The Comprehensive Colony Communications Archive

[herbal space program]

48 minutes ago, NH4Cl Enthusiast said:

Comparatively it's probably more prone to bugs than the resource collection and on the other hand if you'd just add resources now, the only usable one would be fuel and even that would still need the colony parts to process.

I guess I understand the bugs argument, but the rest of what you said I'm not so sure about.  Just being able to make hydrogen fuel and oxidizer in-situ by utilizing water (the obvious first resource) would actually be pretty cool! Hydrogen is obviously a fuel in itself, and oxidizer is so much heavier than methane per impulse generated that being able to just take just the methane with you and generate the oxidizer in situ would give new life to methalox  as a propellant later in the game. And wouldn't it be nifty if your orbital survey experiments earlier in the game actually yielded a map that shows water deposits?  As to all that requiring colony parts, I don't really see it that way.  All you'd really need is a resource scanner part, a water extraction part, a water tank, and a hydrolyzer part, which are things that (in principle) already existed in KSP1.  And of course once there is some kind of colony habitation module, oxygen would be its most obvious continual need if there's going to be anything like life support in the game, and again you get that from water. Anyway, I'm not complaining about it, but it does seem to me that you could get a whole lot of gameplay mileage relative to where we are now just by adding water to the game with a handful of parts.

14 minutes ago, TFA3393 said:

You are correct that way would be more fun for us. But they need us to find and report all the bugs with colonies before they can introduce the complex resource system.

A fair point, but apropos of that I feel compelled to point out that keeping us interested in finding and reporting those bugs requires that the game be fun to play, and what I outlined above seems like a pretty easy-to-implement way to maximize that element. But we'll see I guess.

Edited April 12 by herbal space program

[The Space Peacock]

50 minutes ago, Dakota said:

Nice work on this

thanks!

50 minutes ago, Dakota said:

  Hide contents

this is not confirmation or denial of any speculation in this thread, just acknowledgement of the effort!

speculation? me? i would never!

[The Space Peacock]

1 hour ago, herbal space program said:

Thank you for that @The Space Peacock! There's a great deal of food for thought here.  One thing that does kind of have me scratching my helmet over all this is why they're choosing to implement colonies before they put any kind of resource system in place.

You're welcome! 

As for the decision to put Colonies ahead of Resources; i think the main reason is that Resources need Colonies, but Colonies dont necessarily need Resources (initially). They have the tech tree to temporarily gate colonies with science instead of resources which ensures atleast some sort of progression, and should still be fun enough for players to actually enjoy while also enabling a bunch of cool stuff like orbital shipyards. If they did  the opposite and released resources before colonies, there wouln't be much to actually do with them. No mining colonies to mine them, no factories to refine them, no orbital shipyards to put them to good use and no advanced Interstellar engines to power with them (which may be why Interstellar comes before Resources? that's really the only good reason for that i can think of, haha). So what that would essentially boil down to is the devs spending months getting the resource system to work, then not having anything in the game to do with it beyond basic Vessel ISRU.
It'll  be a beautiful day for KSP fans when they finally meet eachother, tho!

[moeggz]

This is post of the year and it’s April. Seriously this took a lot of work, and was done for the love of KSP for free and is so helpful for the entire community. 
 

I look forward to digging into it more tonight, but my quick skim showed where it was said that “launching rockets will not be free” this is the part that is still pretty vague to me, and seems that it will be vague for a long while yet until the resources update. 

And the comment that resource delivery routes will explicitly be based on duration makes me curious to how the devs will incentivize against wonton time warp, if such an incentive is even something they want to give. I just have a really hard time seeing how that doesn’t just leave the player with an “infinite resource” button just always in the game.

 

For a player who really wants an in game reason to build efficient rockets, it just means it will probably be a while before the game will be fun to play for fun’s sake. But if communication starts picking up I’ll gladly play for the fun of thinking about the game and for feedback. 
 

Having this resource together now, going through all of the posts in one spot it does seem that some of my prior questions have been addressed either fully or partially, so thank you again. This is very helpful to get in mind all the communication up to this point. 

Edited April 12 by moeggz

[herbal space program]

1 hour ago, The Space Peacock said:

...  reason is that Resources need Colonies, but Colonies dont necessarily need Resources (initially)... So what that would essentially boil down to is the devs spending months getting the resource system to work, then not having anything in the game to do with it beyond basic Vessel ISRU.

If they have decided that any capability for resource extraction and ISRU will require a full-on colony/factory setup rather than just the the handful of parts used for that purpose in KSP1, then I agree there is no point to implementing any resource extraction before they have the colony parts. But OTOH building factories and resource extraction systems without any actual resources to use them on also seems kind of pointless to me in terms of gameplay, and just setting up Kerbal Kamps that sit around requiring maintenance and doing nothing else doesn't really sound very fun to me either. So I suppose the reality in my mind is more like resources and colonies are kind of intimately tied together, rather than one requiring full implementation before the other makes sense, and thus the best path for gameplay might actually be to incrementally build both systems together rather than categorically placing one before the other. I have no idea if that's a nonstarter for development reasons, but I can sure think of a snappy name for the first update if that what they were to do -- "Kerbal Kolonies: Just Add Water! "

...And finally, after reading through the more recent interview segments more closely, I'm thinking that there will actually be some kind of basic, almost certainly water-based ISRU system coming along with the first tranche of colony parts, while any more complex and diverse utilization of resources is still on the back burner. Time will tell!

Edited April 12 by herbal space program

[NexusHelium]

This is impressive for someone who's secretly an AI model named Greg 

[The Space Peacock]

1 hour ago, moeggz said:

This is post of the year and it’s April. Seriously this took a lot of work, and was done for the love of KSP for free and is so helpful for the entire community. 

Ah man, gonna make me blush. Thanks!

1 hour ago, moeggz said:

Having this resource together now, going through all of the posts in one spot it does seem that some of my prior questions have been addressed either fully or partially, so thank you again. This is very helpful to get in mind all the communication up to this point. 

glad to hear that, that's exactly what i was aiming for when making this  

1 hour ago, herbal space program said:

So I suppose the reality in my mind is more like resources and colonies are kind of intimately tied together, rather than one requiring full implementation before the other makes sense, and thus the best path for gameplay might actually be to incrementally build both systems together rather than categorically placing one before the other.

I think you hit the nail right on the head with this. They both shine brightest when they're combined. I personally dont think there's too much of an issue with putting colonies ahead of resources for the time being, but i understand the sentiment

[Kimera Industries]

I wonder why they keep showing these massive, city-like colonies. I'm excited to start from a really small habitat and build from there. It sounds fun.

[Casellina X]

2 hours ago, herbal space program said:

So I suppose the reality in my mind is more like resources and colonies are kind of intimately tied together, rather than one requiring full implementation before the other makes sense, and thus the best path for gameplay might actually be to incrementally build both systems together rather than categorically placing one before the other.

Bearing in mind I've been skimming between about 6 hours of meetings today; I feel like colonies don't need resource extraction, but they both give each other an enhanced purpose. The way I see it, resources in a basic form has been covered by KSP 1 - just go drill somewhere and come back with something. But it was just for the sake of processing it into fuel. For those of us who don't touch mods colonies is entirely new. So the novelty (at least for me) will be dropping colonies all over the place, providing new launch locations. You all have seen me post in the "What did you do today" thread, anything larger than a command pod I struggle to get into a good orbit, let alone beyond the Kerbin SOI. So placing a colony on the Mun or Minmus will drastically make things easier to traverse the system. I wouldn't want to have to wait until resources are implemented before getting to experience colonies. But I think once colonies and resources are implemented and integrated into exploration mode, there's going to be some very compelling gameplay to come out of it.

As far as development goes, it probable makes more sense to build out colonies and their capabilities because resources should be a natural extension of that. Ploppable parts, linking extractors to storage, configuring routes to and from locations.

[Genekermanisamoneylaundere]

14 hours ago, The Space Peacock said:

There will be between 200 to 300 colony parts

Promising!

[Flush Foot]

15 hours ago, The Space Peacock said:

‘dozens’ of new colony parts

“Counterpoint” (from a more recent interview)

But I also prefer the 200-300 estimate, @Genekermanisamoneylaundere

[MARL_Mk1]

Thanks for this. This thread is incredibly valuable and useful for two main reasons:

1) Makes me realize how big the Colonies update will be if they actually release it in it's full potential, and not as a Colonies: Part 1 (I still have nightmares with Minecraft's Caves and Cliffs: Part 1) 

2) It gives players the ability to reminisce about what we were told in an organized archive manner

Again, thanks for the effort! Can't wait to compare info using it once Colonies are out. If it's as big of an update as we've been told during the past couple of years, it will probably come out sometime between June and August. Whenever that happens, I just hope it is good and the game is performant enough for it.
 

[The Space Peacock]

4 minutes ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

Thanks for this. This thread is incredibly valuable and useful for two main reasons:

1) Makes me realize how big the Colonies update will be if they actually release it in it's full potential, and not as a Colonies: Part 1 (I still have nightmares with Minecraft's Caves and Cliffs: Part 1) 

you're welcome!

and it is important to note here that colonies will not release at their full potential: imo it will reach that only with the Exploration milestone. resource production and delivery routes will elevate them to  a whole other level. But as for colonies by themselves, i sure hope they succeed in making everything in this post a reality when the Colonies milestone drops!  

[Jaypeg]

15 hours ago, klipantakmon said:

Thing is, with the fiasco that we have on our hands and the countless lies that have been told, one would have to be a fool to believe everything that was said in the interviews, q&a etc.

everything from 0.1 to now has been correct, they didnt lie about science update.

5 hours ago, Kimera Industries said:

I wonder why they keep showing these massive, city-like colonies. I'm excited to start from a really small habitat and build from there. It sounds fun.

seems like itll be "levels" to colonies

 

[stephensmat]

It suggests the progression continues with the new Releases.

Rockets gets you orbit. Orbit gets you interplanetary. Interplanetary gives you landings on other planets. Landings give you Colonies. Colonies get you Resources from Multiple Worlds. Resources gets you an Interstellar Craft. You fly to a new system and land, you return to Point A and start building again.

And Science Points is the currency that unlocks each step on that progression.

And if Colonies are saved for Tier 4, then it means they're likely following the 'Game' Progression of: "Do it for the first time, which is hard. Do it three times to get good at it. Then you Unlock something that makes it so easy you only need to worry about the next level." A 'fly and forget' model that will make automated flights easier to live with in 0.4.

This  also gives me hope about refuelling, even in a small colony.

[Flush Foot]

6 minutes ago, stephensmat said:

Colonies get you Resources from Multiple Worlds. Resources gets you an Interstellar Craft

Except from the roadmap, you’re going from current version to v0.3 to v0.5 to v0.4 (not that I disagree with your progression)

 

7 minutes ago, stephensmat said:

automated flights easier to live with in 0.4

Also not in v0.4 but rather v0.5 (AFAIK)

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

5 hours ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

Thanks for this. This thread is incredibly valuable and useful for two main reasons:

1) Makes me realize how big the Colonies update will be if they actually release it in it's full potential, and not as a Colonies: Part 1 (I still have nightmares with Minecraft's Caves and Cliffs: Part 1) 

2) It gives players the ability to reminisce about what we were told in an organized archive manner

Again, thanks for the effort! Can't wait to compare info using it once Colonies are out. If it's as big of an update as we've been told during the past couple of years, it will probably come out sometime between June and August. Whenever that happens, I just hope it is good and the game is performant enough for it.
 

Speaking about the size of Colonies, whether it’s with dozens of parts or hundreds, does anyone with better memory than me remember how the science updated turned out to be vs what was said?

All I remember is it was supposed to be an evolution from KSP1 and different, but then it got here and was more familiar than not. 
Which is fine because it’s an EA, but I for one expected the science update will get updates soon after that to add the new stuff, which it didn’t. 
I do hope Colonies lives up to  the roundup of  statements in the original post, or at least gets updated to get there after initial launch, you know, as an EA typically does. 

[Urus28]

Thank you for this compilation of information over the years =)

If I understand correctly, the mail challenge with colonies will be heat management... I hope they will come with something more elaborate than "build bigger radiators !"

[The Space Peacock]

18 hours ago, Urus28 said:

Thank you for this compilation of information over the years =)

If I understand correctly, the mail challenge with colonies will be heat management... I hope they will come with something more elaborate than "build bigger radiators !"

yw!

from what Nertea said in his Devblog on Thermals, i think it's safe to say we'll see some pretty elaborate heat managment mechanics at some point. Remains to be seen how much of that will be in Colonies vs later Milestones tho. 
Also, i just found another old interview that heavily implies Population will be an important challenge too- it even mentions Food! (added that to the post  )

[Heretic391]

Honestly one of the best posts I've seen since release.  Fantastic job!

I wonder how much of these features won't make it in the final game . I know that sometimes things don’t always turn out as expected once they’re implemented

Edited April 14 by Heretic391

[steveman0]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:55 PM, herbal space program said:

If they have decided that any capability for resource extraction and ISRU will require a full-on colony/factory setup rather than just the the handful of parts used for that purpose in KSP1, then I agree there is no point to implementing any resource extraction before they have the colony parts. But OTOH building factories and resource extraction systems without any actual resources to use them on also seems kind of pointless to me in terms of gameplay

I don't see these as being incompatible. Just because we don't have resources yet doesn't mean a colony fuel factory can't produce fuel from EC alone when built in the correct location. They could implement the full requirements for colony construction, power generation, thermal management, and the installation of end fuel production facilities with the caveat that you can only produce the fuel(s) available to your local body with the precursor resource assumed available in an unlimited quantity if only at a limited rate.

The resource update then expands on the system only to the extent that fuel production now requires the precursor resource supplied as an input from extraction operations but with the benefit now that these don't need to be colocated. The colonies as a system need to change very little for this integration.

This all would have notable gameplay impact as the future updates may enable centralized colonies that process many materials supplied through automated deliveries from small branch extraction colonies. The first implementation may require each to be fully developed for production. This might be fine since it isn't clear if there are notable tangible benefits from consolidating production at a single colony or if it would be better to produce on site at the extraction colony anyway and only ship the fuel product to a central staging colony for say interstellar journeys.

Edited April 15 by steveman0
Typos

[Flush Foot]

@steveman0 that more-or-less aligns with ideas I've been throwing around in other colonies-related threads (though I was mostly focusing on was to 'gate' base-expansion)...

EC and waste-heat (that has to be managed) to produce 'all the things' in the interim

[Presto200]

2 minutes ago, steveman0 said:

I don't see these as being incompatible. Just because we don't have resources yet doesn't mean a colony fuel factory can't produce fuel from EC alone when built in the correct location. They could implement the full requirements for colony construction, power generation, thermal management, and the installation of end fuel production facilities with the caveat that you can only produce the fuel(s) available to your local body with the precursor resource assumed available in an unlimited quantity if only at a limited rate.

The resource update then expands on the system only to the extent that fuel production now requires the precursor resource supplied as an input from extraction operations but with the benefit now that these don't need to be colocated. The colonies as a system need to change very little for this integration.

This all would have notable gameplay impact as the future updates may enable centralized colonies that process many materials supplied through automated deliveries from small branch extraction colonies. The first implementation may require each to be fully developed for production. This might be fine since it isn't clear if there are notable tangible benefits from consolidating production at a single colony of if it would be better to produce on site at the extractiom colony anyway and only ship the fuel product to a central staging colony for say interstellar journeys.

 

[Scarecrow71]

15 minutes ago, steveman0 said:

I don't see these as being incompatible. Just because we don't have resources yet doesn't mean a colony fuel factory can't produce fuel from EC alone when built in the correct location. They could implement the full requirements for colony construction, power generation, thermal management, and the installation of end fuel production facilities with the caveat that you can only produce the fuel(s) available to your local body with the precursor resource assumed available in an unlimited quantity if only at a limited rate.

The resource update then expands on the system only to the extent that fuel production now requires the precursor resource supplied as an input from extraction operations but with the benefit now that these don't need to be colocated. The colonies as a system need to change very little for this integration.

This all would have notable gameplay impact as the future updates may enable centralized colonies that process many materials supplied through automated deliveries from small branch extraction colonies. The first implementation may require each to be fully developed for production. This might be fine since it isn't clear if there are notable tangible benefits from consolidating production at a single colony or if it would be better to produce on site at the extraction colony anyway and only ship the fuel product to a central staging colony for say interstellar journeys.

Agreed.  In a meta-sense, ISRU and fuel production is simply taking one energy type and converting it to another.  In game terms, you take EC and simply change its variable type to methane, or monoprop, or what-have-you.  At least in the interim, before full resources are implemented, anyhow.  It's simply an abstraction of what will eventually come into the game where you will need a specific resource to be converted.

To take this a step further, who says it has to only be EC that's converted?  We already have multiple types of fuel in the game, right?  Methalox, pure methane, monopropellant, hydrogen.  Who is to say that we won't be able to convert one to another?

[Flush Foot]

10 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

To take this a step further, who says it has to only be EC that's converted?  We already have multiple types of fuel in the game, right?  Methalox, pure methane, monopropellant, hydrogen.  Who is to say that we won't be able to convert one to another?

Unless there is a way to convert back and forth (with EC, of course) in a way that eventually produces a net-gain of products, I would not want to be locked into fuel-based conversions  before we get true resources.

I would be open to using "onboard" fuels to allow for a faster / "cheaper" [on EC] production of another fuel-type than when producing them "out of pure energy".