You promised us communication, where is it?

[JWag]

One can be disappointed with the progress, point out shortcomings, and push for better communication without using corrosive language.

[Stoup]

Yeah, I think at this point it's less about whether or not the game is actually good or not (cause it's in a bad state right now for sure) and more about the fact that many people feel so burned off of trying to invest in playing the game. And if we're not playing the game, we can't discuss how things are going in the game, the things we create there, the stories we have... a lot of the things that make up a good community vibe. I wish there were something more to be done about it, but it definitely leaves me feeling grateful for people who are powering through the grit to keep making content. I've enjoyed watching that thread about circumnavigating Ike, and it's nice to see people like Socraticat keeping a KSP2 channel populated with a fair bit of content!

I know we have weekly challenges, but maybe one way communication could be improved could be more direct interaction with, for example, community managers? Like, maybe livestreams playing the game, or short mini-challenges throughout the week, that kind of thing. I'm sure SOMETHING more can be done

Edited September 19, 2023 by Stoup

[Superfluous J]

5 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Oh this bad community! They constantly write about the problems of the game and the poor work of the developers (including their PR department), why don’t they talk about the merits of the game in a variety of ways with good arguments! Or fantasize about the fact that there is a magnificent game hidden somewhere in a closet that is being hidden from us

Or how about we do neither, and instead report bugs and make suggestions and then see how things go?

I know that'd be pretty freaky but I'd love to see it tried.

[The Aziz]

No no, that would be repetitive just like neverending bickering here. People clearly don't want that, right?

[cocoscacao]

On 9/18/2023 at 7:38 PM, VlonaldKerman said:

Throughout history, by this standard, most working people have had to tolerate “abuse”.

Been there. And I wouldn't put that word under quotes, because it was very real. But my generation was taught by our parents that you need to endure certain things. That's character. Then the new generation came, and quickly taught me to grow a pair and show middle finger instead. There are plenty of opportunities elsewhere.

Edited September 20, 2023 by cocoscacao

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

No no, that would be repetitive just like neverending bickering here. People clearly don't want that, right?

I would love repetitive useful communication that results in repetitive solid results and repetitive updates with repetitive milestones being checked off the roadmap.

The problem was never the repetition. It's that the repetition is continually of useless stuff.

[Alexoff]

19 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Or how about we do neither, and instead report bugs and make suggestions and then see how things go?

I know that'd be pretty freaky but I'd love to see it tried.

Did you previously hide the bugs you found from the developers?! That's why they haven't been fixed yet!

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Did you previously hide the bugs you found from the developers?

I've found no bugs. But in KSP1 I reported quite a few. A few suggestions as well and some were even incorporated into the game.

When I play KSP2 though I'll be reporting bugs, yes.

[Alexoff]

10 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

When I play KSP2 though I'll be reporting bugs, yes

How interesting, you are active on the forum and have your own opinion, but you haven’t even played KSP2?

[Hotel26]

On 9/16/2023 at 11:39 PM, gluckez said:

as toxic as reddit

very much getting that way, thanks to les agents provocateur...

Edited September 21, 2023 by Hotel26

[PDCWolf]

Welcome everyone to Fall! Hotfix Summer is over!

Stats:

• Hotfixes launched during Hotfix Summer: 2
• Time from update 1.3.0 to hotfix 1.3.1: 5 days.
• Time from hotfix 1.3.1 to hotfix 1.3.2: 14 days.
• Total bugs fixed with hotfixes launched during Hotfix Summer: 4

Thank you all for participating on what's been yet another PR stunt with next to nothing to show for it.

 

[razark]

  If only they had clearly said what that meant...

On 6/30/2023 at 4:21 PM, Dakota said:

Hah, I brought this up when we were trying to figure out the title for this one. "Hotfix Summer" is just a joke related to the phrase "hotgirl summer," and does not imply that additional hotfixes are coming past the second one mentioned above.

 

But then, if they said it, it wouldn't matter, because anything they say is completely and utterly suspect.

[Stephensan]

with the update caindence it feels like the summer rush has ended.. anyway on a sadder note why this is happening;

The statement from mike it ain't going get better in the following weeks, infact it will be in general worse due to mike being on leave during the holiday season, more than just the normal holiday season off week(s).

so even if they get a new SMM, we are still down 1-2 social media members.

I have statements about how lack of content, lack of communication, lack of game mechanics, lack of science information, lack of reentry, and the lack of videos are affecting the active playerbase, but its "not correlated" overall.. Its 7 months down the line and struggling to even get reentry out.. user retention is at a real low, and reading that besides the normal holiday season off, mike will also be off is just troublesome in my eyes even if there is a new member incoming..

[Stoup]

I feel like they said the same thing about wanting to revisit their communication strategy, several months ago. Kinda feels weird to just hear that apparently there's not progress on whatever that tangibly really means? I know things like the KERB have popped up, but I don't really feel like that scratches the itch

[regex]

2 hours ago, Stoup said:

I feel like they said the same thing about wanting to revisit their communication strategy, several months ago. Kinda feels weird to just hear that apparently there's not progress on whatever that tangibly really means?

Probably just a wild guess but when they do deliver news and the majority of vocal (and repetitive) responses are "it's weak", "it's not enough", "it's not transparent enough", "you're not working hard enough", and so on, regardless of the format or what they try, and when news just generates the same circular [snip] around their corporate structure, what they promised, what happened, why the game isn't where it "should be", well, I know I would be wondering if it was even worth "communicating", because clearly there's no communication with people who don't believe you're acting in good faith and in response, act in bad faith themselves.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Vanamonde

[Stoup]

I mean, I'd think it'd be tragic if they allowed people who fit that description dictate how their communications go altogether. Part of the stated purpose of even the early access is to get player feedback, and unfortunately there's a lot to criticize. But that doesn't mean there isn't still work to be done to build the best possible version of the KSP franchise we all want to see.

I know it's said often that they should just clam up, get to work and come out swinging with the fruits of their labor rather then words. I can only say how I feel, that that strategy has not worked for them so far, and that people can only be asked to wait for so long.

We waited a long time while KSP2 was apparently in pre-dev, perhaps now is time for a different strategy

[Strawberry]

I think kerb is a part of what they meant by revisiting communication strategy but also the switch to videos is almost certainly part of it as well. Mike being out for paternal leave will definitely slow down comms, so I wont expect the small scale comms  (stuff like directly commenting on reddit/forum threads) to significantly improve in the next few months.
 

We know the reentry video took like over a month to make and I assume a lot of the time was just getting the procedure down, once the team gets more used to it theyll probably be able to make videos much more efficently. Im guessing large scale comms (ie videos) will peak in a month and a half or so, but as holidays and paternal leave happens dip to like a 2-3 week cadence.

[Alexoff]

https://twitter.com/KerbalSpaceP/status/1690131686565318663

I wonder if it's a good communication strategy to promise 3 new videos within weeks on August 12 and release only one by September 21? Changing the communication system with users now is like rearranging furniture on the Titanic - if the developers can't show anything except plasma effects in the editor, then no PR department will save the situation. And the PR department is far from the best.

[PDCWolf]

4 hours ago, razark said:

  If only they had clearly said what that meant...

 

But then, if they said it, it wouldn't matter, because anything they say is completely and utterly suspect.

At this point the fact they needed to clarify that "hot"fixes were almost a unique event speaks more about the reality of the game than any snarky commentary I can provide. Nobody has any sort of authority to blame people for not believing them anyways. They dug their credibility's grave all by themselves.

3 hours ago, Stephensan said:

with the update caindence it feels like the summer rush has ended.. anyway on a sadder note why this is happening;

The statement from mike it ain't going get better in the following weeks, infact it will be in general worse due to mike being on leave during the holiday season, more than just the normal holiday season off week(s).

so even if they get a new SMM, we are still down 1-2 social media members.

I have statements about how lack of content, lack of communication, lack of game mechanics, lack of science information, lack of reentry, and the lack of videos are affecting the active playerbase, but its "not correlated" overall.. Its 7 months down the line and struggling to even get reentry out.. user retention is at a real low, and reading that besides the normal holiday season off, mike will also be off is just troublesome in my eyes even if there is a new member incoming..

Bruh. Gotta love how this is what it took for them to mention they're down a person (and they're going to be down another one if they don't get an application).

Congrats to Mike on the twins btw.

2 hours ago, regex said:

Probably just a wild guess but when they do deliver news and the majority of vocal (and repetitive) responses are "it's weak", "it's not enough", "it's not transparent enough", "you're not working hard enough", and so on, regardless of the format or what they try, and when news just generates the same circular [snip] around their corporate structure, what they promised, what happened, why the game isn't where it "should be", well, I know I would be wondering if it was even worth "communicating", because clearly there's no communication with people who don't believe you're acting in good faith and in response, act in bad faith themselves.

If what you need for communication to work is "belief", you're doing it wrong. Everyone in this forum agrees that actions speak louder than words, however they're lacking in actions so far, and their words have been shown to be not trustable so far. What do you expect?

[snip]... repeated time and time again in this forum is people looking away from clearly sourced and demonstrated failures from their part to back their own words with actions. That and blaming the community.

2 hours ago, Stoup said:

I know it's said often that they should just clam up, get to work and come out swinging with the fruits of their labor rather then words. I can only say how I feel, that that strategy has not worked for them so far, and that people can only be asked to wait for so long.

We waited a long time while KSP2 was apparently in pre-dev, perhaps now is time for a different strategy

It's been 7 months, the last almost 2 of which in almost complete silence bar the K.E.R.B, which is a single paragraph. Nothing to show for it other than yet another promise statement that 0.1.5 brings new features we should be excited for.

We in this forum and those on discord might be the most hardcore fans of the franchise, still in waiting. In real life, outside the cave, people moved on, the time has already passed.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Vanamonde

[Strawberry]

7 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

At this point the fact they needed to clarify that "hot"fixes were almost a unique event speaks more about the reality of the game than any snarky commentary I can provide. Nobody has any sort of authority to blame people for not believing them anyways. They dug their credibility's grave all by themselves.

I mean, tbh I dont think most people were expecting any additional hotfixes for 1.3. I thought it was pretty clear to everyone involved that those hotfixes were just for regressions/bugs that barely avoided getting into the update. Like the team has stated many times that theyre generally reluctant for hotfixes

Edited September 21, 2023 by Strawberry

[razark]

5 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

At this point the fact they needed to clarify that "hot"fixes were almost a unique event speaks more about the reality of the game than any snarky commentary I can provide. Nobody has any sort of authority to blame people for not believing them anyways. They dug their credibility's grave all by themselves.

You're unhappy that they said they didn't expect to do more than two hotfixes, and then did two hotfixes.

Because their communications are so bad that you can't believe them when they say they're doing a limited number of things.  If they had accidentally messed up and released three, we'd be reading complaints that they lied about it, anyway.

 

What's the point in complaining that they're not communicating properly, when what they communicate is all assumed to be lies (whether from incompetence,  malice, or whatever) in the first place?

[PDCWolf]

17 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

I mean, tbh I dont think most people were expecting any additional hotfixes for 1.3. I thought it was pretty clear to everyone involved that those hotfixes were just for regressions/bugs that barely avoided getting into the update.

Clearly the conciliation of the player expectations [1][2][3][4][5] (they themselves built) vs the reality the studio lives in has always been a problem. We also get into the conundrum of whether expecting more fixes or not is a response to the team's previous performance, or goodwill from the community.

12 minutes ago, razark said:

You're unhappy that they said they didn't expect to do more than two hotfixes, and then did two hotfixes.

Because their communications are so bad that you can't believe them when they say they're doing a limited number of things.  If they had accidentally messed up and released three, we'd be reading complaints that they lied about it, anyway.

 

What's the point in complaining that they're not communicating properly, when what they communicate is all assumed to be lies (whether from incompetence,  malice, or whatever) in the first place?

I can't make this any more simple

1. You say thing.
2. You do thing you said on 1.
3. Trust is built.

Right now this post sounds like you're asking the community to skip 2, or to skip direct to 3. Whatever they say will always be doubted until they manage to actually build a track record of following through on what they say. However, it also becomes a problem when their strategy turns to "not say anything and do", as that requires faith, and that's much better to gain when you didn't destroy trust in the first place, which is their current track record.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Strawberry]

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

Clearly the conciliation of the player expectations [1][2][3][4][5]

Most of these are just asking for hotfixes in general, not neccisarily for 1.3, and then just to make sure the community knew that was all the hotfixes for 1.3, they went ahead and clarified. Like, I dont think the communication was bad here, it was pretty implicit that this was it for 1.3, and then just to make sure they made it explicit.
 

Its hard to take your complaints about communication seriously when most of them is just ignoring what is said and just hyperfocusing on one phrase completely stripped of context, like tell me again about how nate simpson said “wobble is good” and just convinently ignore the “can” slapped in the middle of the actual quote

[razark]

8 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I can't make this any more simple

1. You say thing.
2. You do thing you said on 1.
3. Trust is built.

They did 1, saying they were expecting to release 2 hotfixes.  (You know, setting customer expectations.)

The did 2, releasing two hotfixes.

As for 3, they get complaints they did exactly what they said they were going to do.

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[regex]

2 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Everyone in this forum agrees that actions speak louder than words, however they're lacking in actions so far

They've been steadily releasing updates to address high-profile bugs and outlining work on those as work progresses, plus showing progress on science. If they pull a huge crunch drive to please people that think they're not working hard enough they burn out their developers, if they don't burn out their developers they're not showing that actions speak louder than words. They can't win, no matter what they do. And so, instead, we get these [snip], circular arguments about how they should have done "X", promised "Y", or talked about "Z" five loveing years ago when the state of the game right now is what it is, and that isn't going to change until development progresses further, which is in progress.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Vanamonde