WW2 BAD-T 2 - BDA AI Dogfight Tournament [SEMIFINALS]

[pyrosheep]

3 hours ago, gridghost said:

 

I checked on some stats for the F-22 and the F-35 and the SFC of the Panther actually have realistic SFC, although most of the fighters in KSP tends to weigh (a lot) less then half of a real jet. 

F-22 when kitted and fueled weighs in at about 30 tonnes (2 x 160 kN engines), and the F-35 weights about 22.5 tonnes (1 x 190 kN engine), the F-16 and Mig-29(a small plane in comparison) weighs 12 tonnes on a 120 kN engine. 

The weight of my heavy fighter w. 8 missiles, a cannon and about 600 units of fuel is 12 tonnes, and sports two panthers on 60% thrust (204 kN) and this is without any use of KJR.

So while the engine is somewhat realistic the weight of the parts are not.

That is a very low fuel fraction, 600 units of fuel only weigh 2.5 tons.  

Both the F-22 and F-35 carry around 8.3 tons of internal fuel fully loaded (the F-35 is a bit of an anomaly because the design has allot of space for fuel), the F-16 and Mig-29 carry 3.5 tons, the F-15C carries 6.1 tons, the Su-27 carries 9.4.

Stock engines are definitely much more efficient than IRL ones 

Parts aren't too bad for weight on average, the problem is that people tend to build their jets way too small in KSP because they don't have the same design constraints as in real life: An F-22 is 18 meters long, an Su-27 is 22 meters long (an orange tank is 7.5m long). These design constraints are mainly space for the engines/intake airflow and space for fuel.

This isn't to say that there aren't problems with individual part weights (and sizes), the most obvious is the cockpit, which weighs far too much at over 1 ton, this creates craft balancing problems. The cockpit is also much too wide; the cockpit of fighter aircraft can have up to half the minimum diameter of the Mk-1 in line (I really hope someone will create a mod for a 0.625 cockpit with a large bubble canopy, SXT has a Cessna style 0.625 cockpit).     

Edit: Just use this ,Stock it has the F404 (Gripen/F-18), F110 (F-16/F-15) and the TV AL-31 Saturn (Flanker family). 

Edited March 23, 2016 by pyrosheep
a link

[Pds314]

6 hours ago, gridghost said:

 

I checked on some stats for the F-22 and the F-35 and the SFC of the Panther actually have realistic SFC, although most of the fighters in KSP tends to weigh (a lot) less then half of a real jet. 

F-22 when kitted and fueled weighs in at about 30 tonnes (2 x 160 kN engines), and the F-35 weights about 22.5 tonnes (1 x 190 kN engine), the F-16 (a small plane in comparison) weighs 12 tonnes on a 120 kN engine. 

The weight of my heavy fighter w. 8 missiles, a cannon and about 600 units of fuel is 12 tonnes, and sports two panthers on 60% thrust (204 kN) and this is without any use of KJR.

So while the engine is somewhat realistic the weight of the parts are not.

No. I'm pretty sure that the F-135 engine has 2 Hr^-1 at full AB and 0.8 Hr^-1 in cruise. Compare to 0.9 on full afterburner and like 0.4 in cruise.

 

I.e. Panther on afterburner is comparably efficient to F-135 not on afterburner. Panther not on afterburner is comparably efficient to older high-bypass engines. Both are better than The Concorde Olympus.

 

Edit: checked specs:

                    F135        J-404.    F-404

Mass:         1700        1200      996

Diameter:   1.20         1.25       0.88

Length:       5.6          N/A        4.0

Thrust(dry):125        85           47.1

Thrust(wet):190       130         71.1

ISP(dry):     4063     9000       4220

ISP(wet):    1846     4000       1946

 

So the SFC is definitely too high. No real afterburning turbofan gets anything close to 4000 ISP wet, and the only "fighter" I can think of with an engine that gets on the order of 9000 ISP is the A-10, with its TF-34 that has 9700 s of ISP, better than some airliner engines.. Which is why the CF34 civilian variant is used as an airliner engine.

 

What I've seen seems to indicate that no afterburning turbofans exist with either 2500 s or more ISP wet, or 6500 s or more dry. The Panther has about double the ISP it should, as do all the other stock engines besides the J-33 and the J-90, both of which have implausibly high thrust for their size. ( The TF34 is almost exactly mk1-sized, but generates just 35% the thrust. In fairness, it weighs 50% as much. In comparison, the latest iteration of the CFM56 generates almost exactly the thrust of the J-33, but weighs 50% more, and is about twice the outer area.) The reality is that a 1.25m jet with 10600 s ISP doesn't have a chance in Hell of generating 120 kN. Probably more like 60 or so.

 

So a realistic fighter on full afterburner attaining a supersonic L/D of 5 would need to generate 1/5th its weight in thrust to fly, meaning that a 20-tonne fighter would need 40 kN of thrust. That's about 2 kg/s of fuel flow, which means that 2 tonnes of fuel gives it a flight time of a bit over 1000 s. 1000s at 800 m/s is, unsurprisingly, 800 kilometers. If the fighter is instead at 500 m/s supercruising with an L/D of 8, it will only need 25 kN, and will have a burn rate of 0.56 kg/s, giving it a flight time of an hour and an 1800 km range.

By comparison, The panther yields DOUBLE those values.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Pds314

[gridghost]

I stand corrected  thank you for clearing this up, i jumbled the terminology.

[DoctorDavinci]

@tetryds - it's an older 970

Turns out ist kaput ... I yanked it after discovering that she's a wee bit long in the tooth and not working right so I'm on to using the onboard Radeon which is actually giving me slightly better performance if you can wrap your noggin around that lol

So yeah, no visual mods for the time being but I can still run tier 2

 

 

[tetryds]

That is good enough, don't worry about it

I expect to be done reviewing all airplanes today.

[TangerineSedge]

4 minutes ago, tetryds said:

I expect to be done reviewing all airplanes today.

Yay! We can start to see results then soon^TM I hope

[tetryds]

Yes, I plan to start this weekend.

Also, there are some REALLY GOOD LOOKING airplanes, wow.

[BahamutoD]

I'm working on a mode for CameraTools that keeps two vessels in the frame, called "DogfightMode".

If you're interested, I'll try to get it online before the weekend.

 

 

 

Edit: another video

 

Edited March 24, 2016 by BahamutoD

[TangerineSedge]

Wow, that looks absolutely amazing there @BahamutoD, and I can't wait to see those dogfights, it sounds like it could be interesting with the amazing designs and camera work

[tetryds]

Nice camera mod, no need to hurry, I can use it when it's ready.

Also, just finished reviewing all airplanes!

[KamikazeF0X]

Mmh two flying wings! Neat ^^

I'm the one with the most front-swept wings! ^^

There is some huge beasts! The down-left one, the double-beam plane, the center one and this huge flying wing on the right

I wonder how the CoL and CoM are for those flying wings! Those engines on the back must be very heavy! 

Edited March 24, 2016 by KamikazeF0X

[tetryds]

Here is another one, better for comparing the sizes:

[MightyDarkStar]

1 hour ago, tetryds said:

Here is another one, better for comparing the sizes:

Jeez, I knew my plane was large but for a single-engined fighter mine seems to have the largest wingspan... @tetryds how did she perform?

Also, there are some extremely out-of the box and creative designs here, I mean @ferram4 your asymmetric monster looks beautifully deadly.

[tetryds]

@MightyDarkStar since we have so many submissions I cannot keep track of the players who submitted each airplane, so I don't really know what is yours
But I think it's the bottom right one, in which case I cannot really tell, it was reviewed after I started skipping the test dummy proof (all of these airplanes seem to be well made so that was not really necessary).

@everybody:
I will create the tournament tree, and will use the names of the vessels, also for discretion purposes, feel free to let others know which is yours if you wish.
At 28 submissions I am considering getting other 4 airplanes to join the battle, I have 1 test prototype, 1 test that ferram4 made to play around and the dummy (an improved version of it), would only have to make one more random one.
What do you think? 32 airplanes is a round number for the tournament tree, would make everything a lot easier, but it's ok to go with legit players only submissions too.

[DoctorDavinci]

Go for 32 ... like you said, its a nice round number for the competition

However, may I suggest you allow Pds314's late entry to be the extra plane you need?

 

[tetryds]

@DoctorDavinci: Yes, I am counting with his submission, you can see it on the screenshot.
There is only a problem that I need to fix, as you may notice on the second picture, with the propeller resizing after reload, which I expect to fix.

Well, I reserved the right to make the airplanes fit the rules, since there are so many, and we often forget something, so here are the changes that had to be made:

@MightyDarkStar: Increased wing thickness.

@Bob_Saget54: Removed kerbal loader.

@BahamutoD: Added antenna, removed stock BDArmory modules.

@damowang2: Added antenna, increased wing thickness, reaction wheels off.

@crashsolo36: Added antenna, increased wing thickness, reaction wheels off.

@alp3r: Added antenna, removed ring antenna, reaction wheels off.

@ferram4: Removed ring antenna.

@TheSpaceManiac: Removed ring antenna, reaction wheels off.

@JagerVonSmith: Reaction wheels off.

@Pds314: Removed ball antenna.

 

About wing thickness: The rule stated that reasonably sized wings must have thickness above 0.120, this does not mean that you can have 0.080 wingtips with thicker wing roots.
Because of that, I increased the thickness of the wingtips of any reasonably sized wing to fit the rules, this does not affect the aircraft performance, I also made sure to fix the thickness of control surfaces behind it.

About adding antenna: I added an Aviator Arsenal antenna to the craft, then ported over all parameters and removed stock BDArmory modules. This is for two reasons:
First, the stock modules are too big, and can get killed more easily with random hits, the antenna can also get killed but the chance is the same for every airplane.
Second, it both saves 1 part on the part count and makes everything a bit more standardized.

About reaction wheels: I simply turned them off, this can affect the performance, think about that as a minor punishment.

About removed antennas: A module that was present on the ring antenna had to be added on the AI antenna, having two of the same module on a craft is never a good idea so I had to remove it.
The ball antenna has a radar, which was a bit unfair for this tournament, removal of these antennas should not affect the performance much as they are very light.

I did not find any malicious rule breaking, nor anything like that, good job everyone, your crafts are amazing.
It's normal to forget one or another thing when building, that's why I took time to fix them myself, now it's fair for everyone.

[pyrosheep]

Oh man, i just figured out an easy way to make my design even more manoeuvrable, oh well.   

[Wjolcz]

Hah! Awesome planes everybody! You can see my flying wing in the front with the neon green leading edges and a tons of sweep. And holy crap, it took so much time to balance it out. There were at least 50 versions of it. It's performance is rather mediocre, but all I wanted to do is to prove that a pure flying wing can compete with standard monoplanes. And let's hope it does.

[luftein]

1 hour ago, Veeltch said:

I wanted to do is to prove that a pure flying wing can compete with standard monoplanes. And let's hope it does.

We're two in making mediocre flying wings to prove it's superiority ^^

[MarvinCZ]

Wow, they look gorgeous.

I just realized mine is one of the smaller planes here. How did I manage to make it so damn heavy? It's the white one with red accents in front of the rear flying wing.

[tetryds]

Haha, yeah, I am even surprised we managed to get two flying wings in there.
I'm putting three prototypes together now, but will need approval before I throw them into the competition, they are not really meant to win, but definitely not dummies.

I also realized that everybody was kinda forced to use the inline cockpit or an open cockpit, I will try to provide a wider variety of cockpits next time, with better weight values than the inline one.

Another thing is the weapons used, a large variety of combinations is present, I am glad that there was at least one airplane with 7mms only 

But I am sad that there was no 40mm derpcannon, I will have to make one myself.

[Van Disaster]

BahamutoD: that's awesome! I've been looking for that sort of camera for months.

Good luck everyone!

[DoctorDavinci]

From what I can see it looks like I have the smallest heavy bomber (in front and to the left of the rear flying wing)

Looks like this is gonna be an awesome competition ... Especially with the locations our esteemed tetryds has put together for us to fight in (unfortunately everyone has to wait to find out where the locations are as I am sworn to secrecy until after the competition)

On another note - I have started testing and optimizing my system for the competition and surprisingly have next to no lag at 1280x720 whilst recording and having the Kerbinside BAD-T as well as the competition mods installed. Unfortunately my 970 ist kaput but my onboard Radeon is holding its own without visual mods so we should have some great fights to watch for tier 2 ... testing continues

[BahamutoD]

Alrighty, Camera Tools update is out.

Looking forward to the fights!

[SuicidalInsanity]

That is an impressive lineup of planes, can't wait to see how they perform.

2 hours ago, tetryds said:

But I am sad that there was no 40mm derpcannon, I will have to make one myself.

...I knew i should have entered my 75mm howitzer armed plane. Oh well, perhaps next time.