How is Laythe a second Kerbin?

[Second Hand Rocket Science]

NOTE: This doesn't fit into a specific category; this would fit into some sort of Kerbal Science category. Any moderators viewing this post, feel free to move it from one category to another.

Laythe... is weird. It has breathable oxygen and liquid water on it's surface. And that shouldn't be possible because of where it is in the solar system. It is a second Kerbin. It shouldn't exist, following the current rules of planets. So, is there a super geeky, sciency, nerdy answer to this? I'd like to know it if there is one. I'm curious.

[RealKerbal3x]

4 minutes ago, Second Hand Rocket Science said:

Laythe... is weird. It has breathable oxygen and liquid water on it's surface. And that shouldn't be possible because of where it is in the solar system. It is a second Kerbin. It shouldn't exist, following the current rules of planets. So, is there a super geeky, sciency, nerdy answer to this? I'd like to know it if there is one. I'm curious.

With how close Laythe is to Jool, I would imagine that its relatively clement temperature is a result of tidal heating, and possibly active plate tectonics/volcanism. We see this happening on Jupiter's innermost moon Io, which is literally covered in hundreds of active volcanoes due to the gravitational tug of its parent body. Given that Jool and its moons are so close together, Laythe probably experiences significant tidal forces from not only Jool but also Vall and Tylo (and perhaps from Pol and Bop too). I think this can definitely account for how warm Laythe appears to be in-game.

As for liquid water, Laythe's oceans are most likely salty - probably much saltier than Earth's (or presumably Kerbin's). Salt lowers the freezing point of water by preventing water molecules from packing together as easily. As for how it got all of that water, perhaps Jool's gravity well captured a bunch of comets early in its history, when Laythe and the other moons were still forming. Or, more likely, maybe Laythe was formed elsewhere in the Kerbol system (probably closer to where Kerbin is now), accumulated its water there, and was later captured by Jool.

The abundance of oxygen in Laythe's atmosphere could imply that it has some kind of simple photosynthetic life in its oceans. While I don't believe this is ever explicitly shown via science results, it seems like the explanation that requires the least assumptions - Occam's razor. Life doesn't necessarily need to have evolved on Laythe - given the relatively low escape velocities of the compact Kerbol system, panspermia from Kerbin is a real possibility. 

Laythe is one of the most interesting bodies in the Kerbol system - I really hope some of this gets explored in more depth in KSP2.

[Second Hand Rocket Science]

Just now, RealKerbal3x said:

With how close Laythe is to Jool, I would imagine that its relatively clement temperature is a result of tidal heating, and possibly active plate tectonics/volcanism. We see this happening on Jupiter's innermost moon Io, which is literally covered in hundreds of active volcanoes due to the gravitational tug of its parent body. Given that Jool and its moons are so close together, Laythe probably experiences significant tidal forces from not only Jool but also Vall and Tylo (and perhaps from Pol and Bop too). I think this can definitely account for how warm Laythe appears to be in-game.

As for liquid water, Laythe's oceans are most likely salty - probably much saltier than Earth's (or presumably Kerbin's). Salt lowers the freezing point of water by preventing water molecules from packing together as easily. As for how it got all of that water, perhaps Jool's gravity well captured a bunch of comets early in its history, when Laythe and the other moons were still forming. Or, more likely, maybe Laythe was formed elsewhere in the Kerbol system (probably closer to where Kerbin is now), accumulated its water there, and was later captured by Jool.

The abundance of oxygen in Laythe's atmosphere could imply that it has some kind of simple photosynthetic life in its oceans. While I don't believe this is ever explicitly shown via science results, it seems like the explanation that requires the least assumptions - Occam's razor. Life doesn't necessarily need to have evolved on Laythe - given the relatively low escape velocities of the compact Kerbol system, panspermia from Kerbin is a real possibility. 

Laythe is one of the most interesting bodies in the Kerbol system - I really hope some of this gets explored in more depth in KSP2.

This is probably the most interesting explanation for this that I've ever heard. Photosynthetic life in Laythe's oceans is... well, out of this world, literally! How cool would it be if the devs slipped some plants onto Laythe's seafloor in a bug patch? I now have to send a mission to the bottom of Laythe's oceans.

[RealKerbal3x]

Just now, Second Hand Rocket Science said:

This is probably the most interesting explanation for this that I've ever heard. Photosynthetic life in Laythe's oceans is... well, out of this world, literally! How cool would it be if the devs slipped some plants onto Laythe's seafloor in a bug patch? I now have to send a mission to the bottom of Laythe's oceans.

Plants on Laythe's seafloor might be interesting. With the lack of light at the bottom of the oceans they wouldn't be living off photosynthesis, but - if Laythe is warmed by tidal heating and volcanism as I speculated - they could make a living around deep-sea geothermal vents.

But because we see no obvious evidence of life on land, the most complex life I would expect to see on Laythe would be single-celled algae. Maybe we could even catch glimpses of algal blooms from space.

[DDE]

KSP lore is pretty patchy.  NovaSilisko once - in forum posts evidently lost to time - indicated that Laythe was supposed to feature Io-like levels of volcanic activity and radiation; this is info is on the similar level as Eve's ocean consisting of Liquid Fuel. Breaking Ground apparently graced it with geysers.

Modmakers have been trying to fill these gaps, such as with bioluminescent clouds. Saltiness as described by @RealKerbal3x is virtually consensus fanon, and various science instrument mods throw in a lot more. For example, ProbesPlus has this to say

Quote

Analysis indicate that the atmosphere is composed mostly of nitrogen, methane, ethane and acetylene

 

[jimmymcgoochie]

I doubt photosynthesis on Laythe would be viable: there's only 4% insolation compared to Kerbin so any hypothetical organism would take 25 times longer to get the same amount of energy than its Kerbin equivalent; Laythe's volcanism (confirmed by the many subsea vents and geysers present when Breaking Ground is installed, as well as the map of Laythe which is littered with volcanic islands) would produce high levels of toxic materials- sulphur, heavy metals, carbon monoxide and so on- which would make life much harder; not to mention the fact that Laythe is right in the middle of Jool's outer van Allen belt and so gets continuously bombarded with lethal levels of radiation- if you've ever used Kerbalism with radiation turned on you'll know that low Laythe orbit has a higher radiation level than Kerbin's inner belt and even with the atmosphere to absorb some of that, the surface of Laythe is still not a pleasant place to stay.

If there was life on Laythe, it would be much more likely to be chemosynthetic and live on those deep-sea hydrothermal vents; being that deep underwater would shield them from any amount of radiation from above, while their biological processes might release a small amount of oxygen which makes its way up to the air above. There's a big difference between 'enough oxygen to let air-breathing engines work', which can be fairly low, and 'enough oxygen to let air-breathing Kerbals work' which would be a lot higher, especially given the lower atmospheric pressure.

[RealKerbal3x]

Just now, jimmymcgoochie said:

There's a big difference between 'enough oxygen to let air-breathing engines work', which can be fairly low, and 'enough oxygen to let air-breathing Kerbals work' which would be a lot higher, especially given the lower atmospheric pressure.

There seems to be enough air on Laythe's surface for kerbals to breathe, since if you remove their helmets they're just fine. Though I'm not sure how realistic this is - perhaps the environment would require an oxygen mask for longer periods spent outside, or particularly strenuous work.

[Second Hand Rocket Science]

3 minutes ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

I doubt photosynthesis on Laythe would be viable: there's only 4% insolation compared to Kerbin so any hypothetical organism would take 25 times longer to get the same amount of energy than its Kerbin equivalent; Laythe's volcanism (confirmed by the many subsea vents and geysers present when Breaking Ground is installed, as well as the map of Laythe which is littered with volcanic islands) would produce high levels of toxic materials- sulphur, heavy metals, carbon monoxide and so on- which would make life much harder; not to mention the fact that Laythe is right in the middle of Jool's outer van Allen belt and so gets continuously bombarded with lethal levels of radiation- if you've ever used Kerbalism with radiation turned on you'll know that low Laythe orbit has a higher radiation level than Kerbin's inner belt and even with the atmosphere to absorb some of that, the surface of Laythe is still not a pleasant place to stay.

If there was life on Laythe, it would be much more likely to be chemosynthetic and live on those deep-sea hydrothermal vents; being that deep underwater would shield them from any amount of radiation from above, while their biological processes might release a small amount of oxygen which makes its way up to the air above. There's a big difference between 'enough oxygen to let air-breathing engines work', which can be fairly low, and 'enough oxygen to let air-breathing Kerbals work' which would be a lot higher, especially given the lower atmospheric pressure.

This is really interesting. I had never considered the van Allen belt of Jool, nor radiation if I'm honest with you. That life you're talking about at the vents is perfectly viable.

8 minutes ago, DDE said:

KSP lore is pretty patchy.  NovaSilisko once - in forum posts evidently lost to time - indicated that Laythe was supposed to feature Io-like levels of volcanic activity and radiation; this is info is on the similar level as Eve's ocean consisting of Liquid Fuel. Breaking Ground apparently graced it with geysers.

Modmakers have been trying to fill these gaps, such as with bioluminescent clouds. Saltiness as described by @RealKerbal3x is virtually consensus fanon, and various science instrument mods throw in a lot more.

I just do wish that Laythe had some more canon lore! It would be incredible.

[Gargamel]

Moved to KSP discussion.

[KerikBalm]

Laythe has no real explanation. Laythe and Tylo are too big relative to Jool to start with.

It's there for gameplay purposes. It gets "grandfathered" in for me in KSP2, but I hope not to see any more bodies this unrealistic.

It's size means tidal heating could give it oceans at the surface, as opposed to Europa which must be icy so that the water isn't exposed to a vacuum, as the body couldn't hold on to enough atmosphere, and it would sublimate away if it was heated enough at the surface.

The atmosphere acceptable due to it's size also allows for greenhouse effects

So the unrealistic size helps... haven't done the calculation to see if tidal heating could do enough, but Jupiter's Io has lava lakes in some places, so maybe.

The islands shapes often resemble cauldera, and BG gave it geysers, so it clearly has significant internal heat 

But it also has polar ice caps... implying solar heating is a major determinant of liquid/ solid states... doesn't make sense...

The oxygen is similarly inexplicable... life around volcanic vents shouldn't cause that... That must be from a high rate of photosynthesis, and the photosynthesis rate at Jool must be low.

[jimmymcgoochie]

6 hours ago, RealKerbal3x said:

There seems to be enough air on Laythe's surface for kerbals to breathe, since if you remove their helmets they're just fine. Though I'm not sure how realistic this is - perhaps the environment would require an oxygen mask for longer periods spent outside, or particularly strenuous work.

I'd call that a KSP code thing, oxygen in air = helmets can be taken off, I don't think the stock game actually cares how much oxygen there is; however the mods I've used that do suggest Laythe's atmosphere has about half as much oxygen as Kerbin's, relatively speaking (about 10-12% I believe?), plus Laythe's sea level pressure is only 70% of Kerbin's too.

[Vanamonde]

There are some things Man was not meant to know. 

[Scarecrow71]

8 hours ago, RealKerbal3x said:

As for how it got all of that water, perhaps Jool's gravity well captured a bunch of comets early in its history, when Laythe and the other moons were still forming.

If tidal forces and heating are what is causing some of thr uniqueness of Laythe, perhaps the rock IS a comet that got trapped by Jool?

[king of nowhere]

We've discovered in recent years that oxygen in an atmosphere can be the result of solar wind stripping it off. You have water, the water is broken by solar radiation into hydrogen and oxygen, hydrogen is lighter and escapes in space, oxygen remains. It's happened on Mars, except the oxygen all went to oxydize stuff around and there's not much in the atmosphere. But the process could generate a high oxygen atmosphere.

Probably not that far from the sun, though

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

11 hours ago, Second Hand Rocket Science said:

NOTE: This doesn't fit into a specific category; this would fit into some sort of Kerbal Science category. Any moderators viewing this post, feel free to move it from one category to another.

Laythe... is weird. It has breathable oxygen and liquid water on it's surface. And that shouldn't be possible because of where it is in the solar system. It is a second Kerbin. It shouldn't exist, following the current rules of planets. So, is there a super geeky, sciency, nerdy answer to this? I'd like to know it if there is one. I'm curious.

Breatheable Oxygen? i thought the oxygen was toxic?? and also the only reason it has liquid water is because of the extremely high salinity of Laythe's oceans (boi contains a lotta salt). hopefully, i simplified this so it sounds like english and not E.T type of language.

Also now i have a question too? How come Tylo and Laythe have relatively small SOI heights when considering  their huge gravitational influence (ex: their high escape velocity?!) but Eeloo (which is barely bigger than mun) has a much higher SOI height considering how low its gravitational influence is on scale. i think the answer might be because since Laythe and Tylo are bound to a much stronger gravitational pull (Jool) which weakens their influence on a spacecraft orbiting either one of them but since Eeloo is extremely far from the sun, Eeloo controls a very high gravitational share which is why we might be able to be in Eeloo's SOI but still be relatively far for its size. now that im done talking about SOI, i just wanted to say a quick thank you to the devs of KSP2 . i saw the recent updates on celestial architecture and it looks totally awesome.     

Edited January 10, 2022 by DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE
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[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

3 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

There are some things Man was not meant to know. 

Kerbal??

[swjr-swis]

The kerbal-breathable atmosphere, its mean temperature, the liquid water - it's all just a fortuitous side-effect of the Kraken creating its habitual planet-wide nesting place.

Laythe is simply an unfinished nest. It's clearly following the same pattern as Kerbin, a much older and finished nest, but the process was interrupted by the Kraken's untimely demise.

 

 

[Second Hand Rocket Science]

On 1/10/2022 at 1:38 AM, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

Breathable Oxygen? I thought the oxygen was toxic?

Who knows, maybe the Kerbals are able to breathe things we aren't able to breathe? Who's to say that Kerbin's atmosphere would be toxic to a human, but not to a Kerbal? We need some graphs of the Anatomy of a Kerbal or something like that. SQUAD needs to clarify how the Kerbals have evolved to breathe and work... or maybe some Wiki page to explain how they work. How do Kerbals survive without drinking or eating? Is the atmosphere of Kerbin nutritious?

[jimmymcgoochie]

On 1/10/2022 at 1:38 AM, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

Also now i have a question too? How come Tylo and Laythe have relatively small SOI heights when considering  their huge gravitational influence (ex: their high escape velocity?!) but Eeloo (which is barely bigger than mun) has a much higher SOI height considering how low its gravitational influence is on scale.

Laythe and Tylo are dwarfed by Jool even though they’re otherwise pretty big- Tylo’s radius is the same as Kerbin’s and Laythe isn’t far off, both have pretty high gravity too but they’re just puny compared to Jool so their SOIs are correspondingly small. Eeloo, on the other hand, sits in glorious isolation so even though it’s small and has low mass and weak gravity, it still has a sizeable SOI.

@Second Hand Rocket Science how do Kerbals survive without eating? The answer is either a) they don’t (if you use life support mods) or b) photosynthesis, or possibly c) they do and you just don’t see it- or did you think all the references to snacks everywhere was just a coincidence?

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

On 1/19/2022 at 11:14 AM, jimmymcgoochie said:

Laythe and Tylo are dwarfed by Jool even though they’re otherwise pretty big- Tylo’s radius is the same as Kerbin’s and Laythe isn’t far off, both have pretty high gravity too but they’re just puny compared to Jool so their SOIs are correspondingly small. Eeloo, on the other hand, sits in glorious isolation so even though it’s small and has low mass and weak gravity, it still has a sizeable SOI.

@Second Hand Rocket Science how do Kerbals survive without eating? The answer is either a) they don’t (if you use life support mods) or b) photosynthesis, or possibly c) they do and you just don’t see it- or did you think all the references to snacks everywhere was just a coincidence?

im pretty sure they might be a photosynthesis and possibly a hybrid of a carnivore.  not sure

On 1/9/2022 at 9:27 PM, swjr-swis said:

The kerbal-breathable atmosphere, its mean temperature, the liquid water - it's all just a fortuitous side-effect of the Kraken creating its habitual planet-wide nesting place.

Laythe is simply an unfinished nest. It's clearly following the same pattern as Kerbin, a much older and finished nest, but the process was interrupted by the Kraken's untimely demise.

 

 

sus

[Second Hand Rocket Science]

On 1/10/2022 at 2:27 AM, swjr-swis said:

The kerbal-breathable atmosphere, its mean temperature, the liquid water - it's all just a fortuitous side-effect of the Kraken creating its habitual planet-wide nesting place.

Laythe is simply an unfinished nest. It's clearly following the same pattern as Kerbin, a much older and finished nest, but the process was interrupted by the Kraken's untimely demise.

This sounds like the Formics in Ender's Game. Only me making that connection?