KSP Weekly: We’re turning into polyglots!

[atomontage]

On 05.02.2017 at 3:13 PM, T-Red said:

I volunteered to help with Russian translation, but, sadly, my letter has been just ignored. Well, I hope that other people working on it will do a good job, because, unfortunately, most "Russian localizations" of games have questionable quality.

Yeah, same thing here. I hope they just got flooded with russian volunteers willing to help.

Where do I bloody sign the "most "Russian localizations" of games have questionable quality." thing?

And SQUAD! Don't tell us then you could not do it better!

Edited February 8, 2017 by atomontage

[EBOSHI]

Having a road map and vision and announcing it is a totally different problem. In the past weekly news, some of the vision has been a glimpse and they must have it. However, there is no way to show it to people who are not tolerant of even localization.
If you argue that, you would like to discuss as well as the "positive impact" brought by the weekly progress reported and the milestone before the update here.

Edited February 8, 2017 by EBOSHI

[TriggerAu]

I'm a few days late to the party on this topic (sorry), but wanted to say that from the visibility I have there is a roadmap/feature plan/future plan (which ever terms suits), but no it is not public.

[HebaruSan]

4 hours ago, regex said:

Something like what the Factorio devs have done would have been amazing during the alpha and beta programs. Squad have been lauded for "doing EA right" but I don't think they have. The Factorio devs ... those people did EA right; great communication, clear and public vision of what they wanted to get done, uncompromising release quality, etc... Doesn't mean Squad haven't done a good job with KSP (I'm still putting in 20+ hour playing weeks even after four years) just that they haven't exactly been ... good about communication historically.

Factorio somehow tracks millions of moving objects with almost no CPU consumption. Let's be frank about just how high the bar set by that team is.

As for roadmaps, it was strongly implied around the time of 1.0 that that version number was chosen because all of the originally envisioned goals were met. Presumably there was at least one document listing them. (I'm not saying KSP was then or is now perfect, just that that's not what "feature complete" means.)

[Enceos]

@regex Squad is not a fully indie company, more like a semi-indie. In indie companies owners are usually the visionaries who are deeply involved in the development of their product and make all the financial and big development decisions themselves. Squad is a marketing company where KSP became a successful side project. The producer/project manager has to be that visionary and there's an extra step where he has to persuade the owners to make a financial decision or a critical step in a certain direction. I believe that takes tremendous amounts of effort, eloquence and, more importantly, personal motivation.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Enceos

[regex]

11 minutes ago, TriggerAu said:

 there is a roadmap/feature plan/future plan (which ever terms suits), but no it is not public.

And that's always been the problem. No big deal, I guess, I've come to terms with that.

7 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Factorio somehow tracks millions of moving objects with almost no CPU consumption. Let's be frank about just how high the bar set by that team is.

In terms of technical skill, yeah, I agree. In terms of communicating their vision of the game and what they want to accomplish, no, they're not especially exceptional, plenty of other studios do that.

Just now, Enceos said:

@regex Squad is not a fully indie company, more like a semi-indie.

Well, as I said, I wish they'd "indie up". Either way, the distinction is academic, they have functioned much like an indie game company and the industry thinks of them as such.

[0111narwhalz]

Just now, HebaruSan said:

Factorio somehow tracks millions of moving objects with almost no CPU consumption. Let's be frank about just how high the bar set by that team is.

I think they make great use of the fact that items on belts effectively form immutable strings of items (except when modified by inserters, backlogging, and belt speed changes), and so that belt with eight hundred copper ore only needs to be considered by its ends. Working in a system with fewer degrees of freedom lets you get away with a lot of tricks, especially when pretty much everything important is integers.

Still, Wube is definitely doing early access right. Very, very right. They are pretty much a paragon of project management and community interaction, and if ever I get into gamedev, the copper-toned cog of Factorio will serve to remind me how it's done.

(If they had a logo, that would work better. But I can't find anything save for some bland white text on generic waves.)

[Enceos]

2 minutes ago, regex said:

Well, as I said, I wish they'd "indie up". Either way, the distinction is academic, they have functioned much like an indie game company and the industry thinks of them as such.

Impossible, they still have a boss to report to and ask for permissions. That won't change.

[regex]

Just now, Enceos said:

Impossible, they still have a boss to report to and ask for permissions. That won't change.

It's like no one reads anything I write around here. Seriously.

[Enceos]

On 07.02.2017 at 6:56 AM, regex said:

Not rolling my eyes, I'd love it if Squad "indied up" and did a proper roadmap like most of my other favorite indie companies, I'm just laughing because it'll never happen.

I believe we're on the same page. It's just that I explained why it'll never happen.  

[regex]

9 minutes ago, Enceos said:

I believe we're on the same page. It's just that I explained why it'll never happen.  

Sorry, I've been mad^tm about the roadmap for years now.

I mean, if they'd had a damn public roadmap literally 80% of my earlier forum rants would never have happened.

Edited February 8, 2017 by regex

[Enceos]

For Factorio developers the level of motivation and involvement: "Factorio is my life"

For KSP developers this level is "KSP is my job"

That's how the reality is, at least in this universe. Different level of motivation, different results.

 

My level of motivation: "KSP is my hobby"

Many people one these forums have "KSP is my love" level of motivation, and I admire them.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Enceos

[Ser]

On 05.02.2017 at 3:13 PM, T-Red said:

I volunteered to help with Russian translation, but, sadly, my letter has been just ignored. Well, I hope that other people working on it will do a good job, because, unfortunately, most "Russian localizations" of games have questionable quality.

That's why people should learn the god damn language instead of chasing localizations (agreed with @something). Everyone would benefit from that in the end.

 

8 hours ago, /not/pol/ said:

I actually made one of my planes do a backflip and STICK IT PERFECTLY because of runway seems. dont remove plz. or someone make a mod that adds them back.

I can promise that after the fix will be released if you wish I'll make a mod that randomly makes your vessels jump a few meters up. Personally for you.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Ser

[0111narwhalz]

38 minutes ago, Ser said:

That's why people should learn the god damn language instead of chasing localizations (agreed with @something). Everyone would benefit from that in the end.

I disagree with this position. What language shall be made the One True Tongue? That's a discussion likely to be R2.2'd, so let's make a new language equally accessible to all (or most) people. Wait, we already have that! About three hundred of that. Lojban, Esperanto, et cetera, et cetera. Plus, forcing everyone to use the same language is a great way to damage culture and free-thinking. The way you talk is very important to the way you think, and so restricting language is restricting thought. Unless that's how your culture operates already, it will probably prove injurious.

 

50 minutes ago, Ser said:

I can promise that after the fix will be released if you wish I'll make a mod that randomly makes your vessels jump a few meters up. Personally for you.

Heh. Even I could probably manage a "general chaos" mod, and my modding experience approximates that of a particularly precocious head of lettuce.

[TriggerAu]

3 hours ago, Enceos said:

...

For KSP developers this level is "KSP is my job"

...

I'm gonna disagree with you there Enceos, It's certainly more than a day job for me and everyone I work with is very passionate about it. It may be a perception that some people have, and it makes me a little sad if people do feel that way, but its not something that anyone other than the devs can state.

[Ser]

2 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

I disagree with this position. What language shall be made the One True Tongue? That's a discussion likely to be R2.2'd, so let's make a new language equally accessible to all (or most) people. Wait, we already have that! About three hundred of that. Lojban, Esperanto, et cetera, et cetera. Plus, forcing everyone to use the same language is a great way to damage culture and free-thinking. The way you talk is very important to the way you think, and so restricting language is restricting thought. Unless that's how your culture operates already, it will probably prove injurious.

I don't speak of the global language unification. I mean specifically English for Russian users of the software made originally in English. You see, in Russia every school, college and university has mandatory English classes. So if a person graduates a school he should know at least the basics of the language. And that's because English is the main international language today, it's everywhere. Every imported product has description in English and also English terms are widely used in technical sphere and gaming.
At the time when I started to play PC games the vast majority of them weren't localized at all and I just had to learn live. That's not so hard, because when you see the same words and phrases 20 times a day you start to guess their meaning at least by context. And only a small portion of entire language is used in majority of games. But then "russializations" started to appear. It was hard to understand anything even from officially released translations. What translation software in the world could translate the camouflage tent in OFP as "herring"? Not to mention "masterpieces" like GTA S.A. localization. Professional software is hard to use because of poorly translated specific terms too. The most frustrating is the fact that often it is the only option to use localized software: "The product is available in Russian only for the users from your region". And all that garbage is generated to satisfy, mostly, the people who were too lazy to learn at school and later, and who still pronounce "launch" like "lounge" or "raider" like "rider" (omg, "Tomb rider" - the native speakers must be dying of laugh, that's a great shame). I'm sure if they had used their brains instead of yelling "is there a Russian version?" their quality of life would be higher, as well as mine.

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Ser

[p1t1o]

Quite some salt over localisations!

Firstly, Squad have no obligation to include any localisation. Feel like your community is ignored by the industry, never producing things in your language? That is not Squads fault.

There is a direct trade-off between localisation and sales. If the equation doesnt balance, there is no moral or ethical dillemma.

And speaking as someone whose job involves a very wide selection of documents in other languages (as a global company, we have to produce certain official documentation in almost any language) I can say that there are ALL sorts of problems with getting "official" translations done. Language is a funny thing. We have had documents professionally translated, only to have the customer come back and say "This...this makes no sense. These words here are in the wrong order and this part is gibberish. I'll say it again, Languages are a funny thing.

So,

1) translation and localisation is non-trivial, non-perfect, time consuming, costly and hard. Even if you do have a group of consumers doing amateur translations for you.

2) there is a direct reward for Squad (more sales) for completing a localisation, and a direct punishment (lack of sales) for leaving a particular language out.

3) did someone srsly suggest "learn the language"?

***

4 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

I think they make great use of the fact that items on belts effectively form immutable strings of items

Apparently this is quite a recent addition, and before, prolific belts would cause major slowdown.

 

[Enceos]

1 hour ago, TriggerAu said:

I'm gonna disagree with you there Enceos, It's certainly more than a day job for me and everyone I work with is very passionate about it. It may be a perception that some people have, and it makes me a little sad if people do feel that way, but its not something that anyone other than the devs can state.

Sounds very reassuring  to hear that the dev team has the "KSP is my passion" level of commitment.  I do really hope that upper management doesn't become a stumbling-stone in what you want to do for KSP.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Enceos

[cfds]

3 hours ago, p1t1o said:

1) translation and localisation is non-trivial, non-perfect, time consuming, costly and hard. Even if you do have a group of consumers doing amateur translations for you.

It is costly and hard if you rework the whole software to replace all string constants with references to a string table that has to be crated and maintained for every language.

We are talking SQUAD here, I would not be surprised if the whole localization does amount to "a specific set of configs and textures for every language". Where the text in the configs is done by outsourcing it to free volunteers and all SQUAD does is recreating the "funny post-its" in the IVA for the supported languages...

[Enceos]

@cfds What takes a single word to describe in one language may take a sentence to describe in another. Adjusting all these different words to fit the UI is not a trivial task. 

[Terwin]

7 hours ago, Enceos said:

For KSP developers this level is "KSP is my job"

Have you ever looked at RoverDude's mods?  He is prolific, and they are neither small nor abandoned mods.

You would think that those mods are his day-job from how much he does with them.

And that is on top of his work with SQUAD.

It is often hard to imagine how he gets it all done without giving up sleep, so asserting that KSP is anything less than a major passion for him is dubious at best.

I have not payed as much attention to the work of the other devs, but it seems reasonable that at least the other modders that were hired would be similar.

[Enceos]

@Terwin Take your time to read the thread. Pshaw!

Edited February 8, 2017 by Enceos

[Terwin]

2 minutes ago, Enceos said:

@Terwin Take your time to read the thread.

I recognize that you accepted the validity of a testimonial, but others with similar views may be more cynical about someone saying 'of course I am passionate about my job' so I added some empirical evidence in support of that testimonial.

(I am usually pretty good about reading a thread before posting, and I have often had to delete sections of a multi-quote because someone else provided an answer that would make my planned answer redundant, but I did not consider that to be the case in this instance)

 

[Ser]

1 hour ago, cfds said:

It is costly and hard if you rework the whole software to replace all string constants with references to a string table that has to be crated and maintained for every language.

We are talking SQUAD here, I would not be surprised if the whole localization does amount to "a specific set of configs and textures for every language". Where the text in the configs is done by outsourcing it to free volunteers and all SQUAD does is recreating the "funny post-its" in the IVA for the supported languages...

Read Weeklies once more. SQUAD always said that it's not as trivial. And it's indeed a pain both to implement and to maintain even if it's the matter of dealing with just a pair of text files.

[stibbons]

1 hour ago, Enceos said:

@Terwin Take your time to read the thread. Pshaw!

"Pshaw" is indeed a pretty good summary of this thread.