Bring Back the Barn!

[razark]

Everything is centered around the VAB anyway. The runway, launchpad, admin building and SPH are disconnected but everything else's models could be shifted toward the VAB and make the space center look much more compact.

Johnson Space Center here is kind of sprawled out. There's a central campus that houses most of the facilities, but there are several clusters of buildings set away from the central area. When your R&D people are testing explosives or rocket engines, you don't do it in the middle of an office complex.

[basic.syntax]

Homespun humor is all over the place, in the IVA's and every part description. KSP is "sim lite" and meant to be equal parts fun (or funny) and educational.

It will probably not take long to start upgrading from the "barn" tier, when it's finalized.

Fits perfectly with the can-do, carefree attitude of KerbalKind.

They started with duct tape and bailing wire, and never stopped trying

[RobotsAndSpaceships]

YES. Everything is centered around the VAB anyway. The runway, launchpad, admin building and SPH are disconnected but everything else's models could be shifted toward the VAB and make the space center look much more compact.

Check out the KSC++ mod, it adds a lot of extra buildings to KSC.

[Crimson Sunrise]

You could probably build a real barn for the same price it takes to demand the barn's return in here...Except that it doesn't require you spending money on wood and stuff.

[O-Doc]

I've played about 8hrs of KSP since 0.25. It's mostly the art stuff that's killing my enjoyment of the game(Porkjet's wings being the worse offense). Squad needs to have a serious internal conversation about the art direction of the game because at the moment it's just a mishmash of dialogues, geometries and textures.

I'm talking about art direction, not graphic design. No attempt has been made to reconcile the models with their manufacturers and descriptions. For those who hate on the barn, where does Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spacecraft Parts Co. fit into the high tech world of KSP? I know the barn graphic design, to put it politely, was a little rushed. But, where is the story of a space center built from humble beginnings to an interplanetary launch facility? Composition is the key word. The current attempt for beta tier one looks like a placeholder for the future, final tier KSC. That's far from organic.

[razark]

...where does Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spacecraft Parts Co. fit into the high tech world of KSP?

It belongs in the past, when small rockets were being built out of junk. Not in the present, where the program is capable of launching a crewed vehicle.

I am personally not a fan of the craptacular space program, and find it rather silly.

[Tw1]

I've played about 8hrs of KSP since 0.25. It's mostly the art stuff that's killing my enjoyment of the game(Porkjet's wings being the worse offense). Squad needs to have a serious internal conversation about the art direction of the game because at the moment it's just a mishmash of dialogues, geometries and textures.

I'm talking about art direction, not graphic design. No attempt has been made to reconcile the models with their manufacturers and descriptions. For those who hate on the barn, where does Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spacecraft Parts Co. fit into the high tech world of KSP? I know the barn graphic design, to put it politely, was a little rushed. But, where is the story of a space center built from humble beginnings to an interplanetary launch facility? Composition is the key word. The current attempt for beta tier one looks like a placeholder for the future, final tier KSC. That's far from organic.

I think it looks fine. Making something neat out of mismatched parts is part of the fun. Plus, the only parts that really look low tech are some of the X-200 tanks.

[CaptainKipard]

They're doing it twice anyway, as they already did it once and now they have to do it again. And then probalby do a final pass on THAT. So the griping caused them to do it 3 times.

So feel free to not understand my point of view. I'll voice it to Squad at every opportunity anyway.

Wut?

You haven't really made an argument. What's the point? Bac9 didn't iterate his buildings, he just did them once, like a pro. This is soo weird. Why redo things? Squad did this with parts, and now with this. It's a waste of time..just because people are impatient? Come on..

btw "griping" is the word you chose to use, again, for seemingly no rational reason.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[Superfluous J]

Wut?

You haven't really made an argument. What's the point? Bac9 didn't iterate his buildings, he just did them once, like a pro. This is soo weird. Why redo things? Squad did this with parts, and now with this. It's a waste of time..just because people are impatient? Come on..

Like I said. You don't understand my point of view and while I understand yours I don't agree with it. Nothing either of us says to the other will change either of our minds. I'm just hoping that next time I'll be able to change Squad's.

Or more accurately, convince Squad to NOT change theirs.

[John FX]

Personally, I sat on the sidelines during the whole barn thing. Squad showed us this thing, and tons of people jumped down their throat about it. I wanted to play in barns. I didn't care if the graphics weren't perfect. I didn't feel the need to voice my opinion and suddenly we weren't getting gameplay content.

I've decided from now on when people complain and whine and act like 3 year olds, that I'll state my opinion as well. I would have rather had the barns than not. I would have rather had 4 tiers of buildings than 3. I would have taken them with pure white textures. Or the textures they had. I don't care, because unlike so many here I know that they're going to get another pass, and I'd rather have the game content now than have every single pixel be up to the high standards of our "community."

So yeah. #BringBackTheBarn.

Lots of this. The way it looked to me was that some hypercritical OCD people had major issues with minor flaws and created a big hoo-haw. I really liked it. I liked the idea of starting in a barn that Jeb worked in. I thought they looked good.

A lot better then the ones we are playing with right now in 0.90 THAT NOBODY IS COMPLAINING ABOUT AT ALL.

They look terrible IMHO and I`d rather have literally a 2D icon saying `content due here`...

The barn was ten times better.

Remember, you can`t please all the people all the time and the ones you are not pleasing will shout the loudest.

So yeah. #BringBackTheBarn. +1

[CaptainKipard]

Like I said. You don't understand my point of view and while I understand yours I don't agree with it. Nothing either of us says to the other will change either of our minds. I'm just hoping that next time I'll be able to change Squad's.

Or more accurately, convince Squad to NOT change theirs.

You haven't said anything yet though. Do you hope to change Squad's mind with the same? People actually explained their reasons. You just said, <paraphrasing>I want it</paraphrasing>.

You don't agree with what? Is there something not factual in my posts? Did my logic fail somewhere?

major issues with minor flaws

No. You just have very low expectations.

[Capt Snuggler]

I liked the idea of starting in a barn that Jeb worked in. I thought they looked good.

the barn idea wasn't strong. "Barngate":sticktongue: proved that. BUT BUT BUT they could have pulled it off with better quality artwork.

A lot better then the ones we are playing with right now in 0.90 THAT NOBODY IS COMPLAINING ABOUT AT ALL.

They look terrible IMHO and I`d rather have literally a 2D icon saying `content due here`...

The barn was ten times better.

...well I've been complaining about that too, but the barn was not better.

Remember, you can`t please all the people all the time and the ones you are not pleasing will shout the loudest.

So yeah. #BringBackTheBarn. +1

I think Cpt. Kipard summed this one up:

No. You just have very low expectations.

I cant speak for everyone but its clear to me that many people have come to expect a certain standard of artwork from KSP. when this standard is not met, it is jarring and worrying and people are going complain.

I guess what I'm concerned about is when squad present low quality art, it feels that squad are trying to rush KSP to the finish line.

I don't want KSP v1.0 abandoned as a mishmash of broken features and varying visual quality.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Whirligig Girl]

The Barn's probably coming back, just much improved in quality.

[John FX]

You just have very low expectations.

I have realistic expectations for models in a game which you hardly ever see close enough to distinguish the features at the level that other people are saying are game breakers...

Now people can say that they think the barn was not better and that is fine, you are allowed your opinion, but I would appreciate less personal comments in return when I express my opinion Cpt Kipard....

Myself I find that quite rude. It definitely does not persuade me of your argument.

In polite discussion, I say what I think and you say what you think and neither of us says what we think of each other and neither of us says "What you think is invalid/wrong" on topics that are based on personal opinion like artwork.

This is what I think.

I liked the barn idea. I think the barn was ten times better than the generic box type buildings we ended up having and I feel the backlash was counter productive in the long run and displayed a lack of foresight as to the actual effect it would have (no tier one at all in 0.90, thanks). I also think the modelling was good enough for the purpose which is not a first person shooter where the character stands next to and inside the building, it is for a space rocket game that needs to watch the amount of memory it uses on features, models and textures and balance the needs of one against the needs of the other hopefully leaving some left for mods.

No it was not the ultimate quality that Unity is capable of displaying but I reckon it was a good compromise for the system it had to operate under. It was the most fit for purpose.

[bdito]

I'm not sure how the Unity system works in regards to memory management but wouldn't having higher detailed textures increase the memory usage and slow the game down, especially with a lot of mods? If that's the case you would definitely need to balance the tradeoff.

Obviously the best outcome would be for Unity to support multithreading and then they could have amazing textures and everything would be smoother and lag-free but we know that's very unlikely.

[CaptainKipard]

Alright alright...

I have nothing against the "barn idea".

I'm complaining about the really poor quality of its execution.

People seem to conflate these two issues. Your comment about minor issues and people over reacting speaks for itself. If I had said "My standards are high", or "My standards are in line with current technology" You wouldn't have complained. Temet nosce.

I liked the trailer idea actually, I liked the little telescope idea. But they sucked graphically. Squad have the final tier KSC and SP+ parts as their standard currently. That's all there is to it.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[ElJugador]

Agree with above. ^ Right on the mark.

In my own words:

Okay. I know you #BringBacktheBarn folks liked the spirit of the images. So did I. The idea of starting out from a disused ... farm ... park place excited my imagination too. I didn't really mind the egregious modeling and texturing at first. But let's face facts - this T1 would have been abysmal. There was no coordination here at all - it's unclear what most buildings are supposed to be, and the variety of facilities depicted (a trailer park next to a .. fertilizer storage facility which is behind a ... I don't know... vaguely barn-looking thing?) really causes each facility to clash with the style of the next, making this KSP look like an amateurish mess. Lastly, that observatory... that Mission Control ... just _ugh_. Perhaps if they significantly reworked the style, making buildings look low-tech but not cobbled together (as some have suggested) and making the purpose of each clearer by the layout of each building according to the later tiers, it might just work. But for now, my personal and insignificant verdict is: #Don'tBringBackTheBarn +1

[Pthigrivi]

Christ. in. heaven. It was a sneak preview of work that was 20% complete. Can we please move on from the moaning about graphics? Nobody has played with the final result. No one has seen the final result. We're just discussing the merits of a thematic idea.

This is all a tempest in a teapot, but as a serious point, big part of KSP's charm is the way it lends an air of adventure and playfulness to the more serious business of rocket science. These are little green men recklessly launching themselves into space. Great! What was so exciting to us BringBacktheBarn folks was the hint at a real story there. Not some backstory lore on a wiki, but a real, played, experienced story that you live out with them from the humble beginnings rummaging for rocket parts in a junkyard to a legit cutting edge space program. It made the early stages feel fun! There was a real sense daring and charm about it. As you progress things could look more industrial and finally space aged. You could see a stylistic change and growth as Jeb and his buddies learned and refined and could afford bigger and better and glitzier things. Very deliberately the style of the early tier buildings should not fit with the tier 3 buildings. If they did there would be no sense of progress, no sense of "yay! new things!". You have to start small to get that feeling. Otherwise you have what we see now, vaguely unobtrusive, uninspiring, bland boxes that sort of get bigger as you go. Im sure the guys at Squad are working on this, and they really just wanted to get the basic mechanics running so we can iron out all the kinks. Im just hoping in the end they dont go the boring, easy route. I hope there's a real story there, and that we can see it in the art.

[Geodude]

I condone in #BringBackTheBarn movement that roninpawn (

) made a point about. Its a great aspect and homely feeling to the game where you start in a rocket/aerospace enthusiast setting with trailers, sandbags, barns and silos on someones farm or property where they build small rockets/planes and try to make something of it. I was disappointed at the small-scale corporation buildings in this beta release for the tier 1 KSC. I like how it looked being a privately owned and operated KSC getting funding wherever possible with the idea that it grows into the prestigious operation that we saw in the 0.25 patch.

[GusTurbo]

Christ. in. heaven. It was a sneak preview of work that was 20% complete. Can we please move on from the moaning about graphics? Nobody has played with the final result. No one has seen the final result. We're just discussing the merits of a thematic idea.

This is all a tempest in a teapot, but as a serious point, big part of KSP's charm is the way it lends an air of adventure and playfulness to the more serious business of rocket science. These are little green men recklessly launching themselves into space. Great! What was so exciting to us BringBacktheBarn folks was the hint at a real story there. Not some backstory lore on a wiki, but a real, played, experienced story that you live out with them from the humble beginnings rummaging for rocket parts in a junkyard to a legit cutting edge space program. It made the early stages feel fun! There was a real sense daring and charm about it. As you progress things could look more industrial and finally space aged. You could see a stylistic change and growth as Jeb and his buddies learned and refined and could afford bigger and better and glitzier things. Very deliberately the style of the early tier buildings should not fit with the tier 3 buildings. If they did there would be no sense of progress, no sense of "yay! new things!". You have to start small to get that feeling. Otherwise you have what we see now, vaguely unobtrusive, uninspiring, bland boxes that sort of get bigger as you go. Im sure the guys at Squad are working on this, and they really just wanted to get the basic mechanics running so we can iron out all the kinks. Im just hoping in the end they dont go the boring, easy route. I hope there's a real story there, and that we can see it in the art.

All we are really asking is consistency in quality and art direction. You seem convinced that people want boring buildings. I'd be happy with a barn that was on par with B9's buildings in terms of quality. They don't even have to be as detailed, as far as I'm concerned.

[John FX]

Alright alright...

I have nothing against the "barn idea".

I'm complaining about the really poor quality of its execution.

People seem to conflate these two issues. Your comment about minor issues and people over reacting speaks for itself. If I had said "My standards are high", or "My standards are in line with current technology" You wouldn't have complained. Temet nosce.

I liked the trailer idea actually, I liked the little telescope idea. But they sucked graphically. Squad have the final tier KSC and SP+ parts as their standard currently. That's all there is to it.

Then I think we are in general agreement. (If you had said the barn did not meet your standards then I wouldn`t have taken it personally as you would have been commenting on yourself and what you think rather than me, apologies if I overreacted...) If you had said "My standards are in line with current technology" I would have said that KSP itself is not in line with current technology and so the models in the game have to be at a suitable level to not stress the limited resources at the games disposal. I quite like the barn concept, the trailers and sandbags, while not the idea I had in my mind, match the feel of what I had in my mind and I totally see that it was not as finished as it should be for a final result. I still think the reaction from the community was a bit OTT and stopped the barn from seeing light of day in 0.90.0 at which point much more people would have a closer look at what it was exactly (and could make possibly better criticism)

I reckon I have been conflating when people say how bad the execution of the idea was with people saying how bad they thought the idea was overall as there have been both positions being firmly put forward since `raising a barn`, sometimes by the same person.

I`m all up for SQUAD tidying up the barn, making edges meet, improving textures and making the feel match the overall feel of the game while retaining enough individuality so that you feel like you have upgraded instead of just having a larger model of the same building. That can only be a good thing.

Also, I don`t think the barn is gone for good anyway, all signs are that it is being worked on to raise the quality to `finished` before release (which ironically means that it will probably be fairly set and any remaining issues won`t get fixed until after 1.0)

Myself I call an issue minor when most people in normal play would not notice the difference if it was fixed. Other people may have a different definition and that is OK.

BTW did people know that you can make explosive out of fertiliser? it should in theory be possible to make rocket fuel...

How would people feel about #improvethebarnandthenbringitback?

It would stop conflation...

All we are really asking is consistency in quality and art direction. You seem convinced that people want boring buildings. I'd be happy with a barn that was on par with B9's buildings in terms of quality. They don't even have to be as detailed, as far as I'm concerned.

I would also like this. I`d rather have all the features at lower quality than less features that were very polished at this stage though, this stage (at the time) being Alpha. Now 0.90 is out and KSP *is* in Beta we should be looking at the feature complete game and pointing out things that could be expanded on within the existing systems (atmosphere model for example) or improved graphically (flame, clouds, smoke, buildings etc). It would be odd if the game did not have an `art quality` pass at some point then a `bugfixing pass` and so forth. It seems like the cart is before the horse on this one.

I feel we have been offered a cake, some people moaned about the quality of the frosting so the whole cake was taken away for the frosting to be redone.

I don`t even like frosting that much, I was looking forward to the cake...

[CaptainKipard]

#improvethebarnandthenbringitback?

Lol, alright

This is the second time in a short while that we came to a compromise and an understanding. I wish everyone was as open minded.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[Baythan]

Sadly, I did not see the barn as it was presented wherever it was presented. I do like the idea of starting out as a backyard rocket lab built on a farm though, it feels very Kerbal. Many of us here have been playing for so long we might think the barn idea is silly and we are past that, we've all learned a lot about rockets and how to make them work in this game, or are rocket scientists already. But this is KERBAL Space Program, it's SUPPOSED to be silly. Way back when I started playing KSP I had the feeling of an amateur rocket enthusiast/crazy bomber because stuff just exploded all over the place. It spoke to the idea of who and what these little green dudes are: Crazy, Gung-Ho, not exceptionally bright, but still launching rockets!

I say #Bringbackthebarn or #improvethebarnandthenbringitback. As it has been stated, and apparently overlooked, whatever was shown was only 20% complete. So, yes, the graphics were probably bad (again, I didn't see it), but they were INCOMPLETE! Whatever was seen would NOT have made it into 0.90.0. The models would have been finished, polished, adjusted, levelled, painted, etc. Now we don't know WHAT it would have looked like because people complained about the cake while it was still being baked.

I love the barn idea, I think it fits the flavor of what KSP should be in the early game. I definitely want it to look nice too, as nice as a barn can look anyway. I think we should have that runway, even if it's just a dirt road that we take off and land on. A nice silo with a ladder/platform on it for air control it a good fit. Some trailers for the admin buildings, a Barn or two for the VAB and SPH. Tracking station could be a telescope, a laptop and some other instruments spread out on a card table. Think October Sky, but more haphazard and Kerballized.

Of course, a re-worked Tech Tree to go along with it would be nice too. I want to build a crop-duster first... because I want to build planes first. Other people want probes first, and still more want to go full Kerbal and strap Jeb on top of a rocket for the maiden engine test.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I agree with everyone to some extent. I love the barn idea, but the models should be up to (game-current) standards. Maybe Squad messed up in showing it to the public unfinished, but it sounds like a lot of really vocal people went a bit overboard in calling them out on it. It happened, oh well, let it go and look forward. Finish the barn, bring it back and lets see what doesn't explode when the engines light.

[John FX]

Lol, alright

This is the second time in a short while that we came to a compromise and an understanding. I wish everyone was as open minded.

The world is not black and white, it`s all the crazy colours under the sun. Most people like colours...

I generally come to an understanding with people that actually argue their point instead of attack and who carry on talking. Those two things generally lead to agreement or compromise eventually as the issues get worked out and common ground is found.

[Vanamonde]

Those who hate the barn: it is being reworked.

Those who love the barn: it is coming back.

Everybody: please remember other forum members are not your enemies, and keep these discussions civil.