MechJeb in Stock KSP2? [Split from another thread]

[Stratennotblitz]

19 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

I'd like something like this where satellite dish orientation mattered and could be autonomously maintained. More so though I would like to see a system where orbit itself can be maintained so satellites in resonant orbits could maintain their positions relative to one another but even asking for mechjeb gets a large portion of the community up in arms...

wait, why? people don't want mechjeb?

[pandaman]

57 minutes ago, Stratennotblitz said:

wait, why? people don't want mechjeb?

Many do, but also many don't.

KSP is a game where 'flying' rockets is a big part, actually the whole 'point' of the original game.  Watching the computer fly them sort of defeats the object a bit for many of us.  You wouldn't play an F1 racing game to just watch your car, you want to drive it yourself.

I can see the appeal and benefits (and 'realism') of autopilots, and would likely use some of the features, but I actually enjoy the achievement of successfully launching, flying, docking and landing myself.

[Stratennotblitz]

43 minutes ago, pandaman said:

Many do, but also many don't.

KSP is a game where 'flying' rockets is a big part, actually the whole 'point' of the original game.  Watching the computer fly them sort of defeats the object a bit for many of us.  You wouldn't play an F1 racing game to just watch your car, you want to drive it yourself.

I can see the appeal and benefits (and 'realism') of autopilots, and would likely use some of the features, but I actually enjoy the achievement of successfully launching, flying, docking and landing myself.

this is ridiculous, almost no one uses mechjeb to fly a rocket, they just use it to make boring manoeuvres and repetitive landers, no one wants to drive a o=rover on the moon fir ours to reach a crashed lander and recover science, not to mention that you can hover, record flight data and it helps hugely with slow computers or people on laptops.

my guess is that the people that don't want mechjeb are a loud minority, this kinda liquides me off why would anyone care about how I mod my purchased game? this type of gatekeeping is just toxic 

[Black Dog]

That's why MechJeb is a mod and not part of the base game. No one wants to take mods away from players that enjoy them.

I personally never used it, probably never will and I have almost 1000 hours in KSP.  Never missed it either because I learned so much more flying my own rockets.  And being on suboptimal trajectory because I missed a decoupling or maneuver point by a few seconds makes it more fun than calculating the perfect amount of fuel and then watching MechJeb do all my work for me from start to landing.

2 hours ago, Stratennotblitz said:

my guess is that the people that don't want mechjeb are a loud minority, this kinda liquides me off why would anyone care about how I mod my purchased game? this type of gatekeeping is just toxic 

Why would you assume they are

a) a minority?

b) even thinking about what mods you run?

c) actively trying to keep your favourite mods away?

[Stratennotblitz]

6 hours ago, Black Dog said:

That's why MechJeb is a mod and not part of the base game. No one wants to take mods away from players that enjoy them.

I personally never used it, probably never will and I have almost 1000 hours in KSP.  Never missed it either because I learned so much more flying my own rockets.  And being on suboptimal trajectory because I missed a decoupling or maneuver point by a few seconds makes it more fun than calculating the perfect amount of fuel and then watching MechJeb do all my work for me from start to landing.

Why would you assume they are

a) a minority?

b) even thinking about what mods you run?

c) actively trying to keep your favourite mods away?

no normal person would want mods, you never said that some people didn't want it in the base game, which is ridiculous anyways because no one would want that

they're a minority because most people do use mechjeb

what do you mean what mods i run? 

yes they are, mechjeb is a perfectly good mod with no exploits 

if someone use mechjeb to use a rocket, it's probably because : they're launching a comms network so multiple launches, b they're building a base so they need multiple launches and doing the same thing c they're trying it for the first Time or they're on ro which mechjeb is basically needed for controlling rockets with low gimball

 

the reason why you don't use mechjeb is probably because you've Never tried building huge stations around the sun and a base on Dres, try it and you'll get what I mean

[RealKerbal3x]

6 minutes ago, Stratennotblitz said:

they're a minority because most people do use mechjeb

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Yes, you're going to see a lot of people on this forum using mods like MechJeb, but that's because people who've joined the forum are more likely to be aware of the modding community as a whole (thanks to the extensive modding section of this forum).

We don't have very reliable data on how many players KSP has, but the members of this forum are clearly a small subset of the entire playerbase. The majority of KSP players probably don't use any mods at all, especially when you count console players. So, if anything, people who use mods at all are in a minority.

[Stratennotblitz]

1 hour ago, RealKerbal3x said:

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Yes, you're going to see a lot of people on this forum using mods like MechJeb, but that's because people who've joined the forum are more likely to be aware of the modding community as a whole (thanks to the extensive modding section of this forum).

We don't have very reliable data on how many players KSP has, but the members of this forum are clearly a small subset of the entire playerbase. The majority of KSP players probably don't use any mods at all, especially when you count console players. So, if anything, people who use mods at all are in a minority.

ksp sold more than 1 million copies and less than 5 million

there are https://www.curseforge.com/kerbal/ksp-mods/mechjeb 3 millions of downloads on mechjeb 2 only 

[shdwlrd]

Lol... the old MJ argument. Any talk about autopilots will start an argument between the purists and those who like the convenience that autopilots provides.

[Stratennotblitz]

1 hour ago, shdwlrd said:

Lol... the old MJ argument. Any talk about autopilots will start an argument between the purists and those who like the convenience that autopilots provides.

it's a mod lmao just let it slide, no one would want that in the original game

[pandaman]

2 hours ago, Stratennotblitz said:

it's a mod lmao just let it slide, no one would want that in the original game

It had been asked for on multipke occasions, so yes, some people do actually 

[linuxgurugamer]

2 hours ago, Stratennotblitz said:

it's a mod lmao just let it slide, no one would want that in the original game

Boy, for someone who joined the forums only 3 days ago, you do seem to think that you have the pulse of all players.   The range of players is vast, ranging from purists who only play stock to people like myself who play with mods in the 3 digits.

Accept this and move on, it is an unwinnable discussion 

[shdwlrd]

3 hours ago, Stratennotblitz said:

it's a mod lmao just let it slide, no one would want that in the original game

I agree with the "is a mod, let is slide" sentiment. There are a few things that MJ does that I would like to see being stock. The statement that no one wants flight automation is objective false. 

[Dman979]

This conversation has been moved from another thread to a separate discussion to keep things organized.

[MaxxQ]

9 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

The range of players is vast, ranging from purists who only play stock to people like myself who play with mods in the 3 digits. 

Count me in the latter category.

As for the count of 3 million downloads of MJ2, I can account for at least a dozen of those myself.  Updated versions, multiple KSP installs, corrupted downloads, etc.

Edited July 29, 2021 by MaxxQ

[Souptime]

 

welp time to throw my 2 cents into the hat

Most of the time i see "*insert mod here* should be put in the game" i always think to make it toggleable, so both sides can have what they want

One side doesn't want mechjeb, they can turn it off in the settings

One side does want mechjeb, they can turn it on in the settings

I personally don't use mechjeb, it seems way too fancy and complicated and as you know i suffer from the disease called: smoothbrained and too lazy to learn

On 7/28/2021 at 2:07 AM, Stratennotblitz said:

this is ridiculous, almost no one uses mechjeb to fly a rocket, they just use it to make boring manoeuvres and repetitive landers, no one wants to drive a o=rover on the moon fir ours to reach a crashed lander and recover science, not to mention that you can hover, record flight data and it helps hugely with slow computers or people on laptops.

my guess is that the people that don't want mechjeb are a loud minority, this kinda liquides me off why would anyone care about how I mod my purchased game? this type of gatekeeping is just toxic 

i've seen a lot of people use mechjeb to fly rockets on youtube  

and i've never seen people trying to gatekeep people from mechjeb, ever

no ones gatekeeping or being toxic, some people just don't want certain mods ingame.

17 hours ago, Stratennotblitz said:

no normal person would want mods, you never said that some people didn't want it in the base game, which is ridiculous anyways because no one would want that

they're a minority because most people do use mechjeb

what do you mean what mods i run? 

yes they are, mechjeb is a perfectly good mod with no exploits 

if someone use mechjeb to use a rocket, it's probably because : they're launching a comms network so multiple launches, b they're building a base so they need multiple launches and doing the same thing c they're trying it for the first Time or they're on ro which mechjeb is basically needed for controlling rockets with low gimball

 

the reason why you don't use mechjeb is probably because you've Never tried building huge stations around the sun and a base on Dres, try it and you'll get what I mean

And I wouldn't say that most people use mechjeb with no proof to back it up. and the "no normal person would want mods" is a lie, as multiple small mods have already been added to the game. heck, even current and former KSP devs make mods.

take kerbal alarm clock for an example, in 1.12 it was made stock as the dev of KAC, TriggerAU felt like it was a piece missing from KSP. full auto pilot is not a missing piece as it would eliminate the entire purpose of KSP, to build and fly rockets

What he means by "what mods do you run?" means he's asking about what mods do you use in your install

and he might just not want to use MJ for other reasons, you shouldn't assume stuff about entire groups.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Souptime
Spelling error

[The Aziz]

On 7/28/2021 at 7:21 AM, pandaman said:

You wouldn't play an F1 racing game to just watch your car

I think you're missing a very important bit here (and all people who say mechjeb bad). The game with it doesn't play itself. You can't push space on the launchpad and go make a coffee, while your game lands on the Mun. You still set up pretty much everything, including launch profile, maneuvers precision, ship's attitude, etc etc. You can't compare that to clicking "drive" at the start of a race. It's more like setting up speeds at every corner, overtaking maneuvers, pit stops, and then watch the car do it. You don't play using QWEASDZX, (actually you do if when MJ screws up, and does often) instead you click buttons with your mouse, and, what some people fail to understand, it can be fun too. I'm still flying rockets, I just don't use manual controls for everything.

[pandaman]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

I think you're missing a very important bit here (and all people who say mechjeb bad). The game with it doesn't play itself. You can't push space on the launchpad and go make a coffee, while your game lands on the Mun. You still set up pretty much everything, including launch profile, maneuvers precision, ship's attitude, etc etc. You can't compare that to clicking "drive" at the start of a race. It's more like setting up speeds at every corner, overtaking maneuvers, pit stops, and then watch the car do it. You don't play using QWEASDZX, (actually you do if when MJ screws up, and does often) instead you click buttons with your mouse, and, what some people fail to understand, it can be fun too. I'm still flying rockets, I just don't use manual controls for everything.

Thanks, I haven't used it, except for a quick look at it a while ago.  So you are right, I have "incomplete information", and many pre concieved ideas.

I do think if some if it's functionality were in stock I would end up using it fairly often.

[mcwaffles2003]

4 hours ago, Souptime said:

 

welp time to throw my 2 cents into the hat

Most of the time i see "*insert mod here* should be put in the game" i always think to make it toggleable, so both sides can have what they want

One side doesn't want mechjeb, they can turn it off in the settings

One side does want mechjeb, they can turn it on in the settings

You wouldn't even need to toggle it. Its not like commnet where if its on it affects gameplay. It's just additional controls, just ignore it if you don't want to use it. 

1 hour ago, pandaman said:

Thanks, I haven't used it, except for a quick look at it a while ago.  So you are right, I have "incomplete information", and many pre concieved ideas.

I do think if some if it's functionality were in stock I would end up using it fairly often.

really helps for high precision burns like setting up resonant orbits

[Stratennotblitz]

5 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I think you're missing a very important bit here (and all people who say mechjeb bad). The game with it doesn't play itself. You can't push space on the launchpad and go make a coffee, while your game lands on the Mun. You still set up pretty much everything, including launch profile, maneuvers precision, ship's attitude, etc etc. You can't compare that to clicking "drive" at the start of a race. It's more like setting up speeds at every corner, overtaking maneuvers, pit stops, and then watch the car do it. You don't play using QWEASDZX, (actually you do if when MJ screws up, and does often) instead you click buttons with your mouse, and, what some people fail to understand, it can be fun too. I'm still flying rockets, I just don't use manual controls for everything.

I always use mechjeb to make cool things like hovering to get to another base, but if you set it to land at target you're fd I think it's intentional that they made it this way so it wouldn't be so easy

16 hours ago, pandaman said:

It had been asked for on multipke occasions, so yes, some people do actually 

console players kinda need a dumb version of it the only advantage console has is on landing, they are GOOD at it

[Bej Kerman]

On 7/28/2021 at 7:07 AM, Stratennotblitz said:

this is ridiculous, almost no one uses mechjeb to fly a rocket, they just use it to make boring manoeuvres and repetitive landers, no one wants to drive a o=rover on the moon fir ours to reach a crashed lander and recover science, not to mention that you can hover, record flight data and it helps hugely with slow computers or people on laptops.

my guess is that the people that don't want mechjeb are a loud minority, this kinda liquides me off why would anyone care about how I mod my purchased game? this type of gatekeeping is just toxic 

KSP 2 is introducing automated milk runs that happen in the background for transporting lots of resources. The best thing is that there's no autopilot; newbies can't sidestep having to develop an intuition for spaceflight in order to be good at flying. Mechjeb has no place in a game where to objective is to get good at flying through space without having to use training wheels

5 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I think you're missing a very important bit here (and all people who say mechjeb bad). The game with it doesn't play itself. You can't push space on the launchpad and go make a coffee, while your game lands on the Mun. You still set up pretty much everything, including launch profile, maneuvers precision, ship's attitude, etc etc. You can't compare that to clicking "drive" at the start of a race. It's more like setting up speeds at every corner, overtaking maneuvers, pit stops, and then watch the car do it. You don't play using QWEASDZX, (actually you do if when MJ screws up, and does often) instead you click buttons with your mouse, and, what some people fail to understand, it can be fun too. I'm still flying rockets, I just don't use manual controls for everything.

You can do all that but you won't actually be developing an intuition for orbital mechanics; you're not flying rockets, just building them and not leaning how to space.

[Stratennotblitz]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

KSP 2 is introducing automated milk runs that happen in the background for transporting lots of resources. The best thing is that there's no autopilot; newbies can't sidestep having to develop an intuition for spaceflight in order to be good at flying. Mechjeb has no place in a game where to objective is to get good at flying through space without having to use training wheels

You can do all that but you won't actually be developing an intuition for orbital mechanics; you're not flying rockets, just building them and not leaning how to space.

you can do all that but you're not learning how to transport resources, you won't get an intuition for resource sharing

[RealKerbal3x]

4 minutes ago, Stratennotblitz said:

you can do all that but you're not learning how to transport resources, you won't get an intuition for resource sharing

Transporting resources is the same as regular spaceflight, except you're carrying resources. There's no 'intuition' for it, aside from the intuition for orbital mechanics you already have from playing KSP.

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, RealKerbal3x said:

Transporting resources is the same as regular spaceflight, except you're carrying resources. There's no 'intuition' for it, aside from the intuition for orbital mechanics you already have from playing KSP.

To add to your statement, you also still have to do a milk run once, so it's not like MechJeb where you learn squat.

[Pthigrivi]

Without backseat moderating I'd just like to say I think we can all express our opinions without being rude or disparaging others' playstyles. We're all just here to have fun. 

I still use Mech Jeb but I use it almost entirely for information purposes. There are some really great tools around landing and aerobrake prediction like trajectory factoring drag and estimated landing distance to target that I find absolutely vital. Better Burn Time also has some really important tools for docking approaches and managing suicide burns that I desperately hope make it into KSP2. These kind of things as well as the basic stock piloting and maneuver node abilities in KSP1 should really be available to the player from the first launch. 

Now, while I don't use autoland or maneuver execution or any of that because I personally like doing them manually I do recognize the value for a couple of reasons:

1) KSP2 promises to be a lot more expansive and much more demanding in terms of logistics, deliveries, and infrastructure building, and for anyone who's spent time delivering a starter base to Minmus or Duna you know just how much time it takes. Intercept has already suggested that there will be automated milk-runs, which is nice, but I doubt they're going to let you auto-deliver your first several modules when you're getting set up. I actually agree with the 'purists' that precision landing like this is an important skill that players should learn manually, but after the 10th, 20th, and 30th module drop I wouldn't blame players for wanting to have an option to let Jeb take the wheel to speed things up.

2) There are also some tasks like precision landing re-usable first stages and boosters back at KSC or on a drone ship that are legitimately effing difficult. People can do it, but it took me years to get good at landing within 1km of KSC let alone on a floating barge. Because space-x style reusability is such a big part of modern day spaceflight economics I think it would be a shame to only enable that for master pilots. Even space-x would never have someone land those things manually. Not to mention when you have multiple boosters or a second stage moving to orbit while your first stage lands you can't be two places at once. 

Based on this my personal feeling is some of these automation tools and also things like rover-automation, hold altitude and heading for planes, and hover and translate for landers would be great additions to KSP2. One nice way to handle it would be to make the informational assets there from the beginning but hold back some of the real autopilot and auto-land/auto-ascend tools as progression rewards. If they only unlocked after you'd say landed on Duna or reached a certain off-world population you'd still be encouraging players to learn these skills manually while giving a break later as things like precision landing became old-hat and tedious. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Pthigrivi

[herbal space program]

My take is  similar to @Pthigrivi's above.  In a game that is about both building and flying spacecraft, just letting players ignore the whole flying part from the get-go would defeat the purpose.   And to answer to a comment by OP about everybody using MechJeb because of how many people have downloaded it,  I actually have MechJeb 2 installed, but I basically did so out of curiosity more than anything else and have never used it once in career to fly anything, and only in sandbox  a few times to learn how it works, over the course of what by now must be something like 3,000 hours of gameplay.  Having said that,  I think that a lot of the vessel/flight informational resources provided by  KER and MechJeb should be  available in stock pretty much immediately.  I also think that information about when various orbital transfer windows happen, as well as better tools for planning maneuvers, should at least become available pretty early in the career game.   I mean, I actually did create my own transfer window and dV calculation tools in Excel, but I can respect that not everybody should be required to deal with that. But as to having the game actually fly missions for you, if you want that in stock career I think you should have to  earn it.  You don't want to manually fly the same run over and over? Then do it once manually, and after that the pilot who did it can do it the next time automatically.  Other tools like suicide and de-orbit burn calculators/automation should require a certain level of pilot experience before they are unlocked. And as to nobody wanting to repeatedly drive some rover for hours to repair a crashed lander, 1) that problem is less about automating stuff than it is about the silly way the contract system in KSP1 works, which is something that has been commented on here endlessly, and 2) If you have to drive your rover for hours, maybe you should have figured out how to land it a little closer to its target! And lastly, in sandbox mode everything should be available immediately and there's no reason anybody should want to fight about it.