[1.2] Galileo's Planet Pack (development thread) [v0.9]

[JadeOfMaar]

Yep. I bet the guys already playing Career in this have met the new horror of nailing the runway on return from a mission. I doubt I can hope to ever succeed once at that. I'm quite content just to not collide with terrain scatter on touchdown. XD

19 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

I think a lot more of the numbers are going to change than what I originally thought.  Sorry about that.

It's fine. No need to apologize. By the way. Apart from luminosity, what makes Ciro different from stock Sun? I've considered adding some kerb personality to its description and maybe I can squeeze these differences in.

Spoiler

Galileo and his eeeevil tangible scatters. Curse you! xD; But hey, I welcome that challenge, that additional subtle difference between Gael and Kerbin.

 

[Jiraiyah]

1 hour ago, OhioBob said:

Changing both g_o and surface gravity is what Squad has done with stock KSP (versions 1.2 and 1.2.1 respectively).  But that's a game that's been out for years and has been played by thousands of people.  Users have gotten use to certain values that Squad apparently wanted to keep in place.  GPP is a new mod still in development that hasn't seen wide circulation yet.  So to what are we being 100% accurate?  To so made up numbers that we have the freedom to change at will?   It's true that things like geosynchronous distances are a smidgeon different now than they were when we started out in KSP 1.1.3, but that doesn't mean either value is better than the other.  The difference is insignificant and it will have virtually no affect on gameplay.  I just know that when I look at the info panel in the Tracking Station I'd rather see that Gael's gravity equals 1 g then see that it equals 1.00034160493135 g.  The difference that makes in the geosynchronous distance is less than 400 meters.

I'm not against about anything you said, in my previous post i just shown the result for you so that you can make better decisions faster. as you said, if i would want to play stock with exact kerbin specifics, why would i choose a mod pack that replaces kerbin with something else that is a little different, even tbh, i wouldn't mind more gross changes compared to kerbin, so if you ask me, i agree that seeing g=1 is more appealing compared to that crazy number, if we all agree, then i will get back to original data we had and only change the 9.81 to the new number? or should we even keep that one? i don't know if that number is internal to ksp and can we change it or should we go with the new number, that is why i asked. long story short, i agree with g=1 and question is that 9.81 to be set in my sheet.

by the way, does anyone know how those calculators for planetary transfer window work? i still have room in my sheet and really don't mind having one of them here. i have this (calculating dV for changing orbit without changing inclination):

and this (calculating the whole dV for changing orbit AND inclination):

but i am afraid, both cases are working only within the limit of SOI, so, calculating the phase and total dV for between planetary, how to do it?

[OhioBob]

25 minutes ago, Jiraiyah said:

I'm not against about anything you said, in my previous post i just shown the result for you so that you can make better decisions faster. as you said, if i would want to play stock with exact kerbin specifics, why would i choose a mod pack that replaces kerbin with something else that is a little different, even tbh, i wouldn't mind more gross changes compared to kerbin, so if you ask me, i agree that seeing g=1 is more appealing compared to that crazy number, if we all agree, then i will get back to original data we had and only change the 9.81 to the new number? or should we even keep that one? i don't know if that number is internal to ksp and can we change it or should we go with the new number, that is why i asked. long story short, i agree with g=1 and question is that 9.81 to be set in my sheet.

by the way, does anyone know how those calculators for planetary transfer window work? i still have room in my sheet and really don't mind having one of them here. i have this (calculating dV for changing orbit without changing inclination):

and this (calculating the whole dV for changing orbit AND inclination):

but i am afraid, both cases are working only within the limit of SOI, so, calculating the phase and total dV for between planetary, how to do it?

The only reason I was using 9.81 previously was because that was internal to KSP.  It always should have been 9.80665, I'm glad Squad has now changed it.  Your spreadsheet should now use 9.80665.  Once I've updated everything, I can help you make sure that your spreadsheets include all the correct numbers.  Right now I'm not entirely sure what will change.  I just have to rework everything and figure it out.

[JadeOfMaar]

30 minutes ago, Jiraiyah said:

as you said, if i would want to play stock with exact kerbin specifics, why would i choose a mod pack that replaces kerbin with something else that is a little different, even tbh, i wouldn't mind more gross changes compared to kerbin,

That was among the earliest discussions actually. Gael could have turned out drastically different...

Spoiler

Tellumo as the homeworld for example..... Shhh!

But anticipating that a lot of players will jump on this mod...and then eventually complain (or just be quietly frustrated) about how much they have to change all their craft to operate on Gael, it was quickly decided to make Gael very Kerbin-like.

 

40 minutes ago, Jiraiyah said:

but i am afraid, both cases are working only within the limit of SOI, so, calculating the phase and total dV for between planetary, how to do it?

I use Transfer Window Planner for that.

[Jiraiyah]

5 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

That was among the earliest discussions actually. Gael could have turned out drastically different...

  Hide contents

Tellumo as the homeworld for example..... Shhh!

But anticipating that a lot of players will jump on this mod...and then eventually complain (or just be quietly frustrated) about how much they have to change all their craft to operate on Gael, it was quickly decided to make Gael very Kerbin-like.

 

I use Transfer Window Planner for that.

hmm i have an idea although i am not sure if it's possible or not, how about, let people choose what is the home planet on the creation of a new game? so sometimes you can play with gael as home planet and sometimes with Tellumo or any other habitable planet?

about transfer window planer, i just gave it a try few days ago, well, i could get the total dV but some stuff made me confused, for example, i would prefer a graphical representation of angle between home planet and the target with ciro in the center of that angle, stuff like that, but i am a big noob so~~

[JadeOfMaar]

TWP mod will show you the phase angle around the active planet but idk about showing angles with Ciro at the center. I think Precise Maneuver mod dos it but that's only available for 1.1.3 as far as I know.

Freedom of homeworld choice would be interesting (I tried the Alien Space Program mod to develop my still absent Eve engineering skill) but then there's possibly the issue of replacing the homeworld itself in Kerbin's/Gael's orbit to avoid problems with the game's calendar (and leaving the alternate planet's orbit empty-- a huge gap between two orbits). If that's not a problem it'll be easy to flip a switch in all the planets' cfgs and put them in a separate zip inside the main download-- extract and replace the one you want.

But it may be too early in this mod's life to take that option seriously, imo... (Well, for the public, anyway. Privately is another matter)

Edited November 2, 2016 by JadeOfMaar

[OhioBob]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 1:49 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

Apart from luminosity, what makes Ciro different from stock Sun?

Ciro is actually quite a bit different from the stock sun.  Main sequence stars follow specific mass-luminosity-radius relationships.  The stock sun really doesn't follow these relationships, most specifically its radius (which is way too big).  I tried to make Ciro much more lifelike by making sure its physical characteristics were consistent with real life stars (accounting, of course, for the fact that celestial bodies in KSP are scaled down by factors of 0.1 radius and 0.01 mass).  I also had to make sure that Gael received the correct amount of illumination (1360 W/m²) while maintaining an orbital period of 426 days (to match the built-in calendar).  So Ciro had to have the right mass and luminosity and Gael had to be the right distance away to produce the right conditions, while at the same time the standard stellar mass-luminosity-radius relationships had to be preserved.  Through iteration I was able derived Ciro's properties and Gael's semimajor axis to make sure that everything was internally consistent and lifelike.

With the new g_o value I'm going to have to reproduce those computation (fortunately I still have the spreadsheet).  It's likely Ciro's properties and Gael's semimajor axis may change a little bit, but I'm sure the change will be so small that no one will really notice a difference.  Below are the differences between the stock sun and Ciro's current properties (which might change a little).

(UPDATE)  We've decided to factor Ciro's surface gravity to account for the KSP 1.2 change in the value of g_o.  This keeps Ciro's other physical properties the same, while also maintaining the orbital parameters of the planets.  This change is reflected in properties given below.

Sun (Kerbol)
Radius = 261,600 km
Mass = 1.757E+28 kg
Gravitational parameter = 1.172E+18 m³/s²
Surface gravity = 1.74685 g
Luminosity = 5.672E+25 W (based on given radius and temperature), 3.161E+24 W (based on solar constant at Kerbin)
Effective temperature = 5840 K (given), 2837 K (based on radius and solar constant at Kerbin)
Spectral class = presumed G type, but too many inconsistencies to tell from physical properties

Ciro
Radius = 70,980 km
Mass = 1.911E+28 kg
Gravitational parameter = 1.275E+18 m³/s²
Surface gravity = 25.808813 g
Luminosity = 3.342E+24 W
Effective temperature = 5524 K
Spectral class = about G6

If we factor Ciro up to life-sized dimensions, it's has a slightly larger radius than our own sun, but is less massive and less luminous.  A life-sized Ciro has 1.02 solar radii, 0.96 solar masses, and 0.87 solar luminosities.

(edit)  Note that the information panel in the Tracking Station is currently showing Ciro's temperature as 5840 K.  This is because temperature falls under the atmosphere node, and Ciro's atmosphere node is disabled because it is generating a visual artifact around the sun (personally, I find the artifact only mildly annoying).  Therefore the atmospheric properties are defaulting to those of the template, which is the stock sun with a temperature of 5840 K.

Edited November 7, 2016 by OhioBob

[Jiraiyah]

52 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

TWP mod will show you the phase angle around the active planet but idk about showing angles with Ciro at the center. I think Precise Maneuver mod dos it but that's only available for 1.1.3 as far as I know.

Freedom of homeworld choice would be interesting (I tried the Alien Space Program mod to develop my still absent Eve engineering skill) but then there's possibly the issue of replacing the homeworld itself in Kerbin's/Gael's orbit to avoid problems with the game's calendar (and leaving the alternate planet's orbit empty-- a huge gap between two orbits). If that's not a problem it'll be easy to flip a switch in all the planets' cfgs and put them in a separate zip inside the main download-- extract and replace the one you want.

But it may be too early in this mod's life to take that option seriously, imo... (Well, for the public, anyway. Privately is another matter)

well, what i had in mind was not a replacement of configs, but an option in the game to tell that hey this new game that i am creating, put this planet as home planet and hey in that game that i am creating put that planet as home planet. I don't care if the calculations for orbital delta V map would change now, because, if i want an easier time, i would use gael as home planet, but at the same time, i would have an option to have a second save in the same game structure, to have for example tellumo as home planet and have a big challenge for myself.

[JadeOfMaar]

@OhioBob I remember the artifact. I figure it fairly negligible too, but not as much. It's sad that it has to be this way: Ciro presenting a false temperature, but everything that really matters works. In the case of stock Sun, "yellow sub-giant" comes to mind.

@Jiraiyah That would be pretty awesome, a stockified Alien Space Program. Maybe such game features will come in KSP 2.0? One can hope.

[ProtoJeb21]

@OhioBob @JadeOfMaar @Jiraiyah Do you guys need help with any additional needed calculations?

[OhioBob]

Just now, ProtoJeb21 said:

@OhioBob @JadeOfMaar @Jiraiyah Do you guys need help with any additional needed calculations?

As for me, I think I have it covered.  My part in this mod was to set all the physical, orbital, and atmospheric parameters for the celestial bodies.  I've got all that in a spreadsheet, so it's actually easy to change things.  Thanks for the offer though.  I can't speak for the other guys.

[JadeOfMaar]

@ProtoJeb21 I think we could use some help. Part of the reason for all this math atm is to expedite the completion of a dV map.

See this post for the image:

 

 

[OhioBob]

53 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@ProtoJeb21 I think we could use some help. Part of the reason for all this math atm is to expedite the completion of a dV map.

See this post for the image:

 

Ah, I forgot about the dV map.  I've got a start on it but there is still much to do (what I've do so far is just the easy part).  @ProtoJeb21, yes, that is probably something you could help with.  I don't have time to discuss it now, but perhaps tomorrow.  I'm sure I can complete it myself but if there is anything you can do to help expedite the process, it would be helpful.  Have ever done one before?  I'm using an existing one as a guide and I've tried to back-engineer some of the numbers, but I'm not always coming up with the same values.  Even if you don't do any of the math, just being available to answer some questions might help.

[ProtoJeb21]

47 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

Ah, I forgot about the dV map.  I've got a start on it but there is still much to do (what I've do so far is just the easy part).  @ProtoJeb21, yes, that is probably something you could help with.  I don't have time to discuss it now, but perhaps tomorrow.  I'm sure I can complete it myself but if there is anything you can do to help expedite the process, it would be helpful.  Have ever done one before?  I'm using an existing one as a guide and I've tried to back-engineer some of the numbers, but I'm not always coming up with the same values.  Even if you don't do any of the math, just being available to answer some questions might help.

I haven't done any equations exactly relating to Delta-V consumption and dV maps. However, I do know how to calculate the Hills Spheres of planets and moons as well as orbital periods of objects. I'll probably need the masses and semi-major axes of each individual object for my calculations. Shoot me a PM when you get the chance (we don't want any spoilers from the mod ).

[Jiraiyah]

6 hours ago, ProtoJeb21 said:

I haven't done any equations exactly relating to Delta-V consumption and dV maps. However, I do know how to calculate the Hills Spheres of planets and moons as well as orbital periods of objects. I'll probably need the masses and semi-major axes of each individual object for my calculations. Shoot me a PM when you get the chance (we don't want any spoilers from the mod ).

the mas and semi major are in the pdf in download file, although i'll give u my sheet that has the sma by calculation, for gael it is more accurate than the pdf the masses didn't change but some other parts did,if you see a number in my sheet that is different than the pdf, use mine

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ixh3gmptxyssn4z/Planet Details.ods?dl=0

[OhioBob]

6 hours ago, ProtoJeb21 said:

However, I do know how to calculate the Hills Spheres of planets and moons as well as orbital periods of objects.

I've got all that figured out already.

[OhioBob]

@Jiraiyah, the following post includes all the updated properties:

Note that the surface gravities (measured in g) haven't changed, so as long as you use g_o = 9.80665 m/s² to compute the gravitational parameters, you should be good (at least I hope that's the case).  The one exception is Ciro, whose surface gravity is now 25.8088134072288 g.

 

 

 

[JadeOfMaar]

The last of the dossiers for the parent planets, and #14 of 26 total images.

ICARUS

Spoiler

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by JadeOfMaar

[eddiew]

*spies Tellumo on the map view* 

*notices 1.9g and 10atm pressure* 

Tease   Is a return from here even possible with stock tech? Feels like it needs scramjets or balloons. Hmm, balloons...

 

Also, not sure if it's something with just my install, but I can't click on anything outside of Tellumo in the map view... I have to shift-tab and go backwards from Icarus to get to them.

Also also @JadeOfMaar, is there a single place where all the dossiers thus far are available? Looking forward to the completed set  

Also also also, subtly paging @5thHorseman because this pack looks like the sort of 'new and different' thing he might enjoy, seeing as he's conquered everything that stock can throw at him  

[JadeOfMaar]

@eddiew Yes. Tellumo is a tease. You have to build for Eve to handle it. But the fact that air engines work and the atmosphere is half Eve's height provides quite a lot of mercy for the high gee. sadly I can't help with the Map view problem and Galileo's away until tomorrow.

The dossiers are actively updated on my Github wiki so you can view them here, and more. And as it happens, I'm currently preparing all of Nero's moons (or maybe plainly all the remaining moons) for publishing.

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by JadeOfMaar

[Superfluous J]

10 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Also, subtly paging @5thHorseman because this pack looks like the sort of 'new and different' thing he might enjoy

Just the fact that a moon has a moon intrigues me enough to earmark this one.

[eddiew]

6 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@eddiew Yes. Tellumo is a tease. You have to build for Eve to handle it. But the fact that air engines work and the atmosphere is half Eve's height provides quite a lot of mercy for the high gee. sadly I can't help with the Map view problem and Galileo's away until tomorrow.

The dossiers are actively updated on my Github wiki so you can view them here, and more. And as it happens, I'm currently preparing all of Nero's moons (or maybe plainly all the remaining moons) for publishing.

Nice one, cheers   I can wait on the clicky/target issue - going to be a while before my career ships can get off the homeworld anyway. Plus I need to work out whether I can put Rald around it...

 

1 minute ago, 5thHorseman said:

Just the fact that a moon has a moon intrigues me enough to earmark this one.

Outer Planets Mod also offers one of these actually, way out around Urlum   But I did that last career, hence I'm working out a modpack to go with this one. I have a hunch it's going to be more akin to the 2-3.2x Kerbin mods than it is to stock...

Spoiler

 

[JadeOfMaar]

29 minutes ago, eddiew said:

whether I can put Rald around it...

Actually, I think, the Map issues should be all-gone but we'll see when Galileo comes back and starts using KSP 1.2.1 to dev. Concerning Rald: Any Mun and Minmus replacements can simply take those orbits. Gael's moons have wider orbits than Kerbin's....

Spoiler

And hmm, maybe I ought to prepare a resource bias for that. It'd have to separate from GPP's package though.

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by JadeOfMaar

[eddiew]

1 minute ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Actually, I think, the Map issues should be all-gone but we'll see when Galileo comes back and starts using KSP 1.2.1 to dev. Concerning Rald: Any Mun and Minmus replacements can simply take those orbits. Gael's moons have wider orbits than Kerbin's....

  Hide contents

And hmm, maybe I ought to prepare a resource bias for that.

 

Nice, might put it in place of Mun then. Or maybe it would be cool as a moon of Tellumo... decisions!

Not sure I understand anything about resource biases ^^; 

[JadeOfMaar]

Lol. Well Tellumo would be happy. I think he learned his lesson from eating his first moon and getting rings.

"Resource bias" as I call it is exercised fine control over a resource's abundance at a planet or moon to augment the mining experience. I've heavily used and developed this in GPP as a gift (for something new, fun and important to exploit) and as a challenge (it adds realism to the planets, realism that some players, especially USI fans will find shocking for better and for worse)

Edited November 5, 2016 by JadeOfMaar