[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[taniwha]

@Hohmannson I can't rule that out, but that sounds rather unlikely. I can see it happening at certain places (eg, I found a step in the ground colliders on Duna where the visible ground and the collider doesn't match: a drill there that looks like it's penetrating the ground might not).

Anyway, a simple test is to have a kerbal go out and inspect the site: if the kerbal starts walking into the ground near the drills, then that may be the problem. However, that would mean that the collider is sloping down while the visible ground is sloping up (thus my thinking it's unlikely).

[pmoffitt]

1 hour ago, taniwha said:

@Tonka Crash

BTW, love your base. looks awesome (as mentioned to @pmoffitt, the lighting helps no end). Also, I like the mix of support styles, and that tubing... (just overall a very nice base)

First, yes, I was admiring the heck out of that base last night.  I want to be able to build bases like that.  I like how compact things are.

What is the longest distance between anchor points from end to end?  Are you having any issues with things moving or falling apart (Kraken attacks)?

It seems that the people with good overall base designs actually prebuild them prior to putting them into production.  I have been just bootstrapping mine and then adding on what was needed.  Now I am trying to clean up the mess that has created. (You should have seen some of the explosions that blew up the whole base when some part I took off decided it was in the ground when I dropped it or something major fell over.) As of yet, I have not found a good way of creating a cargo rocket that can unload sections of a base and put them in place.  (I keep breaking cranes by disconnecting the cable with tension on it. One would think I would have learned after the first time that happened.)

[taniwha]

9 minutes ago, pmoffitt said:

It seems that the people with good overall base designs actually prebuild them prior to putting them into production

While this is probably the general case, I myself prefer a more ad-hoc approach. However, I do generally start with a reasonable "foundation" and then build off that. You should have seen the fun I had getting the first crane onto my base foundation (several years before the micro-pad came into being). I used the survey system (on a rather steep crater side) to spawn the crane directly over its target docking port and let the crane fall onto it. That took a few goes (getting the -Y bounds stake at the right height and the origin stake directly under the port), but it worked well in the end. In fact, that's the base on the previous page (and the EL manual cover).

15 minutes ago, pmoffitt said:

What is the longest distance between anchor points from end to end?  Are you having any issues with things moving or falling apart (Kraken attacks)?

For my own bases, I think the largest I've gotten so far is about 6-7 Diamond Grid balloon tank lengths from end to end. So far, no trouble (1.9.1, Minmus), unless that old THSS foundation (plastered to the side of the VAB) was bigger, but that was last used in 2017. However, that doesn't count extending my bases by building a second one nearby and connecting them via KAS hoses. Don't remember any trouble with that.

However, weird motions is something I try to keep an eye on. I do get a lot of weird sliding of loose parts (including Kerbals) on Minmus's surface (despite the terrain being nearly dead flag (JNSQ, so the flats aren't quite as flat as stock Minmus)).

[Tonka Crash]

@taniwha  I think the colliders in @SuicidalInsanity's drills are not defined correctly or whatever it is you used to calculate height above the terrain. 

I made a save just before I finalized the build just in case I had problems.  So I went back to the SPH and moved the drilling rig up a little bit replaced it in the save and spawned it again.  First time so the drills were just clear of the ground and a second time where they were clear of the ground by the diameter of the bits on the drill head. Each time it spawned on the runway at the new height, but it always spawns at the same height with 2 of the 3 drills too far into the ground.  So I think when you calculate the height it's using a reference point on the drill that is too high up and won't keep them clear of the ground.  I ran out of time tonight to play with it, but I'm just going to put a I-beam or something at the aft end to force a collider to the min height I need for this to work.

To be clear, I do not think this is a bug with how you calculate height above terrain, but a problem with the mod parts I'm using. 

[Tonka Crash]

@pmoffitt  For bases I don't really expand on existing structures often. Typically I use the flexible corridors in KPBS to connect separate buildings together.  I also use USI Konstruction ports to weld sections together on ground (Docking is a pain on the ground) and in Orbit (a lot).  I haven't quite got the hang of the EL Micropads.  I'm also not poophole enough to lay everything out beforehand so everything is adhoc.  Bases expand organically as I need things or contracts ask for things. I also try to build big with as few parts as possible. This base is the primary resource extraction point for Kerbin's SOI.  It's primary purpose is to support a shipyard in orbit that has begun building components for Minmus.

Below is the base before this latest addon. It's located in the valley between the Twin Craters which was the best compromise for concentrations of Ore and MetalOre in my game that wasn't far off the equator.

1. It started with the resource extraction and drilling platform at the left. It's got a probe core to control it and a Survey Station to allow building onsite with EL. When I unlocked it, I skycraned a smelter onto it.
2. The big USI Kontainer marked ROK (Rocket Parts in my game) was dropped by skycrane early on to support building the additional resource storage attached to the ROK Kontainer.  There is also a KPBS workshop on this building that was flown down around the same time. It's kind of hidden behind the automated Rocket Parts factory from EL. There is a recycler from Keridian Dynamics to the right foreground at the base of the tower next to the green Kontainer with the Recycling logo. Pretty much anything that makes it to here and isn't needed is recycled. 
3. Next the Launchpad in the background was built onsite  It's the only part I worried about orienting.  It's lined up with the approach path from orbit. By this point the base was supporting my station in orbit.
4. The big crewed section was built on site to fulfill several contracts (Science lab, hab space and life support)  I added another workshop.
5. The smallish building in the middle of everything has a reactor to power everything (I was suffering brownout with everything running on fuel cells)  It also has a uranium extractor that chews through Ore like crazy which is why I need the new resource extractor, the original I landed can't keep up with demand.  .

Staff:  10 Engineers, 6 Scientists and a Pilot

 

Here's a closeup of the launchpad with my Ore Hopper reloading for another run to orbit.  You can see a Kerbal running the RTS-1. Simple Logistics is used to transfer resources between the Launchpad and the base and a KAS RTS-1 resource transfer unit to refuel the lander.  Simple Logistics is pretty limited.  It works great for how I use it pulling resources from the base to the pad and pushing USI Supplies, but doesn't work at all for things like calculating EL productivity of a base, so all manned buildings are connected by KPBS flex tubes.

One thing to keep in mind with lights, too many will kill your frame rate.  I hate wandering around in the dark, but I try to be selective about where I put lights.

This is the shipyard in orbit.  Crew capacity is around 80, but I think there are around 35 Kerbals permanent staff: a couple pilots and the rest about 50/50 scientists and engineers.  This was mostly built in orbit with just the first few modules launched from Kerbin.  At this point in my game manned missions are the only thing that routinely launch from KSC.  If I can, I build it in Mun Orbit.

[taniwha]

@Tonka Crash Thanks for the update. I will have to take a look at the model myself when I get some time. Would you mind filing an issue on EL's github (marked investigate) so I don't forget? I"m knee-deep in the code working on a fairly significant update to EL (ひみつ ).

And very nice base and station.

[SuicidalInsanity]

19 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

@taniwha  I think the colliders in @SuicidalInsanity's drills are not defined correctly or whatever it is you used to calculate height above the terrain.

Not surprising, at the time those were made I was more or less needing to reverse-engineer first principles from stock drills on how to make custom ones (convenient and available module documentation? What's that?).
I can poke at them a bit and see what needs to be reconfigured or reexported to fix the issue.

[taniwha]

@SuicidalInsanity note that I was assuming the parts had been modded to use EL's extractor module (due to the message)

I was about to suggest the EL manual for what's needed, but it turns out I haven't documented ELExtractor. Oops.

[Tonka Crash]

@taniwha I managed to get my resource extractor/processor to deploy high enough.  I stuck an I-beam next to the drill that would be buried the deepest.  It hangs a little lower than the drill head.  When it deployed the I-beam made contact with the ground and was "bent" over quite a bit so the the ground still passed through the tubular segment of the drill just below the the gray vent above the drill bits.  But this was higher than before and enough that all drills successfully extract ore.

Final gratuitous shot of the base:

@taniwha  If it helps this is the MM Cache version of the problem drill

Spoiler

	parentUrl = MiningExpansion/Parts/Size3StackDrill/Drill.cfg
	PART
	{
		name = SMX_3mStackDrill
		module = Part
		author = SuicidalInsanity
		mesh = Model.mu
		scale = 1
		rescaleFactor = 1
		node_stack_top = 0.0, 1.146307, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 3
		TechRequired = advOffworldMining
		entryCost = 98000
		cost = 38000
		subcategory = 0
		title = Mining Excavator Size 3m Stack "Lithoquake"
		manufacturer = Coreworks Extractions Consortium
		description = The largest ventral mount heavy mining excavator marketed by the CEC. Like its smaller bretheren, it is designed to extract usable materials from asteriods and planetary regolith. When operated by a skilled engineer, you will be able to operate with better efficiency.  These modules operate best at their ideal operating temperatures, and features auto-shutdown in the event of excessive overheating.  Radiators can be used to help manage excessive heat. <color=#7F7F7F>[SMX_3mStackDrill]</color>
		attachRules = 1,1,1,1,0
		mass = 16
		dragModelType = default
		maximum_drag = 0.2
		minimum_drag = 0.2
		angularDrag = 2
		crashTolerance = 40
		maxTemp = 2000
		bulkheadProfiles = size3
		tags = drill extractor harvest isru mine )mining (ore resource cck-construction
		category = none
		MODEL
		{
			model = MiningExpansion/Parts/Assets/Size3Drill
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleResourceHarvester
			HarvesterType = 0
			Efficiency = 50
			ResourceName = Ore
			ConverterName = Surface Harvester
			StartActionName = Start Surface Harvester
			StopActionName = Stop Surface Harvester
			ToggleActionName = Toggle Surface Harvester
			ImpactTransform = ImpactTransform
			ImpactRange = 5
			AutoShutdown = true
			GeneratesHeat = true
			UseSpecialistBonus = true
			SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2
			SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05
			UseSpecialistHeatBonus = true
			SpecialistHeatFactor = 0.1
			ExperienceEffect = DrillSkill
			EfficiencyBonus = 1
			INPUT_RESOURCE
			{
				ResourceName = ElectricCharge
				Ratio = 4.5
			}
			TemperatureModifier
			{
				key = 0 45000
				key = 250 37500
				key = 500 30000
				key = 750 5000
				key = 1000 0
			}
			ThermalEfficiency
			{
				key = 0 0.1
				key = 250 .5
				key = 500 1
				key = 750 .33
				key = 1000 0
			}
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleAsteroidDrill
			DirectAttach = false
			StartActionName = Start Asteroid Harvester
			StopActionName = Stop Asteroid Harvester
			ToggleActionName = Toggle Asteroid Harvester
			PowerConsumption = 1
			Efficiency = 87.5
			ImpactRange = 5
			ImpactTransform = ImpactTransform
			UseSpecialistBonus = true
			AutoShutdown = true
			GeneratesHeat = true
			UseSpecialistBonus = true
			SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2
			SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05
			UseSpecialistHeatBonus = true
			SpecialistHeatFactor = 0.1
			ExperienceEffect = DrillSkill
			EfficiencyBonus = 1
			TemperatureModifier
			{
				key = 0 45000
				key = 250 37500
				key = 500 30000
				key = 750 5000
				key = 1000 0
			}
			ThermalEfficiency
			{
				key = 0 0.1
				key = 250 .5
				key = 500 1
				key = 750 .1
				key = 1000 0
			}
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleCometDrill
			DirectAttach = false
			StartActionName = Start Comet Harvester
			StopActionName = Stop Comet Harvester
			ToggleActionName = Toggle Comet Harvester
			PowerConsumption = 1
			Efficiency = 87.5
			ImpactRange = 5
			ImpactTransform = ImpactTransform
			UseSpecialistBonus = true
			AutoShutdown = true
			GeneratesHeat = true
			UseSpecialistBonus = true
			SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2
			SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05
			UseSpecialistHeatBonus = true
			SpecialistHeatFactor = 0.1
			ExperienceEffect = DrillSkill
			EfficiencyBonus = 1
			TemperatureModifier
			{
				key = 0 45000
				key = 250 37500
				key = 500 30000
				key = 750 5000
				key = 1000 0
			}
			ThermalEfficiency
			{
				key = 0 0.1
				key = 250 .5
				key = 500 1
				key = 750 .1
				key = 1000 0
			}
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleAnimationGroup
			deployAnimationName = Size3DrillUnpack
			activeAnimationName = Size3DrillRunning
			deployActionName = Deploy <<1>>
			retractActionName = Retract <<1>>
			toggleActionName = Toggle <<1>>
			moduleType = Drill
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleCoreHeat
			CoreTempGoal = 500
			CoreToPartRatio = 0.1
			CoreTempGoalAdjustment = 0
			CoreEnergyMultiplier = 0.1
			HeatRadiantMultiplier = 0.25
			CoolingRadiantMultiplier = 0
			HeatTransferMultiplier = 0
			CoolantTransferMultiplier = 0.01
			radiatorCoolingFactor = 1
			radiatorHeatingFactor = 0.05
			MaxCalculationWarp = 1000
			CoreShutdownTemp = 1000
			MaxCoolant = 600
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleResourceHarvester
			HarvesterType = 0
			Efficiency = 16.6666666666667
			ResourceName = MetalOre
			ConverterName = MetalOre Harvester
			StartActionName = Start MetalOre Extraction
			StopActionName = Stop MetalOre Extraction
			ToggleActionName = Toggle MetalOre Extraction
			ImpactTransform = ImpactTransform
			ImpactRange = 5
			AutoShutdown = true
			GeneratesHeat = true
			UseSpecialistBonus = true
			SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2
			SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05
			UseSpecialistHeatBonus = true
			SpecialistHeatFactor = 0.1
			ExperienceEffect = DrillSkill
			EfficiencyBonus = 1
			INPUT_RESOURCE
			{
				ResourceName = ElectricCharge
				Ratio = 9
			}
			TemperatureModifier
			{
				key = 0 45000
				key = 250 37500
				key = 500 30000
				key = 750 5000
				key = 1000 0
			}
			ThermalEfficiency
			{
				key = 0 0.1
				key = 250 .5
				key = 500 1
				key = 750 .33
				key = 1000 0
			}
		}
	}

 

 

[taniwha]

@Tonka Crash Thanks, I'll look into that later.

In the meantime, I've updated EL's manual to give details about ELExtractor configuration and requirements (section 5.1.4 on page 26 (version as of this posting)@SuicidalInsanity)

Edited September 25, 2020 by taniwha

[taniwha]

@Tonka Crash It seems that part doesn't use EL's module at all, so I'm surprised my advice helped. I guess the stock module has a similar setup, but I haven't looked at it for years (probably since KSP 1.0)

[Souptime]

What are materialkits? in one of the parts descriptions they can be turned into rocketparts, but how?

Also what is the OSE workshop?

[capi3101]

2 hours ago, Souptime said:

What are materialkits? in one of the parts descriptions they can be turned into rocketparts, but how?

Also what is the OSE workshop?

"Material Kits" is the basic resource type required for the OSE Workshop mod (an entirely different mod). That mod allows you to build individual parts remotely, whereas Extraplanetary Launchpad utilizes RocketParts smelted from Metal, itself smelted from Metal Ore (Metallic Ore? - I need to re-RTFM my own self, it seems) to build whole, completed craft at bases other than KSC. To my knowledge there is no direct conversion between the two indicated materials, Material Kits and RocketParts.

 

[Souptime]

Alright thanks!

I wish you could use materialkits and turn them into rocketparts. I brought and entire container of them

[taniwha]

1 hour ago, Souptime said:

I wish you could use materialkits and turn them into rocketparts. I brought and entire container of them

You'd have to do a bit of config editing, but one of the resource conversion modules (EL's, stock, or one from another mod) could be made to do so.

[SuicidalInsanity]

On 9/24/2020 at 7:09 PM, taniwha said:

In the meantime, I've updated EL's manual to give details about ELExtractor configuration and requirements (section 5.1.4 on page 26 (version as of this posting)@SuicidalInsanity)

Thanks. And apologies if my previous comment about documentation was taken as a slight - I was referring to Squad's lack of such, not yours, though my wording was more ambiguous than it could have been.

[Souptime]

I'm not good at config editing, what would I need to do? I wanna use the rocket workshop thing to turn material kits into rocket parts. Either as a different button or under "Start part production"

[Tonka Crash]

3 hours ago, Souptime said:

Alright thanks!

I wish you could use materialkits and turn them into rocketparts. I brought and entire container of them

Material Kits are also produced as part of the recipe chain for USI-MKS that uses Global Construction for building ships. Material Kits in MKS are roughly equivalent to Rocket Parts in EL. If I were to use OSE Workshop in a game with EL, I'd look at switching it over to use Rocket Parts instead of Material Kits instead of converting Material Kits into Rocket Parts. You are pretty much on your own to figure out how to modify your game to work the way you want.  For example I wanted to use the USI Kontainers instead of the EL's hexcans.  So I wrote my own patches to replace the MKS resources with the ones I actually needed for EL. 

Personally I've never seen the point to OSE Workshop if you can build complete ships with EL.  OSE Workshop just builds parts that you still have to assemble. If I need just a couple parts, it's not that difficult for me to go into the VAB stick them in a KIS container, save it and then build that on site. No extra workshop needed, no new resource chain.

[JadeOfMaar]

35 minutes ago, Tonka Crash said:

it's not that difficult for me to go into the VAB stick them in a KIS container, save it and then build that on site. No extra workshop needed, no new resource chain.

I've been there. It gets annoying, actually, when you have to do the roundabout work of going to the VAB, remembering the parts you want, building the dummy craft, and returning to the site to build it. OSE builds the part and stuffs it into the factory's own KIS space. Also, if you wanted to produce a KIS box full of little things, OSE saves you from having to remember (days later) what you stuffed into the KIS box on the last dummy craft. Instead of that, you build a new KIS box and stuff parts into it from the factory's inventory all without having to go to the VAB.

The matter isn't always about what parts you missed when you build a big ship or base section with many parts, but is also about when you're building a small craft or expanding a large one, piece by piece or section by section with plenty KAS involvement. For that kind of thing, switching scenes for every few steps can be too much. That's what OSE's advantage really looks like.

[taniwha]

2 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Thanks. And apologies if my previous comment about documentation was taken as a slight - I was referring to Squad's lack of such, not yours, though my wording was more ambiguous than it could have been.

No offense taken. Your comment merely prompted me to suggest EL's docs but when I went to check the section/page, I found a rather sparse comment about the extractor module: not much use to you. If anything, I took it as a precognitive bug report .

36 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I've been there. It gets annoying, actually, when you have to do the roundabout work of going to the VAB, remembering the parts you want, building the dummy craft, and returning to the site to build it. OSE builds the part and stuffs it into the factory's own KIS space. Also, if you wanted to produce a KIS box full of little things, OSE saves you from having to remember (days later) what you stuffed into the KIS box on the last dummy craft. Instead of that, you build a new KIS box and stuff parts into it from the factory's inventory all without having to go to the VAB.

Not just this, but my ships/subassemblies directories get cluttered with lots of such one-shots, thus I'm working on a little something [nudge nudge ]

[pmoffitt]

2 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

Material Kits are also produced as part of the recipe chain for USI-MKS that uses Global Construction for building ships. Material Kits in MKS are roughly equivalent to Rocket Parts in EL. If I were to use OSE Workshop in a game with EL, I'd look at switching it over to use Rocket Parts instead of Material Kits instead of converting Material Kits into Rocket Parts. You are pretty much on your own to figure out how to modify your game to work the way you want.  For example I wanted to use the USI Kontainers instead of the EL's hexcans.  So I wrote my own patches to replace the MKS resources with the ones I actually needed for EL. 

Personally I've never seen the point to OSE Workshop if you can build complete ships with EL.  OSE Workshop just builds parts that you still have to assemble. If I need just a couple parts, it's not that difficult for me to go into the VAB stick them in a KIS container, save it and then build that on site. No extra workshop needed, no new resource chain.

I have half tried to mode things to allow production of either Rocket Parts or Material Kits, I haven't gotten it to work.  But then, I don't really know MM well enough (yet).

I haven't tried filling up a KIS container and building it onsite.  I didn't think that would work since tanks are built empty.  I will have to try that.  I have been sticking extra heat management devices on sections I am building as it appears I have a heat management issue.  Still learning what I need and don't need and how to use the parts.  (Wish I could get Xenon production to work, it seems to be producing but getting nowhere.)

Today, I have been having issues with crashing KSP.  Seems to wipe out all part references producing null references.  I had to go back to an old persistent.sfs and then load my latest save.  And it just crashed again, I had just tried to switch to the Space Center and then a unity error.  Player Log is full of parts with null reference again.

42 minutes ago, taniwha said:

Not just this, but my ships/subassemblies directories get cluttered with lots of such one-shots, thus I'm working on a little something [nudge nudge ]

Subassemblies full of one-shots is becoming a thing.  I have just started using one called temp.

So, what you working on?

 

So how does one put a quantity of stackable items in to the config for preloading chair inventory slots?  I can put a single object in but I would love to set it for say a dozen ELSurveyStakes?

Edited September 27, 2020 by pmoffitt

[taniwha]

Just now, pmoffitt said:

I have been sticking extra heat management devices on sections I am building as it appears I have a heat management issue.  Still learning what I need and don't need and how to use the parts

I have found that putting radiators on your Metal and RocketParts storage containers, and on anything that converts Metal to RocketParts is quite effective. The reason for this is that when a resource is transfered, so its its thermal energy. Thus pouring freshly smelted Metal into tanks heats up those tanks, and working that hot Metal heats up the converter (which, in my case, is often the rocket workbench and thus dangerous for my Kerbals: I've had them overheat on occasion).

Some other things I've found regarding heat (with EL's smelters):

• Keeping them full of MetalOre helps stabilize the temperature somewhat (I turn my smelters on and off all the time: loaded with ore, they take longer to cool off).
• Filling a hot smelter with fresh MetalOre causes the temperature to plummet (dumping cold ore into a hot smelter will do that, I guess )
• While potentially wasteful (depends on how much scrap metal you're processing), running the ore and scrap metal converters simultaneously both speeds up heating and gives an efficiency boost to ore conversion (does hurt scrap metal processing, though).

[kspnerd122]

EL will not work, I am using mods that do not break EL in other instances but it broke anyway, Is there a fix.

 

[DStaal]

1 hour ago, kspnerd122 said:

EL will not work, I am using mods that do not break EL in other instances but it broke anyway, Is there a fix.

Define 'will not work'.  Preferably using logs.

[kspnerd122]

It will not appear on the toolbar, all other mods do not conflict with EL I will be using Ground Construction in the future.