Colonies being Progressively available in Tier 3-4

[AzuryxxVORTEX]

What's this rambling about?
Having Colonies locked behind Tier 4 seems like it isn't the right way KSP2 should be played. It would feel too step-by-step I feel.
So, introducing it as early as Tier 3 will make the game progression smoother for the colonies, could even put it in Heavy Orbital Operations?

And this would probably mean low tech colony parts...

And why's that?
Colonies are highly anticipated and would change so much to the way we play the game, launching rockets, storing resources, building complex nice looking outposts, this is what would change the gameplay in an interesting way. In KSP1, the way you build stations was nice, but with the addition of colonies, it could be made much easier and user-friendly. And would also make the features get shown to the player much more smoothly, by introducing the concept when it would start to become useful (Like in the quest to go to Jool, you'd build a Duna outpost to make a relay to this planet).

An example perhaps.
In Tier 3, I'd go on to make a small Duna orbital outpost to coordinate operations to go to Jool, perhaps even launching from there if I could, though this seems rather too advanced for T3... But then, as I progress through the tech tree,  I'd have more complex and bigger colony parts to use and expand this Dunian outpost.
Like how in the real world cities came from  small traveller encampments from the late 1800s and turned into huge cities in the current day...

Closing thoughts...
I think that colony parts could aid greatly in the exploration of the Kerbol system after T3, as it would serve as homes for science and resources.  They'd be the backbone of the Program by aiding crafts in their missions, and providing a command center on the area. Of course, vessels would need to launch a sort of Colony core of some kind...

Hopefully the idea is clear, and I hope we would all be able to experience the benefits of colonies even in early game-
Limited, but helpful, and expandable in the long run!-

Edited November 30, 2023 by AzuryxxVORTEX
Overhauled the suggestion to be more clear, taking in account criticism.

[Bej Kerman]

I have no clue what this is on about. What does a tier mean in this context? Do you mean the tiers in the R&D building? Cause I don't remember anything from For Science pertaining to colonies.

[Kerbart]

8 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I have no clue what this is on about. What does a tier mean in this context? Do you mean the tiers in the R&D building? Cause I don't remember anything from For Science pertaining to colonies.

Watch the video. They're referring to the "tabs" in the tech tree. The higher tiers have plenty of open spaces because those are reserved for colony tech once it is available.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Kerbart

[AzuryxxVORTEX]

This is it, sorry for the bad quality, but basically, the R&D building will have tiers of different tech levels. Ranging from beginner, to nuclear engines.

What I wanted to say would be that low tech colony parts would be available as soon as the low-mid tech tiers, allowing to build rudimentary space colonies to use and maybe expand later.
This would make it so that you use colonies all the way, and not just after you got the top tier...
Screenshot showing the R&D interface, looking in tier 1

Edited November 30, 2023 by AzuryxxVORTEX
Replaced image with a better one...

[Kerbart]

3 hours ago, AzuryxxVORTEX said:

What's this rambling about?
Having Colonies locked behind Tier 4 seems like it isn't the right way KSP2 should be played. It would feel too step-by-step I feel.
So, introducing it early as in Tier 2 will make the game progression smoother for the colonies. Maybe this would mean lower tech colony parts?

Tier 2 is visiting Mun and Minmus. We didn't set foot on the Moon by building a self-sustaining colony there; we sent a skimpy LM on an equally sketchy Apollo mission. I see absolutely no reason to have colony tech there.

Quote

And why's that?
Colonies are highly anticipated and would change so much to the way we play the game, launching rockets, storing resources, building complex nice looking outposts, this is what would change the gameplay in an interesting way. In KSP1, the way you build stations was nice, but with the addition of colonies, it could be made much easier and user-friendly. And would also make the features get shown to the player much more smoothly, by showing them the concept midway through their beginning phase.

It's a feature we know nothing about so it's hard to say how much it will change the way the game is played and even then that doesn't necessitate it being introduced right after the player learned how to orbit Kerbin.

Keep in mind that an important part of the tech tree (as stated in the interview) is to work as a not–so–obvious tutorial and gradually feeding new parts to new players. Remember if you give everything priority, nothing has priority. There are more important concepts to master first. Docking, interplanetary transfers, re-entry

 

Quote

What would you do?
Now, what I wish from this is simple colony parts in, let's say, Tier 2, to make a Mun Gateway Station, or a small Duna outpost to launch small rockets from. Then, as we progress through the tech tree, have more complex and bigger colony parts to expand our existing ones maybe.

I know that "realism for the sake of realism" is a bad argument for the design of a game, but that's not how space exploration works.  Also, this is all tech we don't have yet. Those gateway stations can be made of parts that we currently have and are without a doubt available in the lower tiers.

Quote

Like how in the real world a simple outpost from the 1700s turned into a huge metropolis by the 2000s.

THREE HUNDRED years later, not exactly an argument to put that in Tier 2.

Closing thoughts...
It feels to me that you're very excited about colony parts and want to get your hands on them as quickly as possible. And that's ok. We have sandbox mode for that. But from what I've seen the decision to put colony tech in Tier 3 and Tier 4 is very much driven by the desire to guide the player along a path of progress in something called progression mode. There seems to be a very good reason for doingit the way they did it.

[Royalswissarmyknife]

1 minute ago, Kerbart said:

Tier 2 is visiting Mun and Minmus.

Tier 2 is the start of Duna exploration

Tier 1 is visiting Mun and Minmus.

 

[Bej Kerman]

33 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Watch the video. They're referring to the "tabs" in the tech tree. The higher tiers have plenty of open spaces because those are reserved for colony tech once it is available.

Okay. I think I was more confused by the assertion that colonies will definitely be at tier 4 as if we already know they're not going to be much further down the tree.

[AzuryxxVORTEX]

Hmm, yeah you have some really solid arguments that shed light on the matter
You're right on Tier 2 being too early yes, wasn't really taking the tiers too seriously, but for the most part, I would absolutely agree that I'm excited about those colonies, and would prefer them to arrive at the earliest realistically possible, maybe

Quote

Tier 2 is visiting Mun and Minmus. We didn't set foot on the Moon by building a self-sustaining colony there; we sent a skimpy LM on an equally sketchy Apollo mission. I see absolutely no reason to have colony tech there.

Certainly not during the Mun phase though you're right on that- I didn't realize that Duna was at the end, and that's quite the mistake, ouch.
But when we get to Duna, in Tier 3 I suppose, maybe we could build a low tech station with the level being in the ISS scale or less, like how we have here currently-

Below, I see "Heavy Orbital Operations" as a node, I'm totally clueless about what that does, but I would pray for it to be an OAB-

 

Quote

 

It's a feature we know nothing about so it's hard to say how much it will change the way the game is played and even then that doesn't necessitate it being introduced right after the player learned how to orbit Kerbin.

Keep in mind that an important part of the tech tree (as stated in the interview) is to work as a not–so–obvious tutorial and gradually feeding new parts to new players. Remember if you give everything priority, nothing has priority. There are more important concepts to master first. Docking, interplanetary transfers, re-entry

 

Continuing on this, yes, some things are LARGELY more important than colonies. Especially after orbit, I was actually thinking more about after the player left Kerbin, though I do lack communication skills really-

But absolutely, introducing colonies too fast is a terrible idea. But I will say, I'd probably want to have it between Duna and Jool-

Quote

Those gateway stations can be made of parts that we currently have and are without a doubt available in the lower tiers.

Whilst that is certainly true without a doubt, I am obviously biased towards colony style building rather than docking things.. Personal point of view though, and I'm no game designer, sadly-
 

Quote

THREE HUNDRED years later, not exactly an argument to put that in Tier 2.

Bad comparison, my bad, more like, 1980s to 2020s in terms of the space industry then?
I was more referring to cities and not space, bit of a stretch I'll admit- But colonies are sorta cities, start small, then get bigger..

-

So yes, I am biased, and absolutely hyped for colonies. To summarize my rambling, it was more about fearing the colonies are left unused in their astounding potential during most of the game- Though not having them before Duna is absolutely understandable, and I'd probably put it around here. 
I'm sure Tom knows what he's doing, and seeing by the current stuff, it's definitely true. I trust they will do it right, I'll just be expressing concerns from what I hear-

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, AzuryxxVORTEX said:

To summarize my rambling, it was more about fearing the colonies are left unused in their astounding potential during most of the game

To address your fear, no, I don't believe the first 5 or even 10 tiers will represent most of the game. 

[AzuryxxVORTEX]

 

Quote

 

Tier 2 is the start of Duna exploration

Tier 1 is visiting Mun and Minmus.

 

No he's right, look-

In Tier 2, Minmus and the Mun are on the left, where you just came from. And now, Duna is on the right, meaning that's your final goal for this tier.

It makes total sense;
Tier 1: From Kerbin to the Mun
Tier 2: From the Mun to Duna
Tier 3: From Duna to Jool
Tier 4: From Jool to Eeloo

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

To address your fear, no, I don't believe the first 5 or even 10 tiers will represent most of the game. 

Surely right, but if I had access to colony building whilst going from Duna to Jool, I'll absolutely take it-
Like we've seen in the trailer, Duna has a large mothership, and Jool has a whole fuel station with an interstellar ship construction site..

Edited November 30, 2023 by AzuryxxVORTEX

[Bej Kerman]

17 minutes ago, AzuryxxVORTEX said:

18 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

To address your fear, no, I don't believe the first 5 or even 10 tiers will represent most of the game. 

Surely right, but if I had access to colony building whilst going from Duna to Jool, I'll absolutely take it-
Like we've seen in the trailer, Duna has a large mothership, and Jool has a whole fuel station with an interstellar ship construction site..

You'll have to send probes, landers, expeditions, etc. first

[AzuryxxVORTEX]

Edited the topic a large bit, made things more clear, sorta. Not perfect, but it's a step forward.

Quote

You'll have to send probes, landers, expeditions, etc. first 

Oh yes absolutely. Smaller crafts in recon to later set up camp is the way to go.
Once tech level is sufficient...

Edited November 30, 2023 by AzuryxxVORTEX

[Kerbart]

4 hours ago, AzuryxxVORTEX said:

So yes, I am biased, and absolutely hyped for colonies. To summarize my rambling, it was more about fearing the colonies are left unused in their astounding potential during most of the game- Though not having them before Duna is absolutely understandable, and I'd probably put it around here. 

I'm sure Tom knows what he's doing, and seeing by the current stuff, it's definitely true. I trust they will do it right, I'll just be expressing concerns from what I hear-

It's still a positive exchange of ideas. But getting the fire is the end of desire; I think it's much more fun to get that carrot finally late in tier 3 than to get it  early in tier 2. You'll have something to work towards to for a longer amount of game time. If Tier 2 ends with Duna landings then it makes sense to have at least some primitive shelter being made available, given that the average Duna expedition will likely spend months on the surface before a return transfer window is available. But it would just be that, a primitive shelter for survival. And then during tier 3, more functionality can be added.

[Superfluous J]

If colonies are at the end of the tech tree, maybe that'll finally disconnect the concept of "complete the tech tree" from the concept of "complete the game" and I'll finally use some of the stuff in the final tech nodes.

[Astroneer08]

Also, in the video Nate/Tom says that the cost for research is compounding, and that it gets very expensive very quickly, so colonies to bring in passive science would super helpful.

[Cytauri]

It would be cool to maybe have a rudimentary 'lake cabin' - like VAB, which is a small area where you can only build spacecrafts up to 15 or less parts. This part could appear in tier 3, when you have the hang of interplanetary travel. 

It could come with a tiny launchpad. 

[Lowi_Sace]

Colonies will probably also have a tech tree progression like other parts. So starting with simple colony/station pats you land manually and progressing to VAB building(s), feul producing buildings and the ability to build stuff on location. A lot is still unknown about how it will work exactly. So we have to wait (hopefully not as longs as for science), but this will probably set the game apart from (modded) KSP1

[AzuryxxVORTEX]

Quote

Colonies will probably also have a tech tree progression like other parts. So starting with simple colony/station pats you land manually and progressing to VAB building(s), feul producing buildings and the ability to build stuff on location. A lot is still unknown about how it will work exactly. So we have to wait (hopefully not as longs as for science), but this will probably set the game apart from (modded) KSP1

Yes yes, I hope we get to see small colony features before Tier 5 though

And for the wait, well, they've said it'll take significantly less time.

Edited December 1, 2023 by AzuryxxVORTEX

[Strawberry]

This is from like, old info that i cant trace down besides the fact it was in the pre ea ksp2 knowledge repository (probably some obscure interview with less then two thousand views), but apparently colonies will 1. Need to be started by delivering colony “seeds” to a location and 2. Early on be inflatable based things. I think introducing the small inflatables by late tier 3 and by tier 4 the bigger suff would be fitting

[Astro648]

@StrawberryI remember seeing that too

[AzuryxxVORTEX]

1 hour ago, Strawberry said:

This is from like, old info that I cant trace down besides the fact it was in the pre early access ksp2 knowledge repository (probably some obscure interview with less then two thousand views), but apparently colonies will 1. Need to be started by delivering colony “seeds” to a location and 2. Early on be inflatable based things. I think introducing the small inflatables by late tier 3 and by tier 4 the bigger stuff would be fitting

Absolutely! Not too far, not too close. All sounds very reasonable.

[Periple]

“Colonies” can include a lot of stuff! I think the very basics might be in tier 3, like what you need for a small refueling station or mining base. But construction belongs in tier 4!

[Barrackar]

It really depends what you mean by "colonies" content. For example, the automated resource routes would likely be available as soon as you unlock the most basic docking port. Drilling and ISRU resource gathering is probably later. Last, construction and VAB/orbital construction vehicle launch capability is probably last.  Each category comes with different parts, requirements, and capabilities. Similarly, the "colonies" update part of the roadmap isn't going to be just one thing.

Not long now until the  December19th and we see a lot more information about everything else in the tech tree so far.

[kdaviper]

You can always make a ksp1 style outpost until you unlock the real stuff

 

[Lowi_Sace]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:17 AM, Barrackar said:

It really depends what you mean by "colonies" content. For example, the automated resource routes would likely be available as soon as you unlock the most basic docking port. Drilling and ISRU resource gathering is probably later. Last, construction and VAB/orbital construction vehicle launch capability is probably last.  Each category comes with different parts, requirements, and capabilities. Similarly, the "colonies" update part of the roadmap isn't going to be just one thing.

Resource gathering and transport routes will come way later. Curios how colonies work without resource gathering. Hope that we could at least make some fuel on location. Colonies will probably be a very big update. The devs shown a lot of parts will be added to the game for building big orbital and ground based colonies