[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.14.0 "металл" 30/Sep/2024)

[CobaltWolf]

ACK! alright so I was gone last night taking care of my sick partner and had not one but two people purchase copies of the PDF and now I feel SO BAD. Please nobody buy it any more!

[Pappystein]

4 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

ACK! alright so I was gone last night taking care of my sick partner and had not one but two people purchase copies of the PDF and now I feel SO BAD. Please nobody buy it any more!

You almost had a 3rd (or more)  

Good to know people love you and the work you do man.    Hope you and yours are getting well/staying well.   

 

[CobaltWolf]

Off to a good start, thanks to @Invaderchaos and @biohazard15 for acquiring that document for me.
It's actually an intensely personal and fascinating read - really get a sense of what it was like for this group of people to spend their entire careers together working on just one project!

[biohazard15]

WRT WIP Hexagon:

1) If I understand correctly, it is modeled with that ring at the end:

NRO's "The HEXAGON Story" identifies it as "booster adapter". All "KH-9 in orbit" sketches from that book do not show it. Another NRO's book, "The History of HEXAGON Program", features a sketch of KH-9 as seen from the aft, and there is no identifiable ring either:

Not sure if it was supposed to stay attached to the satellite.

2) Solar panels: "The HEXAGON Story" tells that initially they planned to mount 20 solar panels (in two arrays of 10, I presume), but eventually had to add two more. The sketch also show 11-panel arrays.

(By the way, I was never sure how they were mounted and deployed. The only conclusion I came to is that they were mounted on deployable booms inside the aft section assembly (you can see a "rail" inside on that pic above). RCS thrusters were mounted at the endcaps of said booms (seen on photo). The booms extended once in orbit, and then solar panels deployed. If KH-9 actually used such system, and if you ever plan to replicate it, it would a) be beyond cool and b) solve about 97% cases of "where the hell I am going to put solar panels")

 

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

 

I was wondering if you model these little N2 tanks.

I think everyone here would agree that we need these as a separate part.

Because of, well, reasons .

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by biohazard15

[CobaltWolf]

12 minutes ago, biohazard15 said:

WRT WIP Hexagon:

1) If I understand correctly, it is modeled with that ring at the end:

NRO's "The HEXAGON Story" identifies it as "booster adapter". All "KH-9 in orbit" sketches from that book do not show it. Another NRO's book, "The History of HEXAGON Program", features a sketch of KH-9 as seen from the aft, and there is no identifiable ring either:

Not sure if it was supposed to stay attached to the satellite.

2) Solar panels: "The HEXAGON Story" tells that initially they planned to mount 20 solar panels (in two arrays of 10, I presume), but eventually had to add two more. The sketch also show 11-panel arrays.

(By the way, I was never sure how they were mounted and deployed. The only conclusion I came to is that they were mounted on deployable booms inside the aft section assembly (you can see a "rail" inside on that pic above). RCS thrusters were mounted at the endcaps of said booms (seen on photo). The booms extended once in orbit, and then solar panels deployed. If KH-9 actually used such system, and if you ever plan to replicate it, it would a) be beyond cool and b) solve about 97% cases of "where the hell I am going to put solar panels")

I was wondering if you model these little N2 tanks.

I think everyone here would agree that we need these as a separate part.

Because of, well, reasons .

1) I believe it separated once in orbit, I did model it on before realizing it was separate... the only thing is, that's obviously too short for the adapter? Does that mean it separated at multiple planes? Big if true. There might be a case where it stays attached until the backup RCS (see below) is needed, but that feels unlikely to me.

2) Well, if there were multiple configurations that's doable (I think??) using the same technique we used for the extensions on the Ranger panels. If you can't tell, I haven't gotten very far with the solars. Only problem is modeling and rigging those scissor-style mechanisms suuuuuucks.

2a) The gold RCS you see there is actually the backup "lifeboat" RCS that uses freon. Basically, if the primary attitude control failed, they'd still be able to move all the film into the capsules and orient for their reentry firings. The primary RCS pods and secondary RCS units will both be their own separate parts.

3?) the only problem is I have to bake the ambient occlusion (uh... shadowing, I guess is the simple explanation) onto the texture for those little spherical tanks... I do absolutely need to make some *even smaller* RCS tanks and solar panels though, the current "mini" ones look massive on some of the new probes I noticed...

[zakkpaz]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

Off to a good start, thanks to @Invaderchaos and @biohazard15 for acquiring that document for me.
It's actually an intensely personal and fascinating read - really get a sense of what it was like for this group of people to spend their entire careers together working on just one project!

[Guest]

Some interesting info here, in particular about the propulsion system, and how it relates to KH-11 and possibly HST service modules:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23851.20

Long story short: KH-9 was bipropellant and had one engine. KH-11 was monopropellant, with two engines on the rim. Freedom variant was either a KH-11 style setup, or a KH-9 style one with a dual engine in the center.

[biohazard15]

11 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

1) I believe it separated once in orbit, I did model it on before realizing it was separate... the only thing is, that's obviously too short for the adapter? Does that mean it separated at multiple planes? Big if true. There might be a case where it stays attached until the backup RCS (see below) is needed, but that feels unlikely to me.

2) Well, if there were multiple configurations that's doable (I think??) using the same technique we used for the extensions on the Ranger panels. If you can't tell, I haven't gotten very far with the solars. Only problem is modeling and rigging those scissor-style mechanisms suuuuuucks.

2a) The gold RCS you see there is actually the backup "lifeboat" RCS that uses freon. Basically, if the primary attitude control failed, they'd still be able to move all the film into the capsules and orient for their reentry firings. The primary RCS pods and secondary RCS units will both be their own separate parts.

3?) the only problem is I have to bake the ambient occlusion (uh... shadowing, I guess is the simple explanation) onto the texture for those little spherical tanks... I do absolutely need to make some *even smaller* RCS tanks and solar panels though, the current "mini" ones look massive on some of the new probes I noticed...

1) Some photos show this ring being used to handle the sat. For example:

It may have been designed as 2-piece assembly - top ring is attached early and is used as handling aid, while bottom one is attached in the end, and then both are left attached to Titan 2nd stage. Titan IIID for reference:

Of course, we may be wrong and the upper ring did remain on the sat, but then how the lifeboat RCS is supposed to work? Generally, it is a bad idea to obstruct RCS thruster with a curved piece of steel. Especially if it is your last RCS thruster.

56 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

Some interesting info here, in particular about the propulsion system, and how it relates to KH-11 and possibly HST service modules:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23851.20

2) Doesn't look like there were solar panel variants - that decision to add two extra segments came during design phase. So presumably all KH-9s used 11-segment arrays. As for how they were mounted or how they were extended - found that, thanks to @Dragon01's link:

Note the absence of adapter ring.

(Also, I HATE globalsecurity site. Sorry for the tiny pic - they have thumbnail, but clicking on it gives you 404.)

 

 

3) Totally yay for tiny RCS tanks, especially if smaller than the ones from Tantares. These are indeed needed - for example, to give some extra dV to a Pioneer 5-based satellite bus.

Also, saw the (projected) parts list on Discord. Any chance for a service bay w\toggleable doors that can be installed in place of mid-section assembly? The idea is to pack it with science stuff, send it in space and use RVs to recover full science points.

[Gremillion]

@CobaltWolf Much more reasonable request this time, could you tell me that the hex or RGB codes are for the two colors you're using for the Titan IV color scheme (the sort of rust red and pea green colors)? Thanks again!

[DeadJohn]

5 minutes ago, Gremillion said:

@CobaltWolf Much more reasonable request this time, could you tell me that the hex or RGB codes are for the two colors you're using for the Titan IV color scheme (the sort of rust red and pea green colors)? Thanks again!

It takes a few steps but you can find this on your own. Take a screenshot of the parts, put it online, plug it into https://imagecolorpicker.com/

Desktop software can do it with fewer steps, but I don't know what you have access to.

On the other hand, CobaltWolf seems to never sleep and will likely answer before you see my reply

[CobaltWolf]

1 hour ago, Dragon01 said:

Some interesting info here, in particular about the propulsion system, and how it relates to KH-11 and possibly HST service modules:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23851.20

Long story short: KH-9 was bipropellant and had one engine. KH-11 was monopropellant, with two engines on the rim. Freedom variant was either a KH-11 style setup, or a KH-9 style one with a dual engine in the center.

So, something I've run into - you have to be careful and pay attention to the dates for all this NRO stuff. A lot of the documents weren't declassified until AFTER those posts, for example. For what its worth, every since document I've seen says that it was all monopropellant hydrazine (with freon being used for the redundant RCS)

 

24 minutes ago, biohazard15 said:

1) Some photos show this ring being used to handle the sat. For example:

It may have been designed as 2-piece assembly - top ring is attached early and is used as handling aid, while bottom one is attached in the end, and then both are left attached to Titan 2nd stage. Titan IIID for reference:

Of course, we may be wrong and the upper ring did remain on the sat, but then how the lifeboat RCS is supposed to work? Generally, it is a bad idea to obstruct RCS thruster with a curved piece of steel. Especially if it is your last RCS thruster.

2) Doesn't look like there were solar panel variants - that decision to add two extra segments came during design phase. So presumably all KH-9s used 11-segment arrays. As for how they were mounted or how they were extended - found that, thanks to @Dragon01's link:

Note the absence of adapter ring.

(Also, I HATE globalsecurity site. Sorry for the tiny pic - they have thumbnail, but clicking on it gives you 404.)

3) Totally yay for tiny RCS tanks, especially if smaller than the ones from Tantares. These are indeed needed - for example, to give some extra dV to a Pioneer 5-based satellite bus.

Also, saw the (projected) parts list. Any chance for a service bay w\toggleable doors that can be installed in place of mid-section assembly? The idea is to pack it with science stuff, send it in space and use RVs to recover full science points.

1) I think I figured it out - the gold ring in that Titan IIID pic is the adapter. And I think the rest may have been allowed to hang down into the instrument truss? I agree the separation plane was probably the top of that gold ring.

2) Alright. I haven't looked at the solars too much as I said so I'll definitely do some digging.

3) Yeah I need to look at that. And Pioneer 5 itself probably needs to get redone.

Would the MOL cargo bay suffice for that..?

 

18 minutes ago, Gremillion said:

@CobaltWolf Much more reasonable request this time, could you tell me that the hex or RGB codes are for the two colors you're using for the Titan IV color scheme (the sort of rust red and pea green colors)? Thanks again!

3 minutes ago, DeadJohn said:

It takes a few steps but you can find this on your own. Take a screenshot of the parts, put it online, plug it into https://imagecolorpicker.com/

Desktop software can do it with fewer steps, but I don't know what you have access to.

On the other hand, CobaltWolf seems to never sleep and will likely answer before you see my reply

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have sleep issues, but usually being tired and post my ADHD medication wearing off is a bad time to try and get work done

In all seriousness, you probably would want the base colors underneath all the weathering... or not I suppose, since you might want to match to the colors as-seen.

Titan Brown: #7c5645

Titan Gold: #989288 but these areas had like... a light overlay over them.

 

[biohazard15]

22 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Would the MOL cargo bay suffice for that..?

Right, that'll do! Forgot about that. However, any chance to adding a second set of nodes to it? That would help to mount pieces like stock materials bay. Not sure how the stock drag model would like that, though.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

So, something I've run into - you have to be careful and pay attention to the dates for all this NRO stuff. A lot of the documents weren't declassified until AFTER those posts, for example. For what its worth, every since document I've seen says that it was all monopropellant hydrazine (with freon being used for the redundant RCS)

That makes sense, actually. That brings the KH-9 much closer to KH-11, then. In fact, given this, I think you could get away with using the same part for both, were you to make the latter.

In fact, I wonder, was the silver blanket on KH-11 a new thing, or did KH-9 have something similar which just isn't visible in museum exhibits? You've got that PDF, so you can probably see how they did KH-9 insulation.

[CobaltWolf]

10 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

That makes sense, actually. That brings the KH-9 much closer to KH-11, then. In fact, given this, I think you could get away with using the same part for both, were you to make the latter.

In fact, I wonder, was the silver blanket on KH-11 a new thing, or did KH-9 have something similar which just isn't visible in museum exhibits? You've got that PDF, so you can probably see how they did KH-9 insulation.

 

Of course, making MLI is for suckers...

 

13 minutes ago, biohazard15 said:

Right, that'll do! Forgot about that. However, any chance to adding a second set of nodes to it? That would help to mount pieces like stock materials bay. Not sure how the stock drag model would like that, though.

Does it not have interior nodes?

Edited January 24, 2020 by CobaltWolf

[biohazard15]

10 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Does it not have interior nodes?

From cfg I see that it should, but in-game it doesn't have any. The game is 1.8.1 with nothing except BDB and its dependencies.

EDIT: Scratch that, I'm dumb. Didn't figured out the fact that extra node appears only if you toggle the end cap. Sorry for the confusion 

Edited January 24, 2020 by biohazard15

[Probus]

@CobaltWolf, an important project that never shows up much in KSP is the Viking/Mariner program.  My uncle was a physicist at NASA Houston at the time and did a lot of work on the antennas.  He was my inspiration for my love of spaceflight.

When you look at the orbiters and landers there are some commonly used parts, but there are a lot of really different parts too.  A couple interesting models, for instance, are the 18 nozzle (x3) landing thruster system:

 

and the UHF short range antenna:

[Invaderchaos]

52 minutes ago, Probus said:

@CobaltWolf, an important project that never shows up much in KSP is the Viking/Mariner program.  My uncle was a physicist at NASA Houston at the time and did a lot of work on the antennas.  He was my inspiration for my love of spaceflight.

When you look at the orbiters and landers there are some commonly used parts, but there are a lot of really different parts too.  A couple interesting models, for instance, are the 18 nozzle (x3) landing thruster system:

 

and the UHF short range antenna:

I believe the beta version of Probes Plus has Mariner 3+ and that Viking is in the works 

[CobaltWolf]

14 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

From cfg I see that it should, but in-game it doesn't have any. The game is 1.8.1 with nothing except BDB and its dependencies.

EDIT: Scratch that, I'm dumb. Didn't figured out the fact that extra node appears only if you toggle the end cap. Sorry for the confusion 

1 hour ago, Probus said:

@CobaltWolf, an important project that never shows up much in KSP is the Viking/Mariner program.  My uncle was a physicist at NASA Houston at the time and did a lot of work on the antennas.  He was my inspiration for my love of spaceflight.

When you look at the orbiters and landers there are some commonly used parts, but there are a lot of really different parts too.  A couple interesting models, for instance, are the 18 nozzle (x3) landing thruster system:

and the UHF short range antenna:

@akron already has a (now that I'm looking at it again) fantastic Viking model (along with the orbiters) that as I understand it, still needs to be textured and such. IRL has been kicking his butt pretty hard for the last while but man, I don't think I could top this if I wanted to - and I don't feel a need to overlap with Coatl except for maybe his older work some day.

EDIT: Btw if I don't see any of you goobers make a Hexador I'll be sad.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by CobaltWolf

[Guest]

I'd be more inclined to use MOL parts if they had IVAs.  Though this does look like an interesting concept.

[CobaltWolf]

16 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

I'd be more inclined to use MOL parts if they had IVAs.  Though this does look like an interesting concept.

I await your pull request

In any case, this wouldn't need IVAs since it's not a crewed spacecraft.

[Tricky_Flash]

I just installed it for my new Career playthrough and I love the looks and the building feel of the new parts, however, I feel like this mod was created for the real solar system mod, engines give you very high Delta v than the stock parts? Can someone confirm this or am I wrong? Also I don't like the placement of the parts in the tech tree, it takes away, or even better said, dumbs down  the struggle of having limited engines and parts at the start of the playthrough in science or career mode, as well as the reward of unlocking new parts and engines.

I would much rather grind for science and unlock separate nods on the techtree than having a clutter of parts in my VAB/SPH 10 min into career.

I will continue trying all the new parts and playing around but do far I really enjoy the authenticity and the feel of the mod. Good job!

 

[CobaltWolf]

17 minutes ago, Tricky_Flash said:

I just installed it for my new Career playthrough and I love the looks and the building feel of the new parts, however, I feel like this mod was created for the real solar system mod, engines give you very high Delta v than the stock parts? Can someone confirm this or am I wrong? Also I don't like the placement of the parts in the tech tree, it takes away, or even better said, dumbs down  the struggle of having limited engines and parts at the start of the playthrough in science or career mode, as well as the reward of unlocking new parts and engines.

I would much rather grind for science and unlock separate nods on the techtree than having a clutter of parts in my VAB/SPH 10 min into career.

I will continue trying all the new parts and playing around but do far I really enjoy the authenticity and the feel of the mod. Good job!

Totally understand the feelings - BDB can feel quite a bit different than stock.

To quote the FAQ (apologies if this seems curt, I don't mean it that way it just saves me having to retype it )

Quote

The parts are really overpowered! I managed to take a Mercury Hermes to Mercury Moho.

The parts in BDB are balanced and scaled against the stock parts. Unfortunately, due to KSP's tiny solar system, that means that the rockets you build will be more powerful than their real world counterparts. For realistic balance, use something like a 2.5x to 3.2x rescale. Scaling can be accomplished via Sigma Dimensions, and scale preset configs are available through Rescale!

You could also try the incredibly awesome JNSQ, which comes natively sized at 2.7x scale and works perfectly with BDB!

(and to reiterate - the parts are exhaustively balanced to be in line with the stock parts in terms of performance)

Re: the tech tree balance, the KSP tech tree is simply too small for the number of parts. My best advice is to significantly reduce the science rewards in your difficulty options - I'm not really sure what the best level is nowadays but near the lower end. I know once or twice I tested the start of a career and was able to get it so I had to really make use of all the available parts to get the ball rolling. Having to build lunar flyby probes in the basicRocketry/Engineering101 tech level can be a fun challenge and makes playing through the early stages quite rewarding. If coupled with a system rescale, suddenly you need those upper stages and such to get to orbit much less get anywhere with more science.  

Another thought I've had during the current dev cycle (which actually greatly expands the early game parts) is this: I don't think I intend players to use all those parts on a given playthrough. Rather, I just like the idea of giving people enough options early on that the beginning of a career isn't the same every time.

Edited January 24, 2020 by CobaltWolf

[Friznit]

Playing JNSQ with 25% science rewards and CTT is a nice balance and means you have to use quite a few different rockets to achieve goals.  Add Strategia for added challenge.

[Invaderchaos]

39 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

You could also try the incredibly awesome JNSQ, which comes natively sized at 2.7x scale and works perfectly with BDB!

This reminded me of something I’ve been meaning to ask about. I’ve been doing a few mapping missions with the Keyhole vehicles on JNSQ, and usually when I try getting back to Kerbin in the reentry vehicle, the heat shield runs out of ablator. In some cases both the heat shield and parachute explode due to overheating but the reentry pod survives, only to slam into the ocean.
 

I know JNSQ’s Kerbin atmosphere is higher than stock’s, but I don’t what I’m doing wrong. Is it just my fault for having a simply too steep reentry? I’ve only been able to keep the pod from overheating by spinning after reentering at super low LKO orbits, which would usually be fine but for mapping higher orbits are necessary, as in IRL Corona’s orbit was around 160 km if I’m correct, and scansat requires and even higher orbit for better scans. Maybe there should be an option to add more ablator to the reentry heat shield with the cost of added weight?

[CobaltWolf]

4 minutes ago, Invaderchaos said:

This reminded me of something I’ve been meaning to ask about. I’ve been doing a few mapping missions with the Keyhole vehicles on JNSQ, and usually when I try getting back to Kerbin in the reentry vehicle, the heat shield runs out of ablator. In some cases both the heat shield and parachute explode due to overheating but the reentry pod survives, only to slam into the ocean.
 

I know JNSQ’s Kerbin atmosphere is higher than stock’s, but I don’t what I’m doing wrong. Is it just my fault for having a simply too steep reentry? I’ve only been able to keep the pod from overheating by spinning after reentering at super low LKO orbits, which would usually be fine but for mapping higher orbits are necessary, as in IRL Corona’s orbit was around 160 km if I’m correct, and scansat requires and even higher orbit for better scans. Maybe there should be an option to add more ablator to the reentry heat shield with the cost of added weight?

Yeah it's been noted and some people are working on it

https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/issues/759