What science will look like and much more - there are no answers. Really, who are we to answer such insignificant questions?!

[Stephensan]

2 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Then there is nothing to brag about. There is no answer to the most frequently asked question why KSP2 is in such a state that it is now. And there are no answers to many other burning questions. What science will look like and much more - there are no answers. Really, who are we to answer such insignificant questions?!

we might get some answers with the video or something today with what mike and someone else leaked on.

 

doubt it with the science however its been in the dark.

[PDCWolf]

16 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Yeah well, did you consider the fact that all the negativity is discouraging people to try the game again to see that it's in a good state now? That's my whole argument if you read my posts.

Couldn't read them all because some of them got deleted, apparently because you're enforcing your way of thinking on others (I could still see them on another platform). Having tried 0.1.4, no, the game is not on a good state (and I voted such on the poll). The game is definitely better than it was at 0.1.0, I'll give you that, but I'll also tell you that almost any game, even some scam asset flips on Steam, come out in a better state. Also when you gauge how much better the game has gotten, versus the time it took... yeah, it kinda offsets it a lot.

As for positivity of the forum itself, it doesn't matter, they have the discord for that and that's clearly where they hang out after "cultivating their community" to hound you if you dare not praise them 24/7

 

[Alexoff]

It seems to me that the title of the topic is too clickbait and inciting - KSP2 and perfect in one phrase can cause indignation among many.

[PDCWolf]

13 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

I wouldn't call the positivity toxic; it seems that with this release it's (partially) warranted. But, but, but...

The lack of content now xlearly becomes apparent. But that's what the community wanted; focus on the bugs. Yes, because the bugs made the game a total disaster. You can play around lack of content for a while; run amazing, complex missions. Except that the game punishes you for that; ships disappear or explode when taking control of them, and which one was my refueler, Safe-Flight-12 or Safe-Flight-23 because you can't rename them (something seemingly insignificant but becoming a problem if you have longer running saves).

Yes, we're now at a point, it seems, that playing decent sandbox becomes possible. The problem is that being limited to single-session to-Mun-and-back missions wear out. Six months is a long time. Science is at least one update away. That makes it two months. Likely, two updates. That's 4 months. And at that point it's so tantalizingly close to the (sad) one year anniversary of EA that it might be used to crown that sad occasion. And there still are bugs.

IG did an amazing job hyping the game. We did an amazing job hyping ourselves, egged on my IG. Now we all have that after-party hangover. The trick will be to get players back into the game. By now when I look at the KSP2 main menu I feel resentment, not a joyous "what am I going to do now" feeling and I really want to get that back, but it's hard to imagine how. Once things get more interesting player count might go up, but there's a chance many players have completely checked out by then. IG doesn't seem to think the glacial development pace is an issue, but it really is at this point.

Positivity becomes toxic both when it goes against common sense, and when it is enforced. Sure, the mods stopped it, but people tried, this thread is probably the peak of that. I agree with the rest of your post, though I did not fall for the hype (you won't see me in hype threads). It's different for everyone, but I was already smelling sour stuff back when everything they could show after the amazing trailer was clay renders and unity editor asset scenes. I've been called names and told to shut up since like 2020 (for KSP2, for KSP1 it's even before that) so at this point it just slides off.

24 minutes ago, Stephensan said:

A game far from being enjoyable, and just playable enough to be able to "play" at 6 month...  People expected more content by this point, and well, we aren't even at heating visuals, let alone heating in ksp 2, in 6 months, 2023 isn't kind to this slow development.. longer bug fix updates, less communications, zero new content, people will just stop playing, and stop caring about the game, and once they leave they won't come back due to the sour taste of the initial playing of ksp 2. The changes have to be leaps and bounds better, compared to when they stopped playing.

I'm not gonna discuss that there's people patiently watching, that have all the control in the world and the will to see KSP2 through, no matter how long it takes. However, we have to remember that they're a business first and foremost, specially with TakeTwo on their back. If they're gonna develop 1.0 for the 10? 100? 1000? people that will wait the years it takes for 1.0, then it is clear the project isn't profitable, and god forbid they pull a SQUAD for 1.0, just waking up a day and deciding to call it that just to move on. Time is a very limited resource in regards to garnered interest around the game, a lot of the people that lost interest will not come back. This is not KSP1, KSP1 is one of the very few games to have a positive trend curve for most of its EA life.

[gluckez]

40 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Then there is nothing to brag about. There is no answer to the most frequently asked question why KSP2 is in such a state that it is now. And there are no answers to many other burning questions. What science will look like and much more - there are no answers. Really, who are we to answer such insignificant questions?!

It's been explained many times before. It is in this state, because the developers want the bugs out of the foundation of the game so they have a stronger foundation to build the features on. it's very simple actually. just because you don't accept that, doesn't mean there is no answer. Also, we have a pretty good idea of what science will look like, as well as the rest of the features. Science will be very similar to how it was in ksp1, but there is still room for changes, as the feature is currently not enabled for the public.

[Dakitess]

Oh ? Please, tell us about Science, with source, please.

[Speeding Mullet]

13 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

It seems to me that the title of the topic is too clickbait and inciting - KSP2 and perfect in one phrase can cause indignation among many.

Perfectly in the context of OPs use of the word would carry nuance to the effect of - OP is emphasising that the game is playable and enjoyable, but some people may disagree.  It's a "perfectly" legitimate use of the word 

My experience as a well-seasoned player of both games - Having played the latest patch yesterday and today I agree with OP that the latest patch is a huge step forward.  I threw together a reasonably complex 8 stage Duna rocket with 4 step EDL aeroshell deployment this evening and every single part of the mission from design to landing went perfectly and was bug free, with the exception of the trajectory line bug occurring (this was solved by quitting and reloading).  In prior patches I had to work hard to avoid bugs, with this one I had to work to try and create them and mostly failed.

In prior patches I observed that you really have to be quite an experienced KSP player with good knowledge of how to mitigate existing bugs and a modicum of patience in order to enjoy the game, but I genuinely don't think that is the case anymore.  Even without all the features that obviously have to be added to draw players over or in I still found my session to be a pretty compelling experience.  There's a really good base to progress from here now, and I'd encourage anyone to give it a go.

SM

[Alexoff]

22 minutes ago, gluckez said:

It's been explained many times before. It is in this state, because the developers want the bugs out of the foundation of the game so they have a stronger foundation to build the features on. it's very simple actually. just because you don't accept that, doesn't mean there is no answer. Also, we have a pretty good idea of what science will look like, as well as the rest of the features. Science will be very similar to how it was in ksp1, but there is still room for changes, as the feature is currently not enabled for the public.

This contradicts your statement about the openness of developers. We are offered to just believe, apparently we are too young and stupid to dedicate us to the development of the game.

16 minutes ago, Speeding Mullet said:

There's a really good base to progress from here now, and I'd encourage anyone to give it a go.

It depends on the level of requirements of the person. Someone is insanely glad that they did not meet the kraken, someone is indignant that there is nothing to do in the game and it is only a quarter of what the person expected to receive.

[Kerbart]

29 minutes ago, gluckez said:

It's been explained many times before. It is in this state, because the developers want the bugs out of the foundation of the game so they have a stronger foundation to build the features on. i

I think what’s alluded to is the state of the game when it was released after five years of development. In fairness, it’s unrealistic to expect an answer to that. There are guesses out there that sound pretty legit, and are probably spot on, but we’ll never know.

As to “stabilize before adding features”, I’m pretty sure everyone was on board with that. That’s because “expect that it will take six months before you can play a featureless sandbox without rage-quitting in the first five minutes” wasn’t added (and unlikely, planned either). But it’s where we are now.

I look forward to the new features, but my expectations regarding the gruesome pace have been set by now. It’s not a surprise there’s a lot of pessimism on *when*, let alone *if*, we’ll see the end of the roadmap.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Kerbart
Used markdown formatting first

[Carraux]

6 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Hear me: KSP 2 is now in a better playable state and more fun than what KSP 1 was in it's early stages. It's not the game that's changed, it's you. So allow people starting out to enjoy this game and stop discouraging new players from trying it out.

I hear you, but I do not agree with you.

And stop blaming the gamers, it's not their fault.

[gluckez]

8 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

This contradicts your statement about the openness of developers. We are offered to just believe, apparently we are too young and stupid to dedicate us to the development of the game.

This doesn't, at all, contradict what I said about their openness. My comment about their openness was about the progress they are making, about what will be in patches, and about the fact that you
can communicate with them directly here and in other places. What more do you want? You want them to come hold your hand while you decompile the code so you can verify that, yes, there are in
fact locked features in the game? You want them to come to you personally, and sit down with you and explain to that one kid in class that didn't hear it, why they're doing it this way?
What is there to "just believe", did you not get proof of anything ever? so no screenshots and gameplay? no ama's? no countless dev diaries, explaining exactly what they are doing and what they are paying
attention to? 

[cocoscacao]

33 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

I look forward to the new features, but my expectations regarding the gruesome pace have been set by now.

It's been set for me from the moment they've announced more delays between patches. Considering what they want to do, I'm not surprised. I don't mind if they don't add a single feature within the next 6 months. Just iron out the base mechanics to perfection. Everything else looks a lot more easier to develop, from my layman point of view...

[Meecrob]

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Yeah well, did you consider the fact that all the negativity is discouraging people to try the game again to see that it's in a good state now? That's my whole argument if you read my posts.

People know what KSP is. If anything KSP2 is ruining the legacy, not our complaints on this board about how KSP2 is objectively not ready to be a successor, because its not.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Meecrob

[Chilkoot]

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

But that's what the community wanted; focus on the bugs.

Just to clarify, it was *critical* bugs first, followed by performance, then features, then "other bugs".  We've seen a lot of focus on "other bugs" in the patches (annoyances, not game-breakers).

This poll had ~100 responses, so it's getting statistically relevant, but the respondents are all forum members here, so a narrow demographic.

The way Intercept has been focusing on bugs does jive with their stated roadmap of fully solidifying the base sandbox, then moving to content, so this is perhaps Intercept sticking to their own roadmap, and not listening too closely to the community for priority.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Chilkoot

[Alexoff]

39 minutes ago, gluckez said:

This doesn't, at all, contradict what I said about their openness. My comment about their openness was about the progress they are making, about what will be in patches, and about the fact that you
can communicate with them directly here and in other places. What more do you want? You want them to come hold your hand while you decompile the code so you can verify that, yes, there are in
fact locked features in the game? You want them to come to you personally, and sit down with you and explain to that one kid in class that didn't hear it, why they're doing it this way?
What is there to "just believe", did you not get proof of anything ever? so no screenshots and gameplay? no ama's? no countless dev diaries, explaining exactly what they are doing and what they are paying
attention to? 

Openness is the release of patches for the game in this state? Cool! Openness is almost not carrying useful information AMAs? There were very few devdiaries in half a year, they had little specifics. What have we seen from science? What did we see from the heating? Three and a half screenshots and two animations? This is not openness, but a continuation of the hype.

[Chilkoot]

23 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

If anything KSP2 is ruining the legacy

There's a scene in the making of the Phantom Menace documentary where Lucas is overheard saying, "You can ruin these things, you know" (referring to franchises with cult-level followings).  Fingers crossed that KSP 2 is not the Phantom Menace to Squad's Star Wars trilogy.

[gluckez]

6 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Openness is the release of patches for the game in this state? Cool! Openness is almost not carrying useful information AMAs? There were very few devdiaries in half a year, they had little specifics. What have we seen from science? What did we see from the heating? Three and a half screenshots and two animations? This is not openness, but a continuation of the hype.

So openness to you means explaining yourself every tiny step of the way? showing every line of code you add constantly? working with a camera pointed at your face? For a dev team, they are extremely transparent, you won't find any like this. So you can't possibly say they're not transparent, that would be a gross exaggeration. 

 

9 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

they had little specifics.

what exactly do you mean with "specifics"? the exact lines of code that would change in the game? If they knew that, they would've already written it, that's something you can't predict as you're designing a feature. 

[ArmchairGravy]

The game is still a barely playable hot, buggy mess. When I can put a rover on Mun next to a lander without encountering decaying orbits, jumping landers, and disintegrating time warps then come talk to me about playability and enjoyment. Currently the game remains an exercise in frustration because of how little actually works.

[Meecrob]

5 hours ago, gluckez said:

wow, you know I left the ksp subreddit exactly because of how toxic of a community it had become

Maybe they should make a game that doesn't suck? That should cut down on the toxicity. Its not reddit, its the game.

[gluckez]

Just now, Meecrob said:

Its not reddit, its the game.

nah, it's definitely reddit. There's also people who have a little bit of patience, understand what "early access" means and are enjoying themselves. but there's also a bunch of toxic people who will downvote anything related to the game, and go to forums dedicated to a specific game to rant about it instead of just playing something they do like.

[Meecrob]

Way to not answer the first part of what I said.

1 minute ago, gluckez said:

 

 

[gluckez]

Just now, Meecrob said:

Way to not answer the first part of what I said.

about how you think the game sucks? that's on purpose, because I disagree. I'm not gonna get into an argument about that again, only toxic people keep starting the same argument over and over again.