Kerbfleet: A Jool Odyssey-END OF CHAPTER 21! (and hopefully not so many talking heads in 22!)

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Chemp said:

What does this say about the Kerbals (about us)?

(Emphasis mine)

That question, my friends, is the important one behind this entire body of work. Sci-fi and fantasy--at least, the good kind of sci-fi and fantasy--uses the freedom afforded by their unreal situations to cut deeper, and get closer, to truth than most "realistic" stories ever could. I'm sorry I made you sad, @Chemp. I was sad writing it.  

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Deddly said:

3) Gregmore's ship was actually invisible on radar and visually, even after he left the cockpit (his craft was sticking out of the missile bay at an angle that would have been visible from the Ghost's cockpit)
 

Actually (speaking here as a live player and not a dead author) I'm not so sure about that. What you saw in the strip is the actual map view: the ships were indeed close enough together that only one icon is visible. I'm sure you've all noticed this annoying "feature" whenever you have two ships in close rendezvous and want to select the other one in map mode--even mousing over doesn't always permit you to see, much less click on, the other vessel.

And as far as a visual sighting--the position of that Mk2 cockpit with its tiny windows makes it really difficult to see anything at all. And I think Gregmore's Gliido may have been obscured by the long nose of the cruiser and the bulge of upper space door assembly anyway even if the Ghost had gotten out to take a look. 

Now, of course, had it been anyone other than Gregmore the Ghost would certainly have noticed him coming in close, and actually colliding with him. But... it was Gregmore.  

 

[Deddly]

7 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

Actually (speaking here as a live player and not a dead author) I'm not so sure about that. What you saw in the strip is the actual map view: the ships were indeed close enough together that only one icon is visible. I'm sure you've all noticed this annoying "feature" whenever you have two ships in close rendezvous and want to select the other one in map mode--even mousing over doesn't always permit you to see, much less click on, the other vessel.

 

Interesting! But didn't the Glido have a plane icon instead of a capsule one? (As an interesting discussion rather than a critique)

EDIT: Oh wait... you're on an older version of KSP, aren't you. Not sure if the version you play has the plane icon.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Deddly
Light bulb

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Deddly said:

Interesting! But didn't the Glido have a plane icon instead of a capsule one? (As an interesting discussion rather than a critique)

Plane icon? What is ths 'plane icon' of which you speak? (I'm still running 1.1.3  )

[DarkOwl57]

1 hour ago, Kuzzter said:

Think what you like, but I'm alluding to a much older story than yours  ...and given the chapter title along with Shirley's "thousand years" speech, there really isn't anything else I could have called what just happened.

Ah yes, the Battle of Britain. One of my favorite WW2 stories. Well... I'll let it slide.... *Dramatic camera zoom* This time

EDIT: Could you please tell me what chapter that thousand years speech was? 

[Just Jim]

59 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

Plane icon? What is ths 'plane icon' of which you speak? (I'm still running 1.1.3  )

Planes and Comm-Sats got new icons in 1.2

[superstrijder15]

Does it mean anything special that the last 2 frames are in spoilers?

2 hours ago, Deddly said:

2) All the onookers can suddenly remember who Gregmore was (as can we readers) as well as his history with Kerbfleet

Well, he radio'ed his name like 10s before the explosion, that's so short I couldn't even not remember if I tried!

[0111narwhalz]

4 minutes ago, superstrijder15 said:

Does it mean anything special that the last 2 frames are in spoilers?

Only that Kuzz didn't want to ruin his carefully-prepared delivery.

[Zhetaan]

1 hour ago, Kuzzter said:

Think what you like, but I'm alluding to a much older story than yours  ...and given the chapter title along with Shirley's "thousand years" speech, there really isn't anything else I could have called what just happened.

And if you'll permit it, I think the best elegy for Gregmore is yet older:

 

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
Kerbin mourns for her dead across the sky.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill: Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres.
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond Kerbin's glow.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain,
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

 

I only had to change four words.  Otherwise, everything fits perfectly.  @Kuzzter, I'd say therefore that if your end was to use this story as a lens to project something important about human nature, you've succeeded admirably.

 

@Chemp:

Time to cheer you up (I hope) ....

What does it say about us that Gregmore had to die to be remembered?  That is an excellent question, but I think it focuses too much on his death and not enough on his life.  Consider this:  Gregmore has never, ever, in the entire history of his time with Kerbfleet, raised his voice in anger over people failing to remember him.  In spite of what may be horrible mistreatment--we'll get to that--by virtue of his being continually forgotten, his last act was an insistence on seeing the good in one whom he refused to see as an enemy.  Was that misguided?  Possibly--the mistake did kill him.  But it also saved Kerbin.

Let's consider another case:  Mort.

Mort is known almost solely for his pursuit of profit, but don't forget that when he unveiled his plan to recall and retire Kerbal crews, part of the reason was so he could pursue low-cost and low-risk probe exploration, instead.  He also told Bill and Jeb that he didn't want to risk losing them to Eve after Bob and Tedus.  Whether his motives emerged from a belief that Kerbal lives were valuable or only from a belief that they were expensive, the point is that it was mentioned that risk was a motivator.  Val's impassioned argument that the value of the lives is, at least in part, offset by the value of the experience of living is wholly beyond his understanding, but on the other hand, if Mort truly believed that Kerbal lives could only be measured in Funds, then one could expect him to own slaves.  Instead, though none believe him to be unilaterally good, none consider him to be inherently evil, either.  At most, he is seen as misguided, but not uncaring--doesn't that say something about us, as well?

Back on Gregmore, we have his possible horrible mistreatment.  But I'm not sure that's the case here.  After all, I think it's a stretch to say that everyone else deliberately forgot him--I may as well tell you not to think about elephants.

Really, don't think about elephants.

You're not thinking about elephants right now, are you?

Whether Gregmore projected some kind of telepathic amnesia or was simply eminently forgettable is irrelevant.  Whatever was going on, he clearly was not in control of it--this was seen by how he kept trying to get people's attention--so he had cause to be extremely frustrated and upset.  And yet we don't see that.  If anything, he had every reason to simply snap, ram his Gliido into the Ghost's missile bay with explosive force, and let out all of that pent-up frustration in one grand and unforgettable explosion.  He did not do this:  he rammed into the missile bay, yes, but not to kill his opponent.  Instead, he merely stopped his opponent and extended an offer of friendship and understanding.  He died with that offer on his lips, which shows absolutely immeasurable restraint--by rights, his forbearance alone justifies remembering him as Saint Gregmore.

I think that Gregmore happened to have a disability.  It was unusual, certainly, but that's what it amounted to be.  He refused to allow that disability to either define him or limit him, and when it came to his outlook on life, he could choose to wallow in it, or he could choose to acknowledge but surpass it.  He wasn't perfect:  the one time he chose to wallow in it, he tried to stow away aboard the Intrepid, but luckily for him, a friend came to his aid and he snapped back to himself.  His weakness was that he wanted to be remembered so much that it clouded his judgement.  The rest of the time, he surpassed the disability, even as he appeared to accept the flaws of those same friends who were limited by that disability--much like when a hearing person speaks to a Deaf person while facing the interpreter, it's rude but it's also (at least a little) understandable.  What does it say about us as the ones who were limited by, or paid too much attention to, Gregmore's particular idiosyncrasy?  It says we're not perfect.  It doesn't say we need to be perfect.

The presence of a larger-than-life hero does say that we need to be perfect.  The heroic archetype gives us inspiration by showing something that is both virtuous and larger than life, but it is impossible to reach because larger-than-life means exactly that, and if we're always looking upwards, we're never looking inwards.  This means that the hero is actually flawed by his apparent perfection, and understanding that paves the way to understanding a lot of human nature.  The heroic sacrifice, in this way, can be a sign of a permanent maturation because the death of the hero is also a sign of one's acknowledgement that while the hero's values do not die with him, the example he sets is impossible to reach.  I'll throw in another little bit that came out of Eve: Order Zero, spoken by Newdun Kerman:  'Sure, a hero that's some kind of super-kerbal can be a lot of fun.  It's an escape, yeah.  But the real heroes are the ordinary kerbs who find a way to do extra-ordinary things.'  To wit, there was a time when we, as children, considered our parents to be perfect.  Later on, we come to understand that our parents are people, often deeply flawed, but usually trying their best to make something good out of what they've been given.  The fact that we know that the lessons came from flawed teachers doesn't invalidate their truth:  it's still nice to share, you should always say 'please' and 'thank you', and you're not going to make a new friend unless you're willing to get out of the Gliido and extend the offer.  Does Gregmore count as an impossible hero or a realistic hero?  I'll let you decide that for yourself.

So yes, it took Gregmore's death to make people remember him.  That says some pretty awful things.  But on the other hand, even though the cost was terrible and tragic, he is remembered.  Perhaps the Kerbals will forget him again, and if so, then maybe they are, at their core, irredeemable.  But that hasn't happened yet, and so I think the lesson here is that if you want to prevent such tragedies in your own life, the most I think we can do is get out of the Gliido, hope for the best, and find a way to do extra-ordinary things.

[Just Jim]

5 minutes ago, Zhetaan said:

And if you'll permit it, I think the best elegy for Gregmore is yet older:

Crap... I just ran out of likes... and this really deserves one!  

[Cydonian Monk]

While I'm wont to wax poetic on the matter, I won't and will instead wane: I for one will miss Gregmore Kerman, Junior Looty. He was a good kerbal and one of many names. 

It was a good death*. Well written.

 

37 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Crap... I just ran out of likes... and this really deserves one!  

I gave it one for you. (Or something.) Cheers!

 

7 hours ago, Brent Kerman said:

<bag o pipes snipped>

I didn't realize they kept cats on the ISS. Interesting experimemt, that. 

 

*Assuming old Grilmyre is dead, that is.

[obney kerman]

We will mourn the loss of greg... something.

[TotallyNotHuman]

7 hours ago, DarkOwl57 said:

chances are they'll forget you about a week from now

2 hours ago, obney kerman said:

greg... something.

NO.

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by TotallyNotHuman_

[SpaceplaneAddict]

Hmm.

2 kerbals M.I.A, Shirley, and Gregmore Kerman(s?)
1 Kerbulan out of action, the dude that got blwon away, extinguished from combat.
1 Kerbulan M.I.A

They never found the bodies, which works both ways. Gregmore (s) may still be alive, as well as Shirley, albeit injured as *No need to go into that vocabulary*.

Well done Kuzzter. Definitely your most emotional ending yet...

Rest in peace, our Hero of the Battle of Kerbin... 

[Chemp]

16 hours ago, Kuzzter said:

I'm sorry I made you sad, @Chemp. I was sad writing it.  

No need to be sorry. You awoke feelings in your readers, that makes you a good writer. First time that this happens to me while reading a comic, to be honest. Kudos

12 hours ago, Zhetaan said:

[...]

So yes, it took Gregmore's death to make people remember him.  That says some pretty awful things.  But on the other hand, even though the cost was terrible and tragic, he is remembered.  Perhaps the Kerbals will forget him again, and if so, then maybe they are, at their core, irredeemable.  But that hasn't happened yet, and so I think the lesson here is that if you want to prevent such tragedies in your own life, the most I think we can do is get out of the Gliido, hope for the best, and find a way to do extra-ordinary things.

I agree with you about Gregmore. He is a hero in his own, unassuming way and he will be remembered.

Ignore the following spoiler if you're not in the mood for gloomy rambling.

Spoiler

What troubles me is this: We humans erect memorials for those who have died defending a cause, be it soldiers, martyrs or revolutionaries. We feel that we owe it to them, to honor their deed and to remember the ideal they fought for. The pacifist in me abhors the fact that they had to go to this extreme and the rationalist sometimes wonders if the human being really is intelligent (take this comparatively harmless example: 1991!).
Gegmore's fate is the other side of that coin: He was ignored even though his deeds were often noteworthy. Then he did an extremely brave thing by blocking the Ghost. He might not have been fully aware of the risks he was taking but it is courageous none the less to reason with somebody as violent as the Ghost. Still, he failed to be acknowledged by anyone except Sam. It was not until he sacrificed himself that he started to exist in the Kerbals' minds. It is difficult for me to put in words what this triggers inside me, maybe also because English is not my first language but it is a feeling that doesn't sit well with me.

That said, I know that this is not the message Kuzzter wants to convey but only my pessimistic mind that tends to see the dark side of things. I guess I had hoped that Gregmore would be able to turn things around.

I also agree with what you wrote about Mort and I suspect that even the Kerbulans are not inherently evil. But only Kuzzter will tell.

Thank you Kuzzter, for creating this story. I look forward to see what aces are still up your sleeve.

[TopHeavy11]

rip in pepperonis gregmore

"insert sad airhorn song here"

[NotAgain]

19 hours ago, Zhetaan said:

The most I think we can do is get out of the Gliido, hope for the best, and find a way to do extra-ordinary things.

I think that I've just found myself a new life motto.

@Kuzzter, I just felt more emotion about anything that's happened in a couple of years. This either says something awful about me, or great about you. You can decide that one.

[Just Jim]

3 minutes ago, NotAgain said:

I just felt more emotion about anything that's happened in a couple of years. This either says something awful about me, or great about you. You can decide that one.

It's not you... I think we all felt it.  

That's why @Kuzzter is the best.

[DarkOwl57]

3 hours ago, TopHeavy11 said:

rip in pepperonis gregmore

"insert sad airhorn song here"

 

[Alchemist]

6 hours ago, Chemp said:

Ignore the following spoiler if you're not in the mood for gloomy rambling.

  Hide contents

What troubles me is this: We humans erect memorials for those who have died defending a cause, be it soldiers, martyrs or revolutionaries. We feel that we owe it to them, to honor their deed and to remember the ideal they fought for. The pacifist in me abhors the fact that they had to go to this extreme and the rationalist sometimes wonders if the human being really is intelligent (take this comparatively harmless example: 1991!).
Gegmore's fate is the other side of that coin: He was ignored even though his deeds were often noteworthy. Then he did an extremely brave thing by blocking the Ghost. He might not have been fully aware of the risks he was taking but it is courageous none the less to reason with somebody as violent as the Ghost. Still, he failed to be acknowledged by anyone except Sam. It was not until he sacrificed himself that he started to exist in the Kerbals' minds. It is difficult for me to put in words what this triggers inside me, maybe also because English is not my first language but it is a feeling that doesn't sit well with me.

That said, I know that this is not the message Kuzzter wants to convey but only my pessimistic mind that tends to see the dark side of things. I guess I had hoped that Gregmore would be able to turn things around.

I agree, there are some not very rational (and maybe even very irrational) things when it comes to the level of collective consciousness...

Spoiler

But what else you would expect from anything driven by evolutionary methods? Evolution's only strategist is natural selection. Fortunately, on the level of social constructs it doesn't have to cause deaths of the people involved in the wrong thing, but old ideologies not going down without a fight still tend to cause too much damage.
And the problem with this evolutionary model is also that a social construct's success is largely measured by its stability, and the easiest way to ensure that is just to dismiss (and actively oppose, if dismissing doesn't help) anything that doesn't fit, even if it would be beneficial.
And then there is another glitchy rule of interaction between individual and collective level: "anything is worth as much as somebody is willing to give for it". And here comes the effect that somebody willing to pay the ultimate price is the most powerful trigger for reevaluation. And it's still a double-edged sword: this kind of fanaticism can be used for wrong things almost as effectively. And too much reliance on this mechanism only makes it more difficult to achieve anything by any other means.
Really, as some psychologists say, human is more of not rational but rationalizing creature, that is making up reasonable explanations after the choice has been made. Just why can't we rely on logic and reason when it really matters, not afterwards?

Let's hope that this example will reassure the Kerbals that nothing really good ever comes of trying to achieve something by violence. And yet remind them that you need an efficient way to prevent such tragedies when somebody tries anything this irrational, because dismissing the very possibility of violence is what makes the violence effective

[1101]

1 hour ago, Alchemist said:

Let's hope that this example will reassure the Kerbals that nothing really good ever comes of trying to achieve something by violence. And yet remind them that you need an efficient way to prevent such tragedies when somebody tries anything this irrational, because dismissing the very possibility of violence is what makes the violence effective

So.... something similar to Special Circumstances in the Culture Novels by Iain M. Banks?  Where the in setting view on warfare with the Culture is just the plain and simple warning 'Don't (BLEEP) with the Culture!'

 

But where will Kerbfleet get the expertise to make that happen? That being said, without the militant forces of Kerbulus so far there might be only peaceful beings in Kuzzter's Universe.

[GDJ]

Sorry for the delay in gratifying the last chapter with praises and lauded congratulations, but great job.....and Gregmore will live forever.....as Hero of Kerbin forever.

He went out with his boots on.

[Sanic]

RIP Gregmore.

F

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Sanic

[The solid fuel chemist]

through action, man becomes hero.

through death, hero becomes legend.

through time, legend becomes myth.

Inspired by myth, a man Takes Action!

Rest in peace Gregmore, and may your sacrifice be remembered.

[cratercracker]

Pres "x" to pay respect