kerbal ftl [Min KSP 1.12.2] Blueshift: Kerbal FTL

[JadeOfMaar]

@Ooglak Kerman It's kind of a good thing that you can't use a gravitic engine and a warp engine simultaneously. (It doesn't make any sense to attempt to do so.)

[Ooglak Kerman]

13 hours ago, Ooglak Kerman said:

 

I did some more testing on this issue.  Using the gravatic test ship above, I'm able to turn the warp on and off multiple times and it works fine.  I can have the GND-01 and the warp drive active at the same time.   The issue manifests when the warp is turned on after the gravatic engine has been activated (and/or turned off)

This issue exists also with the GND-00 and with all warp engines/rings

@JadeOfMaar the simultaneous running was just for testing to find all the cases in which this condition manifests.  if you turn the gravatic on and then turn it back off, you no longer have any warp engine capacity.  I'd love to hear if you experience this also.

Apologies if I didn't do a good job of describing the issue.  The logs offer nothing either.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Ooglak Kerman

[Clancythecat]

2 hours ago, Ooglak Kerman said:

I did some more testing on this issue.  Using the gravatic test ship above, I'm able to turn the warp on and off multiple times and it works fine.  I can have the GND-01 and the warp drive active at the same time.   The issue manifests when the warp is turned on after the gravatic engine has been activated (and/or turned off)

This issue exists also with the GND-00 and with all warp engines/rings

@JadeOfMaar the simultaneous running was just for testing to find all the cases in which this condition manifests.  if you turn the gravatic on and then turn it back off, you no longer have any warp engine capacity.  I'd love to hear if you experience this also.

Apologies if I didn't do a good job of describing the issue.  The logs offer nothing either.

I've had the same problem, I think it's something to do with the fact that they both use gravitational waves, although I'm not sure of that.

The warp engine works normally until you turn the gravity engine on and off, then the warp engine needs the gravity engine to be on in order to function. 

[Ooglak Kerman]

1 hour ago, Clancythecat said:

I've had the same problem, I think it's something to do with the fact that they both use gravitational waves, although I'm not sure of that.

The warp engine works normally until you turn the gravity engine on and off, then the warp engine needs the gravity engine to be on in order to function. 

@Clancythecat Good that someone else is able to reproduce the issue.  Bad that it manifests.

I see the same behavior you describe.  Gravatic must be on to use warp after first use of gravatic.

I made a quick drive to Duna and running both engines together seems to cause no issues.  The warp orbit circularization feature works without the gravatic engine running.  Multiple start-ups and shutdowns are no issue.  You can turn the warp engine on first - it just won't work until the gravatic engine is started. 

I'm glad there is a work-around on this and to be truthful, it actually adds an interesting quirkiness.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Ooglak Kerman

[SkyFall2489]

Idea: Engines that run on ElectroPlasma, but can use GravityWaves to boost the speed of the exhaust, greatly increasing thrust and ISP.

[JadeOfMaar]

2 hours ago, SkyFall2489 said:

Idea: Engines that run on ElectroPlasma, but can use GravityWaves to boost the speed of the exhaust, greatly increasing thrust and ISP.

Nah... Not all things get better if you try to add to them. Why water down a pure gravitic engine to enhance something that's never meant to even be used as a ship's main engine? Just one gravitic engine can provide just over 1 TWR for a ship with any mass value (but Graviolium consumption scales with the ship mass, so if you weigh more, you burn more). So simply add another gravitic engine for 1+ more TWR. And once you're using gravitic engines or equivalent, you're not going to be concerned about Isp. It becomes irrelevant. You'll only be concerned about when your tank is down to 10% full.

The main thing you'll need ElectroPlasma engines for is a heavy plasma vernier for RCS rotation of a very large ship. Gravitic RCS only provides translation so that's why that exists.

[Ooglak Kerman]

21 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Nah... Not all things get better if you try to add to them. Why water down a pure gravitic engine to enhance something that's never meant to even be used as a ship's main engine? Just one gravitic engine can provide just over 1 TWR for a ship with any mass value (but Graviolium consumption scales with the ship mass, so if you weigh more, you burn more). So simply add another gravitic engine for 1+ more TWR. And once you're using gravitic engines or equivalent, you're not going to be concerned about Isp. It becomes irrelevant. You'll only be concerned about when your tank is down to 10% full.

The main thing you'll need ElectroPlasma engines for is a heavy plasma vernier for RCS rotation of a very large ship. Gravitic RCS only provides translation so that's why that exists.

The idea of pairing up the gravatic engines with the warp engines is very appealing.  As long as there is sufficient graviolium and fusion pellet production to support the use of these technologies, then there is none of the deafening thunder of launch and the attendant atmospheric pollution.  No spent stages crashing randomly down upon towns and cities or cluttering up this or that orbit just waiting to Kesslerize.

There is the Asteroid Protection Environmental Society who claim that "asteroids have feelings too".  We shan't go there - it is a silly place.  Most go with Bill's sentiment of "let's grind us up some asteroid".

The organization - "Fuel A Rocket Today"  -  which represents Kerbals working in the liquid fuel and oxidizer industry - warns that society will collapse, Kerbol will supernova, and giant marshmallow kerbals will roam and bring the end of things if these technologies are adopted.

[Angelo Kerman]

2 hours ago, Clancythecat said:

I've had the same problem, I think it's something to do with the fact that they both use gravitational waves, although I'm not sure of that.

The warp engine works normally until you turn the gravity engine on and off, then the warp engine needs the gravity engine to be on in order to function. 

 

1 hour ago, Ooglak Kerman said:

@Clancythecat Good that someone else is able to reproduce the issue.  Bad that it manifests.

I see the same behavior you describe.  Gravatic must be on to use warp after first use of gravatic.

I made a quick drive to Duna and running both engines together seems to cause no issues.  The warp orbit circularization feature works without the gravatic engine running.  Multiple start-ups and shutdowns are no issue.  You can turn the warp engine on first - it just won't work until the gravatic engine is started. 

I'm glad there is a work-around on this and to be truthful, it actually adds an interesting quirkiness.

The gravitic generators in Blueshift will drain gravity waves when not activated. The KFS gravitic engine generators do that too if you have Blueshift installed. The WBIGraviticGenerator will drain all the OUTPUT_RESOURCE entries (specifically, GravityWaves and StaticCharge) when switched off as well, and they're only drained from the part with the generator.

I think the problem is that Blueshift's gravitic generators are draining gravity waves vessel-wide, as are the self-contained gravitic engines in KFS.

Here is Blueshift 1.7.3 to fix that issue. You'll also need KFS 0.6.9.

[Ooglak Kerman]

2 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

 

The gravitic generators in Blueshift will drain gravity waves when not activated. The KFS gravitic engine generators do that too if you have Blueshift installed. The WBIGraviticGenerator will drain all the OUTPUT_RESOURCE entries (specifically, GravityWaves and StaticCharge) when switched off as well, and they're only drained from the part with the generator.

I think the problem is that Blueshift's gravitic generators are draining gravity waves vessel-wide, as are the self-contained gravitic engines in KFS.

Here is Blueshift 1.7.3 to fix that issue. You'll also need KFS 0.6.9.

@Angel-125 thanks for this amazing turnaround.  You programmer types and the easy fixing of the things.  I had a look at the code for both, but I'm just a lowly sysadmin who just hits it harder with a bigger hammer.  Your description very much lines up with my observations of StaticCharge behavior - which initially confused me.

I had sent a ship up via gravatic and found it unable to activate warp for the chosen mission.  The VERY cool thing is that I was able to deorbit in a not explody fashion with the gravatic and salvage the mission. 

I've tested the fix and it sure appears to work.  Interestingly, when you activate the gravatic engine, the Gravity Wave "tank" will only go up to about 25%.  Activating main power on the warp engine rapidly takes it to full Gravity Waves.  NOT an issue at all - simply interesting.  The gravatic engine is fully capable of taking the ship to minimum warp altitude.  I forsee a leisurely cruise through the diffs in your code  for my own edification though.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Ooglak Kerman

[DY_ZBX]

Hi all, I would like to ask you how this stargate should be activated, I don't have a destination selected in my options.

Edited March 13, 2022 by DY_ZBX

[SkyFall2489]

8 hours ago, DY_ZBX said:

Hi all, I would like to ask you how this stargate should be activated, I don't have a destination selected in my options.

Remember to have a second. gate to connect to.

 

13 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Why water down a pure gravitic engine to enhance something that's never meant to even be used as a ship's main engine?

It could be placed in a seperate mod, as the kerbals are just beginning to find out about the whole graviolium thing. They would be much cheaper and easier to unlock, and much more graviolium-efficient if used on a standard hohmann transfer.

[DY_ZBX]

37 minutes ago, SkyFall2489 said:

Remember to have a second. gate to connect to.

I did create two  gate, one around kerbin and one around jool, but there is no "select" option.

 

 

But this wild stargate is teleportable, the one you built yourself is not, I don't know why.

Edited March 13, 2022 by DY_ZBX

[Ooglak Kerman]

11 hours ago, DY_ZBX said:

Hi all, I would like to ask you how this stargate should be activated, I don't have a destination selected in my options.

An issue I experienced is placing the docking ports in the incorrect alignment.  The ports must be aligned to dock with one another.

With the latest version, you do not need the docking ports.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Ooglak Kerman

[Angelo Kerman]

15 hours ago, Ooglak Kerman said:

@Angel-125 thanks for this amazing turnaround.  You programmer types and the easy fixing of the things.  I had a look at the code for both, but I'm just a lowly sysadmin who just hits it harder with a bigger hammer.  Your description very much lines up with my observations of StaticCharge behavior - which initially confused me.

I had sent a ship up via gravatic and found it unable to activate warp for the chosen mission.  The VERY cool thing is that I was able to deorbit in a not explody fashion with the gravatic and salvage the mission. 

I've tested the fix and it sure appears to work.  Interestingly, when you activate the gravatic engine, the Gravity Wave "tank" will only go up to about 25%.  Activating main power on the warp engine rapidly takes it to full Gravity Waves.  NOT an issue at all - simply interesting.  The gravatic engine is fully capable of taking the ship to minimum warp altitude.  I forsee a leisurely cruise through the diffs in your code  for my own edification though.

That might be a result of how the system is set up. Generators will output gravity waves throughout the vessel, but they only drain the tanks that are in the part. So if you have 5 generators and only one is running, then the one with the running generator is the only one with gravity waves while the rest will be empty. To make it so that just one generator will fill all the tanks, and if none are running then the tanks will be emptied will take additional redesign. That's in my todo list, but the current fix will at least ensure that you can use KFS and Blueshift together.

[Ooglak Kerman]

30 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

That might be a result of how the system is set up. Generators will output gravity waves throughout the vessel, but they only drain the tanks that are in the part. So if you have 5 generators and only one is running, then the one with the running generator is the only one with gravity waves while the rest will be empty. To make it so that just one generator will fill all the tanks, and if none are running then the tanks will be emptied will take additional redesign. That's in my todo list, but the current fix will at least ensure that you can use KFS and Blueshift together.

Thanks for the explanation.  I'll need to go back and watch the behavior to try to wrap my head around this.  Might be better to just accept it and say "experimental technology yields unexpected results". 

I'm looking forward to an Eve mission.  The gravatic is a game changer for that.  Ease on down in that thick atmosphere.

[Admiral Fluffy]

Made a stupidly large ISV with this. Very cool mod.

[Angelo Kerman]

49 minutes ago, Ooglak Kerman said:

Thanks for the explanation.  I'll need to go back and watch the behavior to try to wrap my head around this.  Might be better to just accept it and say "experimental technology yields unexpected results". 

I'm looking forward to an Eve mission.  The gravatic is a game changer for that.  Ease on down in that thick atmosphere.

I may have a relatively easy way to detect if no generators are producing gravity waves. If so then I should have another patch next week.

[Ooglak Kerman]

18 hours ago, Admiral Fluffy said:

Made a stupidly large ISV with this. Very cool mod.

 

 

I stacked two of those S-3 rings to give it a try.  Gaah..  Too fast!!  In interstellar space on the way to Nova Kerbani, it broke the game.  I expect the issue had to be with auto-saves just not being able to keep up.

You are obviously using waterfall.  Is there any config other than just slapping it into /gamedata ?  I've been thinking I'd like to add it.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ooglak Kerman

[modus]

It's totally worth it! Iirc all the necessary files are all in the blueshift folder, you just need waterfall to get it to work (ofcourse) .

[Ooglak Kerman]

1 hour ago, modus said:

It's totally worth it! Iirc all the necessary files are all in the blueshift folder, you just need waterfall to get it to work (ofcourse) .

Just installed it.  Wow.  That there is right purdy!  Sadly, while in warp, you really only want to be looking at map view.  Thing happen just too fast.

[Ooglak Kerman]

@Angel-125 how does the autocircularization for the warp handle moons with exceptionally small SOI.
For instance, Hale in the Sarnus system.  Minimum warp operation altitude is 6 KM.  SOI is 6.58 KM.  Gilly is a cakewalk compared to this little guy.

I suppose though, that I could drive on out and see for myself.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ooglak Kerman

[Admiral Fluffy]

How do i disable the safety protocols? (I want to smash a ship into Jool at light speed)

On 3/13/2022 at 3:37 PM, Ooglak Kerman said:

I stacked two of those S-3 rings to give it a try.  Gaah..  Too fast!!  In interstellar space on the way to Nova Kerbani, it broke the game.  I expect the issue had to be with auto-saves just not being able to keep up.

It can get to Grannus in a minute or two. Probably would be of better use as a pusher to get payloads there.

[Ooglak Kerman]

On 3/14/2022 at 3:42 PM, Admiral Fluffy said:

How do i disable the safety protocols? (I want to smash a ship into Jool at light speed)

It can get to Grannus in a minute or two. Probably would be of better use as a pusher to get payloads there.

I've seen where folks go and try to smash into this or that at very high velocities and just winding up going right through.  Probably a function of the frequency that the game determines where you are.

It does look like the safety protocol can be disabled and that opens some right interesting possibilities for running a warp engine on the surface (with a whole new instance of the game).  I have found a couple things that will work against you for this experiment though - especially for something like Jool with a great big SOI.

[Ooglak Kerman]

@Admiral Fluffy I gave a bunch more thought to your posit and oddly it was one of my cajun songs that brought to focus.

TLDR; your ship will, with high probability be destroyed by Jool with no drama and no effect on Jool.  You are not moving at light speed.  Feed JOOL!!

I hope @Angel-125 or @JadeOfMaar will swat me down if I'm way off base.

Several things are working against this worthy goal of yours.

- planets and moons are on rails.  You can't affect them as Scott Manley showed us a few years ago.
- the warp drive translates you through space.  There is no no acceleration and no velocity involved other than what you start with.  Look up the discussions about the stand-alone Alcubierre Drive mod if you want serious "uhhhhhhh".
- your position in space is calculated - I think - 50 times per second while in warp.  If you are moving at very high warp then you might make it right through Jool without being calculated.  That would be the only hope of not kersploding.  Chances are that you will be calculated as "in" Jool and do the "dust" thing.
- the game does not calculate your energy (e=mc^2).  Just G forces on impact.  Easy given mass and acceleration involved.  Again, you are not moving at more than C.  See point #2.

If this warp drive existed in real life, the same thing would likely hold true.  You are translating through space.  Smacking into a planet at 1C with the warp drive would not make you a relativistic projectile.  The warp bubble would collapse and you would just be moving along at whatever velocity you started with.  Who knows what the uncontrolled popping of said bubble would entail though.  The energies involved are supposed to be kinda big.


 

[JadeOfMaar]

@Ooglak Kerman Having similarly come up with your entire response there ........I chose not to entertain @Admiral Fluffy's request. In short: To properly engage in such a shenanigan, you must forget about warp drive (because of how it works) and gain your acceleration and direction via any of the "old fashioned ways:" whatever combination of cheats or krakens lights your solids.