Fun Fact Thread! (previously fun fact for the day, not limited to 1 per day anymore.)

[farmerben]

I wonder if its legal for US companies to fly that path with a balloon.  Maybe you need some sort of license?

[DDE]

12 hours ago, farmerben said:

I wonder if its legal for US companies to fly that path with a balloon.  Maybe you need some sort of license?

Looked it up. ICAO Rules of the Air have a big section on Untethered Balloons. Gotta get permission crom every nation you fly over.

Russian stories of the Geophysica dedicated balloon interceptor cite a treaty banning unrestricted balloon launches as the reason spy balloon overflights ended in 1984...

[kerbiloid]

Every time when you let an unknown balloon escape, some (sort) starts happening.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

16 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Don't think the Chinese balloons are spy something

They are a spy something.  These are the games nations play with one another.  China clutching its pearls and denying is to be expected.  It is the classic 'Nuh-Uh defense'. 

 

The rule of politics? 

 

"Admit nothing.  Deny Everything.  Make counter-accusations." 

[steve9728]

A: Integrate the already produced satellites with the CZ-11 rockets to send a 350-750kg satellite into orbit within 24 hours

B: Use the already existing satellite constellation system and let them revisit any place you want 23-25 times in a day and give you the information you need with images of 0.5m to 0.75m resolution;

C: Trust the westerly belt to send it where you want it to go.

The options are here, and I'm sure people are more rational than I am.

Edited February 6, 2023 by steve9728

[SunlitZelkova]

[snip]

I don’t think this applies to any certain *system* tries to stay on topic, it is just a feature of bureaucracy everywhere.

Space Shuttle is to American aerospace bureaucracy as spy balloon is to Chinese intelligence bureaucracy.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Vanamonde

[kerbiloid]

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/north-korean-balloon-briefly-spotted-over-south-korea-seoul-says-2023-02-06/

Now a similar one at Korea.

Spoiler

[steve9728]

Couldn't the Chinese have a need for more accurate weather forecasting? Then, since there is a need for more accurate weather forecasting, isn't high-altitude atmospheric sounding necessary? Things on this planet don't just either serve a political or a military purpose.

I was typed a few lines but went to have a shower to calm down and I didn't feel it was worth breaking some of the rules of this forum to some people." He's already being stupid like that, let him be"

Edited February 6, 2023 by steve9728

[Codraroll]

8 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

Couldn't the Chinese have a need for more accurate weather forecasting? Then, since there is a need for more accurate weather forecasting, isn't high-altitude atmospheric sounding necessary? Things on this planet don't just either serve a political or a military purpose.

All fine, if done in their own airspace. But when balloons fly into the airspace of other countries, certain international treaties apply.

And when they fly into the airspace of other countries without a warning beforehand, it's an outright hostile action according to most definitions.

[magnemoe]

5 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

They are a spy something.  These are the games nations play with one another.  China clutching its pearls and denying is to be expected.  It is the classic 'Nuh-Uh defense'. 

The rule of politics? 

"Admit nothing.  Deny Everything.  Make counter-accusations." 

Sure, I don't just see the purpose, China have spy satellites and most of US airspace is open so no problems overflying it for better images or signal intelligence purposes. The balloon could not be steered so it would follow the wind so low chance flying over something important. 
Yes you could put stuff on it who you might get problems importing or getting your had on in the US but it was also an high change the balloon would crash or get shot down. 
Now it could just try to see if this worked, yes it would probably be detected but most would suspect it was an US balloon.

Yes the US sent spy balloons over the Soviet Union, but then they did not have high flying aircraft nor spy satellites. 
Fun story, the film had to be radiation resistant flying in the stratosphere. Some of the balloons crashed in Soviet and they used that film to take the first images of the moons backside. 

5 minutes ago, Codraroll said:

All fine, if done in their own airspace. But when balloons fly into the airspace of other countries, certain international treaties apply.

And when they fly into the airspace of other countries without a warning beforehand, it's an outright hostile action according to most definitions.

This, had they said we have an weather or atmospheric study balloon over the pacific, who ended up lasting longer than expected and is will enter over the US things would gone much more smoothly.  
Do we know there it was deployed from? as in China or ship outside the US coast? If later you could get more accuracy. 

During WW 2 Japan launched plenty of balloons with incendiary bombs to fly over the US. Primary purpose was to create forest fires I assume, did minimal damage but an family got killed inspecting one who crashed. 
So balloons can cross the pacific. 

[Vanamonde]

Please leave the politics of the balloon thing for other places on the internet. Getting mad at each other's nationalities is not a fun fact. 

[kerbiloid]

9 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Yes the US sent spy balloons over the Soviet Union, but then they did not have high flying aircraft nor spy satellites. 

Technically, they had. RB-36 and Corona. Just the balloons were cheaper, and since 1960s the planes were vulnerable.

Edited February 7, 2023 by kerbiloid

[darthgently]

From I read the balloon appears to have had the payload of a 747 and managed to slow down and loiter over more than a few sensitive military locations (probably via altitude control to pick which veering wind layer it followed).  The track shows it starting over AK, crossing Canada mostly north to south, then tracking across northern plains of the US missile silo zones.  Apparently the US military tracked it the entire way from before it entered US airspace and studied it the entire way. I doubt any signals it emitted went un captured and the bulk of it is now in US possession for post mortem analysis

[kerbiloid]

https://time.com/6253010/chinese-spy-balloon-shot-down/

Quote

 In the afternoon, officials said, one of the F-22s soared to an altitude of around 58,000 feet, firing an AIM-9X Sidewinder missile toward the balloon floating less than 10,000 feet above it.

(58 000 + 10 000) * 0.3048 / 1000 ~= 21 km

Interesting: how did the IR head capture the cold balloon, and why did they not intercept it before if the altitude numbers are told correctly.

[Vanamonde]

29 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

https://time.com/6253010/chinese-spy-balloon-shot-down/

(58 000 + 10 000) * 0.3048 / 1000 ~= 21 km

Interesting: how did the IR head capture the cold balloon, and why did they not intercept it before if the altitude numbers are told correctly.

Later models of the Sidewinder can have radar guidance. 

[kerbiloid]

Found a hi-res picture.

Spoiler

They write that the flight altitude was 25..37 km.

It was equipped with the compressed helium tanks to maneuver up and down (and thus, choose the preferred wind direction to maneuver horizontally).

So, was shot down when lowered down to ~20 km on the helium reserve depletion.

(Not posting the link as it's too emotionally political.)

Also, they say the local citizens have watched AA missile launches at Billings (MT), but failed due to the flight altitude and poor target for their effective guidance.

The debris have sunk at ~14 m depth, and probably will be fished out soon.

Edited February 7, 2023 by kerbiloid

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

6 hours ago, darthgently said:

From I read the balloon appears to have had the payload of a 747 and managed to slow down and loiter over more than a few sensitive military locations (probably via altitude control to pick which veering wind layer it followed).  The track shows it starting over AK, crossing Canada mostly north to south, then tracking across northern plains of the US missile silo zones.  Apparently the US military tracked it the entire way from before it entered US airspace and studied it the entire way. I doubt any signals it emitted went un captured and the bulk of it is now in US possession for post mortem analysis

https://tenor.com/8Nxz.gif

 

[Nuke]

it looks like its mostly truss and solar panels to me. the domes at the end look like microwave antennas. the hub in the middle could be structural, but it could also contain batteries and electronics. most of the bulk seems to be the power system. it could have just been a telecommunications experiment gone awry. if they were using this as a wireless repeater, and the control system failed, that might be a good explanation. or it could possibly the product of college students in ignorance of international law. frankly it looks like something you could build in a garage with off the shelf parts. 

[farmerben]

How many meters long are those truss structures?  What is the mass of that thing?  The size of the balloon and the mass are related.  What are the stats?

 

[kerbiloid]

They say, ~60 m in size (200 ft or 20-storey building)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/downed-chinese-balloon-was-200-feet-tall-us-military-says-rcna69371

***

The HD photos look different, but from the description the second one could be the Korean one.

***

If it's ~60 m in diameter, its volume is ~110 000 m³.

If it was actually flying at 25..37 km altitude, the air density was 0.005 .. 0.04 kg/m³, so the air mass of this volume is ~ 0.5 .. 4.5 t.

The balloon is filled with helium, so the total mass of the balloon is 0.4 .. 4.0  t, closer to the lower value, so about a tonne, maybe two.

Minus the envelope mass, the equipment unlikely exceeded several hundred kg.

Edited February 7, 2023 by kerbiloid

[darthgently]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

it looks like its mostly truss and solar panels to me. the domes at the end look like microwave antennas. the hub in the middle could be structural, but it could also contain batteries and electronics. most of the bulk seems to be the power system. it could have just been a telecommunications experiment gone awry. if they were using this as a wireless repeater, and the control system failed, that might be a good explanation. or it could possibly the product of college students in ignorance of international law. frankly it looks like something you could build in a garage with off the shelf parts. 

Apparently it was successfully maneuvering via altitude control either via remote signal or on-board program

I'm guessing, if not a meteorological experiment as purported by the CCP, they will find, among other things, a Stingray cell-tower mimicking like module, a lot of cameras, and some way to relay the streaming gathered data in real time.  Maybe streaming to a satellite network upward which if highly directional would be hard to have intercepted 

Edited February 7, 2023 by darthgently

[darthgently]

I'm not certain what the altitude limit is for Stingray so maybe that is way off

[Beamer]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:27 PM, DDE said:

Looked it up. ICAO Rules of the Air have a big section on Untethered Balloons. Gotta get permission crom every nation you fly over.

Russian stories of the Geophysica dedicated balloon interceptor cite a treaty banning unrestricted balloon launches as the reason spy balloon overflights ended in 1984...

I'm not typically into law subjects but I subscribe to one law channel because the guy is a bit of a nerd and often explains the legal perspective of news that interests me (for example he did pieces on the recent D&D license changes, AI copyrights, the FTX situation, etc). Together with a frequent guest he just released a look at the legal matter of the US shooting down this balloon. It's an interesting walk along the various state and international laws and agreements. Warning: it's a bit dank meme heavy at the start but they soon get to the gritty stuff   Sponsor message is all the way at the end so you can stop watching when that starts without missing anything.

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

The video from China Central Television (CCTV), translated by Insider, follows an apparent training exercise involving surveillance balloons. 

In the video, an alarm bell prompts a fighter pilot to prepare and board a fighter jet that appears to be the Chinese J-10, a multi-role aircraft built for air-to-air combat and strike missions. 

A CCTV narrator described the action, saying that loading missiles, powering up, checking the fuselage, and other procedures were all completed quickly.

 

...

The CCTV narrator identified the object first as a white sphere-shaped object. Closer observation found it to be an unmanned balloon. "The supervising command organization judged that it was possibly a super high-altitude surveillance balloon that threatened air defense security," the narrator says.

A pilot is then ordered to shoot it down with a missile.

 

 

China is mad at the US for blasting its suspected spy balloon, but a few years ago, state TV bragged its fighter pilots could shoot one down (msn.com)

 

These are the games we play.

[kerbiloid]

They found it.

https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/210469-vms-ssha-opublikovali-kadry-s-poiska-oblomkov-kitajskogo-razvedyvatelnogo-ajerostata.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp