The Skyhawk Science System - a new, realistic tech tree for KSP, now including Kerbalism support - [v1.1.1 - "For Science!" 8/11/22)]

[Gupyzer0]

@DeadJohn Hello ! well, let's start addressing some of the things you told me 

Well, I just activated the issues on the repo! , hopefully the community can lend me a hand with it.

On 11/29/2023 at 2:51 PM, DeadJohn said:

I'm dumping a big list on you simply because you are considering adopting the mod.

Well, maybe not adopting, just fixing some things here and there to make the thing playable mainly with BDB, gotta need someone else with more free time and a better PC that can handle more mods than what my PC does. IE I can't run KSRSS  but hey, JNSQ is amazing nevertheless. So let's see my fork as a temporary solution or maybe a future permanent one.

On 11/29/2023 at 2:51 PM, DeadJohn said:

1. Several experiments from the BDB "Surveyor" lander probe (soil scoop, alpha spectrometer) did not work properly. They animate and give a stock-like science popup but do not seem to provide Kerbalism science. I think these parts recently came into BDB from the Coatl probes mod, so maybe all science parts borrowed from Coatl need work.
2. Solar storms IMO happen too often and are too strong with default settings. I just unlocked Apollo style capsules (other branches of the tree lag behind) and it looks like can only do one Moon missions then retire; a 2nd visit would likely be fatal due to the high frequency of solar storms.  (I'll admit I have no idea whether these storm settings are solely in Skyhawk Kerbalism or partly within KSRSS configs, but I can dial them down within Kerbalism settings).
3. SCANsat functionality might need attention. Visual/altimeter/biome parts of the SCANsat map properly update but I don't think they are transmitting Kerbalism science. Maybe this is a bug or a design decision made for game balance. (the BDB keyhole cameras *do* provide science when their film is returned, but their SCANsat modules have the same behavior noted above)
4. Experiments that are orbital per-biome with lengthy data collection times take unreasonably long to collect. As an example, the stock gravioli detector has multiple experiments that gradually unlock, some of which take 90 days or more to fully run. "Shores" and "mountains" need 90 days of time above those tiny biomes. Furthermore, I think the biome detection only works for the current vessel so I can't let the experiment slowly run in the background while doing other missions.  (radiation belts and magnetosphere experiments work fine in the background, I think it's just the biomes that are an issue, and maybe only for the very small biomes that get passed over between checks).
5. Modular Launch Pads  work less well than stock launch clamps. I can use high time warp with launch clamps. If I warp too fast with a Modular Launch Pads base, though, timewarp cancels and I see a brief on-screen message about electricity generation and timewarp compatibility that I think is generated by Kerbalism. I've never encountered that timewarp limitation with MLP outside of Kerbalism.
6. I suspect this one is a CKAN issue, not Skyhawk: I tried adding Rational Resources but got many errors in an MM popup on startup. Removing RR fixed things. I didn't try diagnosing that any further because I don't intend a resource intensive playthrough. CKAN insists on installing a config pack with RR and perhaps any config pack overlaps on things that Skyhawk Kerbalism does.

1. Oh ... that's bad, I will take a look as soon as I finish with the little probes EC stuff.

2. Uhmmmm ... I'm far from being an expert on Kerbalism but I think the only way to dial that down is in the options before you start a career/sandbox. If there's something in the configs please let me know.

3.  Guess that's how it is.

4. Better use airplanes for those small biomes, uhmm can't remember if there was an option for the kerbalism update rate, maybe something to do with that.

5. Can't use modular launch pads, sadly can't take a look on this issue, sorry.

6. Maybe has something to do with all of the new resources defined by the Skyhawk Science System.

Edit:
Issue made for the Surveyor experiments problem.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Gupyzer0

[DeadJohn]

19 minutes ago, Gupyzer0 said:

4. Better use airplanes for those small biomes, uhmm can't remember if there was an option for the kerbalism update rate, maybe something to do with that.

[TLDR if I understand Kerbalism correctly per-biome orbital scans have some unintended consequences. It might not be practical for Skyhawk to do anything about it. It's not game-breaking.]

Thanks for your full reply. Regarding the part I quoted, though, I am talking about orbital per-biome experiments. For the atmospheric biomes, sure, build a plane and do some tight turns along the shoreline to stay within a biome; that's fun flying. It's not possible to fly that way when the experiment has to be run in orbit.

The stock gravioli experiment is an example. With Kerbalism Skyhawk and specific tech tree nodes it becomes a high orbit experiment that needs a lot of time above every surface biome to complete. Staying in control of one satellite timewarping for years isn't fun and neglects other events, but it seems like background processing doesn't work perfectly for biomes.

This is a consequence of planets that have detailed biomes. A planet with 12 equal sized biomes and a per-biome experiment that takes 90 days to run will need roughly 90d * 12 = 1080 days to scan the surface even if there are no KSP or Kerbalism glitches. The 100% scan time gets more extreme when some biomes are small rather than being a perfect 1/12 of the surface. A tiny biome that only covers 2% of the surface would theoretically take 4500 days to fully scan from orbit.

[JonnyOThan]

37 minutes ago, DeadJohn said:

[TLDR if I understand Kerbalism correctly per-biome orbital scans have some unintended consequences. It might not be practical for Skyhawk to do anything about it. It's not game-breaking.]

Thanks for your full reply. Regarding the part I quoted, though, I am talking about orbital per-biome experiments. For the atmospheric biomes, sure, build a plane and do some tight turns along the shoreline to stay within a biome; that's fun flying. It's not possible to fly that way when the experiment has to be run in orbit.

The stock gravioli experiment is an example. With Kerbalism Skyhawk and specific tech tree nodes it becomes a high orbit experiment that needs a lot of time above every surface biome to complete. Staying in control of one satellite timewarping for years isn't fun and neglects other events, but it seems like background processing doesn't work perfectly for biomes.

This is a consequence of planets that have detailed biomes. A planet with 12 equal sized biomes and a per-biome experiment that takes 90 days to run will need roughly 90d * 12 = 1080 days to scan the surface even if there are no KSP or Kerbalism glitches. The 100% scan time gets more extreme when some biomes are small rather than being a perfect 1/12 of the surface. A tiny biome that only covers 2% of the surface would theoretically take 4500 days to fully scan from orbit.

This totally makes sense.  I wonder if it would be better to make the gravioli experiment NOT biome-sensitive from space, and instead increasing the science multiplier?  But I guess different experiments can't have different situation multipliers....or can they?

[adriangm44]

On 11/29/2023 at 9:19 PM, Gupyzer0 said:

Issue made for the Surveyor experiments problem.

Any news on this?
If the parts are inherited from Probes Plus, I think I can copy paste the code and change the parts names and mod folder name on MM.

Edited December 12, 2023 by adriangm44

[Gupyzer0]

On 12/12/2023 at 6:26 AM, adriangm44 said:

Any news on this?
If the parts are inherited from Probes Plus, I think I can copy paste the code and change the parts names and mod folder name on MM.

Actually . . . I was working on that and using the Coatl Aerospace (probes plus) experiment def. for the Surveyor problem as you can see here I made a new branch for fixing some of the issues with experiments but sadly I haven't finished/tested it yet as my HDD decided that enough is enough and died some days ago RIP.

My idea is to mod the science rework folder/files to mimic the RO folder structure. Also will drop support for some mods, guess I'm on my way to making my own RO config file at this point. But with no HDD and a baby girl coming in a couple of months, it might just be a forever TODO thing. I will try my best this end of the year and might be buying a new SSD this weekend to resume/speed up development 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Gupyzer0

[adriangm44]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:58 PM, Gupyzer0 said:

But with no HDD and a baby girl coming in a couple of months,

Awwwwwwwww! Congrats! I don't have kids but they say you make the most of it. Cause these are the sweetest times and they go away fast!

On 12/13/2023 at 8:58 PM, Gupyzer0 said:

I will try my best this end of the year and might be buying a new SSD this weekend to resume/speed up development 

I'm eager to follow development! I wish I could give some help but have 0 knowledge in coding, I just copy-paste, add some parts to existing code and stuff like that. But anything, just ask and maybe we can figure it out. 

Cheers!

[Cheesecake]

All centrifuges of Stockalike Station Parts Redux are already unfolded in my VAB. And there is no button to fold them up.
It is probably due to the Kerbalism-config of Skyhawk. If I remove Skyhawk and use the original Kerbalism-config, it works.

Log: https://www.file-upload.net/download-15239023/Player.log.html

[russ0133]

How do I get SAS into my probes? It says in the topic here I can upgrade it but I can't find anywhere in the tech tree to get SAS into my probes.

Every probe has an "Stability Assist" on the SAS part but I can't press T to turn on the SAS? Doing sandbox with "all part upgrades unlocked" seem to do the trick but I can't find it in career mode...

[adriangm44]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:14 AM, russ0133 said:

How do I get SAS into my probes? It says in the topic here I can upgrade it but I can't find anywhere in the tech tree to get SAS into my probes.

Every probe has an "Stability Assist" on the SAS part but I can't press T to turn on the SAS? Doing sandbox with "all part upgrades unlocked" seem to do the trick but I can't find it in career mode...

Every probe will say that. Don't worry, you have to spend quite a bit of science until you get to that tech. I think it was one of the top communications and antennas nodes, the first SAS tier is the one that costs 140 science points (I think)**********

[Hide1nbush1]

Hello I get a error when starting the game and I think there is something wrong with the mod just wanted to let u know. Great mod been enjoying it 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Hide1nbush1
Old problem has been solved

[Cheesecake]

I have a problem with Skyhawks Kerbalism-config and SSPX. The inflatable modules are already inflated in the VAB and cannot be folded together, so I have now replaced the config with the original from Kerbalism. Now it works. However, I can't move any Kerbals into the module afterwards. The modules have Kerbalism living space but no slots for Kerbals. Likewise, I cannot configure any life support systems.
From this point of view, a mix of both configs would be good. But I don't know where to start. Both configs are largely identical.

Can anyone help?

Edited December 31, 2023 by Cheesecake

[Gupyzer0]

On 12/30/2023 at 2:54 AM, Hide1nbush1 said:

Hello I get a error when starting the game and I think there is something wrong with the mod just wanted to let u know. Great mod been enjoying it 

 

Do you have Bluedog Design Bureau installed?

[Hide1nbush1]

20 hours ago, Gupyzer0 said:

Do you have Bluedog Design Bureau installed?

yes

[adriangm44]

I started a new Science mode save and things are going really slowwwwww...

I landed on every biome in Minmus and performed all the available experiments there and I still don't have the Saturn to properly land on the Mun :,)
I have a station in Kerbin making 1 science point every 35 days hahaha and I sent already four Mariner probes to each Eve and Duna respectively.

I'm pushing the envelope really hard for the Mun but it ain't working...
Anyone know how to get science fast?

Edited January 10 by adriangm44

[bigyihsuan]

6 hours ago, adriangm44 said:

I landed on every biome in Minmus and performed all the available experiments there and I still don't have the Saturn to properly land on the Mun :,)

The fun part is actually needing to do Lunar Gemini if you wanna land on the Mun
Thankfully Lunar Gemini has enough dV to do either Mun and Minmus

6 hours ago, adriangm44 said:

Anyone know how to get science fast?

Follow history and spam science probes into every corner of the system as launch windows come up. 

Considering you've got Mariner at this point, you should be somewhere around Gemini and its lander (tier 7). Use that, slap a bunch of science parts, bring some deployable surface experiments if you've got the DLC, and go to town.

Edited January 11 by bigyihsuan

[adriangm44]

7 hours ago, bigyihsuan said:

Considering you've got Mariner at this point, you should be somewhere around Gemini and its lander (tier 7). Use that, slap a bunch of science parts, bring some deployable surface experiments if you've got the DLC, and go to town.

Yes, I am around there, and I'm also trying to keep up with all the nodes of the same tier more or less unlocked. I have the Gemini lander already, and I'm planning on making a Behemoth of science experiments for Kerbin's surface, gather it all and forget about it. 
I just deployed yesterday all EVA surface experiments on Minmus and I'll do it today in Kerbin as well.

But which rocket can bring a Mariner probe into orbit of every planet and moon?

7 hours ago, bigyihsuan said:

Thankfully Lunar Gemini has enough dV to do either Mun and Minmus

Maybe I didn't think it was possible but it's worth a try. I'm playing on a 2.5x scaled system though, but I guess everyone playing Skyhawk also is.

[bigyihsuan]

2 hours ago, adriangm44 said:

But which rocket can bring a Mariner probe into orbit of every planet and moon?

There's always taking a Titan, tacking on a Centaur, and slapping on larger SRBs

2 hours ago, adriangm44 said:

Maybe I didn't think it was possible but it's worth a try.

The mission profile I run is this:

1. Launch the lander to the moon of your choice, with an Agena transfer stage. Park it in orbit around the moon.
2. Launch the lunar transfer module, which is a Centaur D with a GATV passive docking port on top of the avionics unit.
3. Launch a Gemini capsule. rendezvous, and dock with the Centaur. Transfer to the moon.
4. Once in lunar orbit, rendezvous with the lander. Undock Gemini from the Centaur, dock to the lander, transfer crew. Then dock the Gemini back to the Centaur.
5. (optional) Detach the Agena and begin deorbit.
6. Land on the moon.
7. Return to orbit.
8. Gemini-Centaur rendezvous with the lander can, dock to it, transfer, dock back to the Centaur.
9. Dispose of the lander, leave lunar orbit back to Kerbin.
10. Reenter, and enjoy.

The first time I did it I had a Titan LDC launch an Agena-Centaur to orbit, but I found that was massively overkill and you could use just the Centaur instead.

Edited January 11 by bigyihsuan

[DeadJohn]

2 hours ago, adriangm44 said:

Maybe I didn't think it was possible but it's worth a try. I'm playing on a 2.5x scaled system though, but I guess everyone playing Skyhawk also is.

Gemini can reach a 2.5x Mun. These pictures are from a KSRSS playthrough without Skyhawk but it's a similar scale to JNSQ.  Images in spoilers so I don't clutter up the thread.

Gemini Command Module and BDB "Dona" Lander. Titan launcher.

Spoiler

Gemini Direct Ascent that eliminates docking maneuvers. I used a kitbashed lifter with some Saturn I parts, but an alternate Titan lifter with 4 SRBs may be possible, or Titan LDC if you have that unlocked.

Spoiler

 

 

[bigyihsuan]

This is the last time I did a Lunar Gemini. I modified the lander a bit to add surface experiments.

[Krydax]

I am very intrigued on trying out this tech tree. I'm curious if it's still a good experience if I don't use BDB? I do have all of Nertea's mods, as well as things like spaceY, restock+, dmagic orbital science, infernal robotics. 

Also does this mod prune its own empty nodes (if it has them?)

EDIT: Oh, i just realized this mod has BDB as a dependency. Nevermind! I'm not sure if I can handle BDB since I'm not really into the whole historical-missions/parts thing anyway.

Edited January 12 by Krydax

[ltajax]

I keep getting this warning from B9 part switcher when loading up the game. I have BDB installed. I have seen others have had this issue, too, but I can't see what the resolution for it is.

Edited January 20 by ltajax

[Kcin122]

I keep getting a blank tech tree, only the starting node is visible. I also have the same error as the above post. Everything is installed, I even reinstalled. I’m using KSRSS and have gotten other tech tree mods to work. 

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

Although I respect designing the Skyhawk Science System mod specifically to support the massive Bluedog Design Bureau mod, what I question is WHY it depends on a mod as massive as Bluedog Design Bureau (which is an exceptionally huge 2 GB in size when installed)! That isn't good when I can't load the game due to having too much to load, which is a shame, since I quite liked how the tech tree was laid out.

What I'd like to request is to make this mod recommend or suggest the Bluedog Design Bureau instead of requiring it as a dependency. However, if the reason why it requires Bluedog Design Bureau as a dependency is due to functionality, then perhaps you could consider making a standalone version of your mod that wouldn't need to depend on such a massive mod, porting over key files as necessary? (Perhaps you could also consider splitting the mod into a core functions mod, plus some addons for either a standalone experience or working with other popular mods, including the Bluedog Design Bureau mod?)

[bigyihsuan]

11 hours ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

what I question is WHY it depends on a mod as massive as Bluedog Design Bureau

Because the tree was designed around it. This is a hard requirement; otherwise most of the nodes would be either empty or only have 1 or 2 stock parts in them.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

On 3/26/2024 at 11:10 AM, bigyihsuan said:

Because the tree was designed around it. This is a hard requirement; otherwise most of the nodes would be either empty or only have 1 or 2 stock parts in them.

Personally, and no offense, but I get the feeling that it sounds more like YOUR problem than MY problem, since I personally don't mind if tech nodes have only just 1 or 2 parts to unlock (assuming I was just playing stock KSP with no other mods besides yours). Moreover, with the Hide Empty Tech Tree Nodes mod installed, not even empty science nodes would've been a problem for me either.

Besides, I've discovered that BDB doesn't really seem to do much to innovate beyond the limits of what stock KSP does (besides having some different engines with different fuels, such as Hydrazine-powered or Cryogenic Engines, but even then, many other mods offer those as well). In fact, I'm willing to bet that your mod would've worked just fine without BDB, instead using only stock KSP+Expansions' parts, plus a few other parts mods that, unlike BDB, would've actually added new gameplay features to stock KSP (such that stock KSP endgame technologies, like Ion Engines, Nuclear Engines, R.A.P.I.E.R. Engines, and In-Situ Resource Utilization technologies, would've been made to look more like midgame technologies), mods like the following (many of which you may already be quite familiar with):

Spoiler

• Recycled Parts mods (Adds a wide variety of stockalike parts from various older mods, much like BDB, only it's been done a-la-carte style.)
• Dr. Jet's Chop Shop (These add some additional uniquely-designed stockalike parts.)
• Near Future mods (A variety of mods that, like BDB, add in many new parts, but unlike BDB, are geared towards expanding the gameplay further into the future.)
• Far Future Technologies (Same, only that it adds more endgame-level technologies.)
• Impossible Innovations, MEV Heavy Industries (MEV) (Adds even more future-tech parts.)
• Atomic Technologies Inc Junkyard, Kerbal Atomics (Both of these add even more nuclear engines.)
• BurstAtomicThrustModule (Adds afterburner-like effects towards both stock and modded nuclear engines.)
• Cryogenic Engines, CryoEngines Extensions (Adds cryogenic engines that are powered by resources such as Liquid Hydrogen and Liquid Methane, which have better isp than regular liquid fuel engines, but require power to keep their fuel from boiling off.)
• Explodium-Breathing Engines (Adds jet engines that are designed to intake flammable air (such as, presumably, Hydrogen or Methane) from celestial bodies (such as Eve or Jool), and use it along with onboard Oxidizer to produce thrust similar to ordinary Liquid-Fuel-Powered Oxygen-Breathing Jet Engines.)
• TAC Life Support (Adds a life support system, along with many parts that would help keep your spacefaring Kerbals alive.)
• Deep Freeze (Allows Kerbals to be frozen in order to save on life support resources during long interplanetary trips.)
• Global Construction, Keridian Dynamics (KDVA) (Adds parts that allow players to use resources to build spacecraft from orbit, or from the surfaces of alien worlds.)
• Hangar (Adds hangar parts that allow other spacecraft to be unloaded from the game when stored inside, waiting to be loaded back in as desired, sort of like more developed cargo bays.)
• Beamed Power (Adds power beaming parts, which allows power to be beamed between spaceships, such as a solar collection spacecraft located close to the sun beaming power to other spacecraft located further away from the sun.)
• Photon Sailor, M.O.T.H.S. (Adds solar sails, which allow spacecraft to use only natural sunlight to slowly propel themselves across the solar system.)
• Silly Photon Drives (Adds photon drives, which allow spacecraft to use lots of electrical power to produce light, which is then used to push the spacecraft forwards.)
• Ore Engines (Adds engines that are powered by ore.)
• Netherdyne Mass Driver Mod (Adds mass driver/coilgun parts, which can accelerate spacecraft through its rings.)
• Alcubierre Warp Drive (Adds a fairly broken, yet limited, means of faster-than-light travel: an Alcubierre Warp Drive, which produces a warp bubble of limited size that would destroy parts that touch the bubble's edge.)
• Interstellar Warp Drive (Adds a slightly less broken means of faster-than-light travel: another Warp Drive, though this one has restrictions where the drives are less effective near gravity sources.)
• FTL Drive Continued (Adds a far less broken means of faster-than-light travel: Jump Drives and Jump Beacons, which could be used to create jump gate/stargate networks.)
• ESLD Jump Beacons (Adds yet more means of faster-than-light travel: Jump Beacons, which allow nearby ships to jump towards other beacons, though are initially too unstable for Kerbals or various energetic resources to survive the trip.)
• Comfortable Landing (Adds parts that aid in landing safely onto the ground, including some inflatable airbag-like lithobrakes and buoys.)
• Inline Ballutes (Adds balloon parts that, like drogue chutes, help in slowing down descent vehicles as they descend in atmospheres.)
• Ablative Airbrake (Adds an ablator-coated airbrake for controlling spacecraft as they enter a planet's atmosphere.)
• Radial Heat Shields (Adds heat shields that can be attached onto spacecraft radially.)
• TweakScale: Rescale Everything! (Allows existing stock parts, along with other modded parts that make use of this mod, to be rescaled, effectively making existing stock and modded parts flexible enough to be able to effectively fulfill the kinds of functions that far more massive parts mods like BDB would've been able to offer without this mod installed.)
• Procedural Parts, B9 Aerospace Procedural Wings (Offers a handful of parts with lots of flexibility, allowing them to make up for the absence of the wide varieties of part choices that parts mods like BDB would offer.)
• FuelWings (Allows various stock and modded wing parts to carry fuel inside of them.)
• Simple Fuel Switch (Allows fuel tanks to have their contents switched from, say, the base-game Liquid Fuel + Oxidizer, Liquid Fuel only, Monopropellant, and Xenon Gas resources that they were assigned to various other resources, both of the aforementioned kinds, and of modded resources such as Liquid Hydrogen, Liquid Methane, Hydrazine, and Argon Gas.)
• Airships (Adds lighter-than-air parts to better allow a more thorough exploration of such planets as Eve or Jool.)
• Ballast Water Tanks, MOIST! Underwater Technologies (Adds specialized parts, including ballast tanks, to allow for more underwater exploration.)
• SinkEmAll (Adds buoyancy controls to various stock parts.)
• Bargain Rocket Parts (Adds some silly junk parts that span a wide variety of uses, you know, to round out the bunch of parts that were already included.)
• Rusty Star Rockets (Likewise, though with more potential to complement stock parts.)

I'll check later on my PC to see if your mod would indeed work fine with stock + all of these above-mentioned mods (and then some, which all add up to around 17.2 GB within my GameData folder), but no BDB mod, installed. (Also, feel free to add support to any of the above mods, if missing.)

 

P.S.: Oh, and one last thing that I noticed is that your mod might be in conflict with the Community Tech Tree mod, since I'm seeing some messed-up nodes on the tech tree. It might be better for your mod to be able to work with the Community Tech Tree, if present, so that could be overwritten after having been loaded, since a few mods, like Interstellar Fuel Switch, FuelWings, KSP Interstellar Expanded, and Interstellar Technologies - A KSPI-E Expansion, all rely upon the Community Tech Tree mod as a dependency.

Edited March 27 by Shadow Wolf TJC
Forgot to put mod list in a collapsible spoiler box.