A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[Just Jim]

5 hours ago, Avery616 said:

Like do i post a thread and then add the story in the replies?

Or do i add the first bit of the story in the thread and add the rest of the additions to the story in the replies?

So i ask that any Older accounts on this thread to help this newbie along if they have the time. 

 

4 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Still others (e.g. @Just Jim) simply place a table of contents in the OP and link to comments with content.

Yeah, I find this to be the easiest, especially considering how big Emiko Station has become. By making the OP into a table of contents, readers can jump right to a particular chapter without having to sift thru hundreds of pages of comments to try and find it.

 

[DarkOwl57]

Just now, Just Jim said:

 

Yeah, I find this to be the easiest, especially considering how big Emiko Station has become. By making the OP into a table of contents, readers can jump right to a particular chapter without having to sift thru hundreds of pages of comments to try and find it.

 

Same. I used to have each chapter without a table of contents, but after sifting through the forums for examples, I decided to make a ToC (Table of Contents). Just makes it easier on the readers

[adsii1970]

I didn't have my table of contents until I got to about ten chapters into my story. So, what I did was to add one to the OP, but in a spoiler. Eventually, I'll add a graphic header - I'm just in awe at how crisp and clean "Emiko Station" looks and wish I would have had the foresight to do it like that...

[Just Jim]

10 minutes ago, DarkOwl57 said:

Same. I used to have each chapter without a table of contents, but after sifting through the forums for examples, I decided to make a ToC (Table of Contents). Just makes it easier on the readers

hehe... I won't lie, I also did it for my own convenience. Emiko has been going on for well over a year, and gotten so big, I have to go back from time to time and re-read what I wrote 6 months ago, to make sure my facts and sub-plots are still matching up. It's just like @0111narwhalz says:

5 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

I would suggest that you plan for the work being bigger than you expect, though, because these things run away easily.

OMG.... this is so true! When I started Emiko, I was thinking maybe 20-25 chapters... now I'm nearing 80, and have no clear end in sight! Every time something unexpected and cool happens, or if @SQUAD adds something new (like the recent Magic Boulders), you might think of some new possibility that adds half a dozen new chapters... or changes the ending entirely.

One thing I would highly recommend, make lots of backups, stay flexible, do not get totally locked into a plot-line, and take advantage of every unexpected crash or explosion or bug you can.... don't freak if something explodes, especially if you're backed up. Instead take as many screenshots as you can, and then decide if you can weave it into your story. If not, no big deal, reload the backup and carry on... but on several occasions, I've had something bug out and blow up, and it lead to some really dramatic moments...

13 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

I didn't have my table of contents until I got to about ten chapters into my story. So, what I did was to add one to the OP, but in a spoiler. Eventually, I'll add a graphic header - I'm just in awe at how crisp and clean "Emiko Station" looks and wish I would have had the foresight to do it like that...

I think it was about chapter 20 or so before I redid my OP into it's present form.

[adsii1970]

8 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

One thing I would highly recommend, make lots of backups, stay flexible, do not get totally locked into a plot-line, and take advantage of every unexpected crash or explosion or bug you can.... don't freak if something explodes, especially if you're backed up. Instead take as many screenshots as you can, and then decide if you can weave it into your story. If not, no big deal, reload the backup and carry on... but on several occasions, I've had something bug out and blow up, and it lead to some really dramatic moments...

[Edited by adsii1970 for content I wish to comment on]

Yes. This is exactly right. And on IMGUR, set your images up in albums that share the chapter name where they go. I started doing this after Chapter 15 of Kerny's Journal. This way, if I ever do have a massive forum crash issue, I know what pictures to use with what chapter.

And @Just Jim's right, take lots of screen shots. Here's what I do with them all - I upload them to IMGUR even if I do not use them in the story. The images within the story link back to the image album they are in. You can scroll through the extra pictures... I did it that way because way back I had someone who wanted more pictures than I was feeling needed to be in the story.

Also, do not hesitate to use props... I've done this several times - and it adds to the depths of the story. Here's what I am talking about:

In the foreground, there's the flatbed Egg - and believe it or not, the main reason it's there is to make the scene more believable. It gives the impression that the three Kerbalnauts in the picture traveled across the KSC. Even if you never use the vehicle, scaffolding, or whatever again, they do make the difference. Also, do not hesitate to "create" some culture for your green friends. I've done that in my story - and it's those details, again, that makes a difference. Things like "Twelve Dots" and "Hand of Five" which are clearly games, but undefined for the reader are subtle ways to remind the reader that Kerbals are NOT human... Just my two cents.

[Kerbinchaser]

Does anyone else use Wattpad to write? 

[Avery616]

11 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

@Avery616

There are almost as many ways to format your post as there are ways to write your story. Some authors (e.g. @steuben) like creating a new thread for each installment. Others (e.g. @Kuzzter) find that an index of Imgur albums in the OP of one thread works best for them. Still others (e.g. @Just Jim) simply place a table of contents in the OP and link to comments with content. On certain forums (e.g. the Limit Theory forums), it is customary to place content in one thread, and discussion in another.

Personally, I prefer the third option. Two of my three ongoing major works feature this mode. Kerbal Future does not, because it would make the first post far too large without a separate break, and I have too many comments to rekerjigger. I initialized Warped Stars with a short prologue, then proceeded to post chapters. The table of contents came later. YAMR, my latest, was initialized with an empty table of contents. I had to fight with the forum software to prevent it from automerging my first chapter, so note that hazard before choosing this option.

The second option may work well if your medium is entirely or almost entirely pictoral. It gives your readers a continuous reading experience, should they like. However, it does preclude the possibility of textual content, at least of any great size. Particularly well-suited to webcomics graphic novels. Content is still embedded within the thread.

The first option may work well if your works are episodic, and only tangentially related. It promotes discussion on a particular installment, rather than the collection as a whole. However, it tends to disjoint your work, so be aware that your readers are less likely to see connections between episodes.

The fourth option is largely unrepresented here. However, an example can be found in the Encyclopedia Kerbalis by @MinimalMinmus. Similar to option two, this one promotes a continuous work. May work well if you feel that commentary would detract from the experience.

These are but a few possibilities. Ultimately, it's up to you how your story will be published. I would suggest that you plan for the work being bigger than you expect, though, because these things run away easily.

writing!

 

11 hours ago, KSK said:

It almost never works here in my experience. Even when you post a request on the main thread to please put comments in #thisthreadhere, people rarely take much notice and just comment on the main thread anyway.

I prefer the third option myself. For episodic work, I don't mind having comments in the main thread anyway - it makes them easier to relate to specific parts of the story, especially if the story is long running.

Good luck with the series @Avery616!

 

9 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Actually, I didn't really think it as such, but rather as "Main thread: canon building, and more serious writings", and "sister thread: fun writings". I don't really think one is better to discuss than the others, and it's actually a spontaneous phenomenon as people don't want to disrupt the continuity.

Well thanks for all your help  I think im going to slowly add more content to the initial post as my method of series updation. Now i need a name.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Avery616
quick addition

[steuben]

The multiple tread thing that I've been using with The Groundbound series is an artifact of posting chapters out of order. I had to do it elsewhere. I didn't think it was worth the effort of juggling around posts to keep the order consistent this time... not sure if it was the right choice though.

[Kerbinchaser]

Just wrote a new mission report. I'll hope to keep this one going.

 

 

[steuben]

Lo Var Lachland "lines of the countries"? and for Chris Kerman  you may want to run through "Space Doctor" by Lee Correy, if you haven't already. He covers a fair bit of building space medicine, rather than space trauma control, from just after first principles.

Edited April 19, 2017 by steuben

[lodger]

I'm not a writer (I wish I was blessed with that talent) and I haven't read all of the mission reports and fan fiction that is available on this forum. But I want to thank every single one of you guys for all the mission reports, (short) stories and graphic novels that you folks are hammering out on this sub-forum: Thank you!

Edited April 21, 2017 by lodger

[steuben]

50 minutes ago, lodger said:

I'm not a writer (I wish I was blessed with that talent)

It ain't talent, it's da skillz. Well... maybe a bit of talent. The greats have talent. But, mostly it is practice and study. And I hereby invoke the <milks the sky cow> Rule of three! <cue dramatic lightning>

1. Good writing comes from reading many good books and a few bad ones.

2. Good writing comes from writing many bad stories and a few good ones.

3. Good writing comes from being able to tell the difference between the good and the bad.

[Just Jim]

6 minutes ago, steuben said:

It ain't talent, it's da skillz. Well... maybe a bit of talent. The greats have talent. But, mostly it is practice and study. And I hereby invoke the <milks the sky cow> Rule of three! <cue dramatic lightning>

1. Good writing comes from reading many good books and a few bad ones.

2. Good writing comes from writing many bad stories and a few good ones.

3. Good writing comes from being able to tell the difference between the good and the bad.

Oh, well said!!! I couldn't agree more!

I'm supposed to be pretty good at this writing thing, but I don't have any gift or talent or anything like that... what I do have is 50+ years of reading everything I could get my hands on. And not just sci-fi and horror. I love science and history, and I'm also a bit of a Nietzsche fan... I'll read pretty much anything if it catches my interest at the time.

And I recommend every aspiring writer do the same... read everything you can. And not just read... READ... pay attention to your favorite authors, and to their style of writing. Learn why you like them, and remember it when you write. Don't copy them, but definitely study them. 

[KSK]

20 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Oh, well said!!! I couldn't agree more!

I'm supposed to be pretty good at this writing thing, but I don't have any gift or talent or anything like that... what I do have is 50+ years of reading everything I could get my hands on. And not just sci-fi and horror. I love science and history, and I'm also a bit of a Nietzsche fan... I'll read pretty much anything if it catches my interest at the time.

And I recommend every aspiring writer do the same... read everything you can. And not just read... READ... pay attention to your favorite authors, and to their style of writing. Learn why you like them, and remember it when you write. Don't copy them, but definitely study them. 

First off - another thumbs up for @steuben's post! That about sums it up in my opinion.

I'm also finding that the READ part of @Just Jim's recommendation is a whole lot easier now that I've done a bit of writing myself. Rather than just letting the words pour in through my eyes, I'm finding I pay much more attention to them. Which hasn't always been a good thing for some of my favourite books. Love the stories still but oh goodness the writing!

 

[Just Jim]

23 minutes ago, KSK said:

Which hasn't always been a good thing for some of my favourite books. Love the stories still but oh goodness the writing!

I totally get what you're saying... the more I became a fan of Lovecraft, the more critical I became of other authors.

For those that haven't read him, Lovecraft didn't just write horror, he was one of those very rare intellectual writers that was far above the rest of his time, or even now... and he was sadly underappreciated until just the last couple decades.

For example, this is from of one of my absolute favorite Lovecraft tales, "The Whisperer in Darkness".... (and should be familiar to all Emiko readers... lol)

There was a harmless way to extract a brain, and a way to keep the organic residue alive during its absence. The bare, compact cerebral matter was then immersed in an occasionally replenished fluid within an ether-tight cylinder of a metal mined in Yuggoth, certain electrodes reaching through and connecting at will with elaborate instruments capable of duplicating the three vital faculties of sight, hearing, and speech. For the winged fungus-beings to carry the brain-cylinders intact through space was an easy matter. Then, on every planet covered by their civilisation, they would find plenty of adjustable faculty-instruments capable of being connected with the encased brains; so that after a little fitting these travelling intelligences could be given a full sensory and articulate life—albeit a bodiless and mechanical one—at each stage of their journeying through and beyond the space-time continuum. It was as simple as carrying a phonograph record about and playing it wherever a phonograph of the corresponding make exists. Of its success there could be no question. Akeley was not afraid. Had it not been brilliantly accomplished again and again?

This, my friends, was published in 1931. Nearly a century ago... and his style of writing and description still surpasses most modern authors... and most of the big authors will gladly admit it!

And H.P. Lovecraft is by far my biggest influence on not just what to write, but how to write, whenever possible.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Just Jim

[adsii1970]

20 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Oh, well said!!! I couldn't agree more!

I'm supposed to be pretty good at this writing thing, but I don't have any gift or talent or anything like that... what I do have is 50+ years of reading everything I could get my hands on. And not just sci-fi and horror. I love science and history, and I'm also a bit of a Nietzsche fan... I'll read pretty much anything if it catches my interest at the time.

And I recommend every aspiring writer do the same... read everything you can. And not just read... READ... pay attention to your favorite authors, and to their style of writing. Learn why you like them, and remember it when you write. Don't copy them, but definitely study them. 

Exactly - and do not just read science -fiction. Read non-fiction, too. This helps to not only expand your own knowledge base, but it gets you accustomed to another style of writing. In a sense, it is like adding another tool to your writer's tool kit. Right now, I am reading a mixture of books. The last non-fiction book I read was Charlie Mosher's Civil War Diary which covers from his initial enlistment and goes through his time as a prisoner of war at Andersonville.

21 hours ago, steuben said:

It ain't talent, it's da skillz. Well... maybe a bit of talent. The greats have talent. But, mostly it is practice and study. And I hereby invoke the <milks the sky cow> Rule of three! <cue dramatic lightning>

1. Good writing comes from reading many good books and a few bad ones.

2. Good writing comes from writing many bad stories and a few good ones.

3. Good writing comes from being able to tell the difference between the good and the bad.

And again, I agree whole heartedly. With one addition... good writing comes from knowing a good story and being able to tell it.

6 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

And H.P. Lovecraft is by far my biggest influence on not just what to write, but how to write, whenever possible.

[Edited by adsii1970 - and not because it was bad or redundant...]

Arthur C. Clark, Isaac Asimov, and Frank Herbert are my biggest influence...

Edited April 22, 2017 by adsii1970

[KSK]

16 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

I totally get what you're saying... the more I became a fan of Lovecraft, the more critical I became of other authors.

For those that haven't read him, Lovecraft didn't just write horror, he was one of those very rare intellectual writers that was far above the rest of his time, or even now... and he was sadly underappreciated until just the last couple decades.

For example, this is from of one of my absolute favorite Lovecraft tales, "The Whisperer in Darkness".... (and should be familiar to all Emiko readers... lol)

There was a harmless way to extract a brain, and a way to keep the organic residue alive during its absence. The bare, compact cerebral matter was then immersed in an occasionally replenished fluid within an ether-tight cylinder of a metal mined in Yuggoth, certain electrodes reaching through and connecting at will with elaborate instruments capable of duplicating the three vital faculties of sight, hearing, and speech. For the winged fungus-beings to carry the brain-cylinders intact through space was an easy matter. Then, on every planet covered by their civilisation, they would find plenty of adjustable faculty-instruments capable of being connected with the encased brains; so that after a little fitting these travelling intelligences could be given a full sensory and articulate life—albeit a bodiless and mechanical one—at each stage of their journeying through and beyond the space-time continuum. It was as simple as carrying a phonograph record about and playing it wherever a phonograph of the corresponding make exists. Of its success there could be no question. Akeley was not afraid. Had it not been brilliantly accomplished again and again?

This, my friends, was published in 1931. Nearly a century ago... and his style of writing and description still surpasses most modern authors... and most of the big authors will gladly admit it!

And H.P. Lovecraft is by far my biggest influence on not just what to write, but how to write, whenever possible.

Hmmm, that all certainly rang a bell or two. I'm sure I've read something a bit like it somewhere recently.

 

[adsii1970]

22 minutes ago, KSK said:

First off - another thumbs up for @steuben's post! That about sums it up in my opinion.

I'm also finding that the READ part of @Just Jim's recommendation is a whole lot easier now that I've done a bit of writing myself. Rather than just letting the words pour in through my eyes, I'm finding I pay much more attention to them. Which hasn't always been a good thing for some of my favourite books. Love the stories still but oh goodness the writing!

 

Sorry, folks, for the double post so close together. I messed up and hit "submit reply" rather than the button to add the quote.

Yes, it is easier to understand what authors are trying to do when you write stories yourself. For me, the two most influential works for me have been Asimov's Foundation series and Herbert's Dune series (just the books he wrote, Dune, Dune: Messiah, and Children of Dune. His son's books sucked). Both of these series actually are great works of master-craftsmanship storytelling at its finest. I'd love to have just 1/5th of that ability.

[Just Jim]

10 minutes ago, KSK said:

Hmmm, that all certainly rang a bell or two. I'm sure I've read something a bit like it somewhere recently.

 

Now you know the truth... 

[Just Jim]

33 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

His son's books sucked

I like the first few, especially how he and Anderson tackled the Butlarian Jihad. But in all fairness, they were writing it based on Frank's long lost notes. However, I totally agree the most recent Dune books seem... to be polite... repetitious.  

Anyway, to stay on topic, I totally agree Frank Herbert is another author not just worth reading but also studying... 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Just Jim

[Spaceception]

I have the first 250 words of my book (It'll probably get more edits though) what do you guys think? Any tips to improve it?

2313

Mimas spaceport, in a trailing orbit above Saturn.

 

    The air was thick with the scent of smoke, as rioters lit the clothes of people from Earth and Mars on fire from their lack of help over low resources, and severe overpopulation. The riots had been getting worse over the past few months, and didn’t look like they were getting better. Raven looked at them in a mixture of shock and bitterness as several people grabbed the naked workers and started beating them.

The next thing she knew, she was a child again, watching her father get beaten to death by rioters.

    Full of pent up rage, she ran over to the shouting crowd, and threw one of the rioters off of the man and towards the ground, she looked at the men they were attacking, they all had bloodied faces.

    She bent over, and tried helping one of them up, but was punched from behind and knocked over from one of them.

    She looked up at the assailant, holding her now bleeding ear. “Are you really going to defend those stand-up guys?” he shouted. He was about to punch her again when Morales, her pilot, grabbed him, “They’re letting us die!” he shouted, “And they don’t give a damn about it!” he looked like he was going to say more, but Morales jabbed him in the nose. She heard a loud crack that signaled he broke it before throwing him to the ground.

[Ehco Corrallo]

3 hours ago, Spaceception said:

I have the first 250 words of my book (It'll probably get more edits though) what do you guys think? Any tips to improve it?

Starting quickly is a great way to start. Violence is a great way to start quickly. And you've got that pretty well in hand. 

(Tangent: I'm a big proponent of violence. I'd say you can't have too much violence and rioting, but I suppose there is an upper limit to what the soft-stomached reader will stand. Writing violence usually gets boring before then, though, in my experience.)

Otherwise, just general editing should help. You may want to split up a few sentences for clarity. And a line break after "She looked up at the assailant..." helps with clarity. 

The phrase: "bloodied faces" is awesome. 

General writing advice that's worth repeating: Omit needless words! (Strunk and White) Make sure characters want something! (Vonnegut, I think, among others) Get rid of adverbs! (Pretty much everybody). Motivation is really important when starting out. If characters aren't moving towards anything, the story can pretty easily fall apart if they aren't. (Violence unfortunately only goes so far. Sigh.) 

[steuben]

13 hours ago, Spaceception said:

I have the first 250 words of my book (It'll probably get more edits though) what do you guys think? Any tips to improve it?

Generally shorten the sentences. Sentence length reflects speed. You seem to have a pretty sedate riot going on there.

Quote

as rioters lit the clothes ... on fire

Fire + Meat = Good. Fire + Spacestation = Bad. In the black, fire suppression is number two only to hull integrity. you'll have to Handwave it. For consideration, if the rioters or their supporters have gotten to the fire suppression systems... what else have they gotten to, or could they get to? How will station control deal with the fire if fire suppression is down? Given this is the first 250 words you may have addressed this in the next 1000 words. But, some of it should be brought forward.

Quote

from Earth and Mars on fire from their lack of help over low resources, and severe overpopulation.

You'll have to rework this one. It's a bit awkward. But it is also a place you can squeeze some exposition. Not much, you don't want to break the flow.

 

Quote

they all had bloodied faces.

attackers or victims? speckled? bleeding from cuts? painted? covered?

 

Quote

The next thing she knew, she was a child again, watching her father get beaten to death by rioters.

another spot for rework this one. perhaps, "she flashed back to her childhood. another riot, other rioters, same(?) reasons. it didn't matter. they beat her father to death as she watched." you can swap "same" or "different" there to add a bit more depth to the setting. if you go with same that means this has been an ongoing or recurring issue for some time. if you go with different that means other things like general long standing unrest or dissatisfaction with the folks in charge.

 

Quote

She looked up at the assailant, holding her now bleeding ear. “Are you really going to defend those stand-up guys?” he shouted. He was about to punch her again when Morales, her pilot, grabbed him, “They’re letting us die!” he shouted, “And they don’t give a damn about it!” he looked like he was going to say more, but Morales jabbed him in the nose. She heard a loud crack that signaled he broke it before throwing him to the ground.

Break that paragraph up. It's hard to follow, and figure out who's saying what. Shouted and exclamation points are redundant, one or the other... actually drop the exclamation points. I think I read somewhere you get to use one of them every 15,000 words. You've used two in the first 250.

Sorry, it's a bit red pen heavy. It's heavier than I like to receive anyways.

Are you following the nanowrimo approach to writing it or a conventional approach?

[Spaceception]

NaNo, Camp NaNo is actually in progress

[steuben]

/me winces

Okay. You'll have to bag it and tag it then, and do a heavy edit and restructuring run afterwards.