Is it feasible to send teenagers into space or even space station?

[steve9728]

Friends of my parents brought their young son to our house today. And this little buddy brought a comic book translated from Korean called Space Adventures. I read this set of books when I was his age and they are very well-drawn and educational science comic books. The story is about some kind of cooperation between South Korea and Russia to send a junior high school boy, Maru, and a girl, Soji, to Russia to train with a Russian girl of the same age, Sasha, for the astronaut selection process. They then went through training including basic flight training, weightless flight training, parachute jumping, sea survival training, EVA training and sitting in the back seat of a MiG 25 to critical altitude. As the main character, Maru finally won a place in space and went to ISS as part of the Soyuz crew.

So, is it possible and feasible to send minors into space? Frankly speaking, I'm skeptical about the ability of minors to be trained for overload.

Spoiler

I forgot to take a picture of what his book looks like, the cover of these books in the online shop looks like:

 

[Vanamonde]

I wouldn't try it, myself. 

[Spacescifi]

Why do it?

 

I know lots of kids want to go... but they have little to offer that a real astronaut can do better.

[tater]

I dunno, sometimes I think we should send them to space whether they want to go or not.

 

[cubinator]

An 18 year old went on a New Shepard flight a while back.

I think teenagers can be strong and healthy enough to handle it, especially with training.

[Pthigrivi]

"Asking for a friend"? 

It's probably important that we send young people to space just to understand the physiological effects. Actually... is that ethical? Oh  no now Im torn. 

[Beamer]

An extended stay in space for children that are still growing is probably not a good idea, it might lead to a variety of physiological problems. So working on a space station would probably be a no from a health perspective. Add to that that working (as in a full time job) in any job is generally bad for children from a modern health perspective But a short trip to orbit for a few days, like a future educational school trip, I doubt that would have any adverse long term effects (but IANAD) and could be quite inspirational for a young mind.

No human really has any big advantage when it comes to survival in space, a minute in hard vacuum is just as deadly to a trained astronaut as to a baby. You will always depend on whatever artificial environment is provided for you. A kid couldn't operate an ISS space suit, but why would they need to, just give them a tour in a craft with lots of windows (just like they are doing with the 'tourists' now). Of course they'd have to go with appropriate adult supervision to a station with child proof locks on the doors

 

[adsii1970]

4 hours ago, steve9728 said:

So, is it possible and feasible to send minors into space? Frankly speaking, I'm skeptical about the ability of minors to be trained for overload.

@steve9728, when I first read your question and @Vanamonde's response, I wasn't going to add my comments. But the longer I've allowed the question to stew between the ears, the more I realize the necessity to respond to it. I will admit I am a historian by trade; I currently teach a nice combination of World Civilization and American Foreign Policy; both my M.A. and Ph.D. degrees are focused on U.S. history/U.S. policy history and because of the nature of the beast, there's considerable amount of European background within both degrees because of the colonial/Early Republic fields of research. It is well-established that in nearly every ancient culture extending into the early modern age, minors were in every part of every day life (I'd love to say more about this but it could run afoul of 2.2b since it does discuss cultural views that tend to become political) . Children were not seen as getting in the way, being a bother, being a liability, or sent off to go play. In some cultures, children as young as five had some sort of domestic duties, and at times, they even served in battle as soldiers, sailors, or even monarchs - a trend that still continues today although it was abandoned in the West by the end of the 19th Century, C.E.

Spoiler

Please keep in mind I have a pretty bad migraine headache today. Sometimes my organization skills are not the best and my thought process is about as clear as looking through a bottle of maple syrup. I also had two appointments with my medical team - one was good and one was not so good. So... yeah.

As I continued to think about the question being asked, I find it essential to divide minors into two broad categories: teenagers and not-teens (for the lack of a better term. Not to be arbitrary, I will use the "standard" view of 12 years of age through 18 (often referred as adolescence) as the "teenage" model. "Not-teens" will include any child 11 years old and below. I am also assuming that your question is not referring to space tourism, but as in being a part of a designated space mission. With that said, I also find the need to break it into three parts:

Is it possible and feasible to send minors into space within the inner planets of our Solar System?

No, it is currently not possible or feasible to send any minor in space. There is no need to send minors into space now or in the near future.

• As long as we are not into Lunar or Martian colony building, there is absolutely no reason to send minors into space.
• We are not currently planning any missions to the outer planets of the Solar System, where such spaceflight within the inner Solar System might be beneficial to teenage astronauts (for experience purposes).
• We still do not fully understand the long term effects of spaceflight on astronauts who have had extended stays on the ISS. We do not understand how long duration exposure to radiation might affect the development of a minor.

Until we understand the risks of radiation outside of Earth's magnetic  safety zone, the damage that form of radiation causes to the human body, how it affects growth and development, and how to mitigate or overcome it with technology, we do not need to callously expose minors to the harshness of space. This is one of the many reasons we have yet to develop permanent colonies on the Moon or have sent humans to explore the surface of Mars.

However, once we begin to actively colonize the Moon and Mars, we will have to allow minors into space and onto both bodies. I say this because we already have a model of how colonization of other worlds will look like within human history: the colonization of North and South America and Australia. We know there will be a high human cost to putting a permanent human presence on both. Right now, with our level of technology, and with what we don't know, I think we are probably - and this is a very optimistic estimate - at least fifty years before we see any real effort being made to colonize either place. Sadly, I do no think I will see colonization of either body within my lifetime - I'm already 52.

With what we are doing in LEO currently, there's no pressing need to send minors into space.

Is it possible and feasible to send minors into space within the outer planets of our Solar System?

No, it is currently not possible or feasible to send any minor into space (for all the reasons listed above).

However, once we have established, functioning colonies on the Moon and Mars, I do think it makes sense to have teenagers on outer Solar System missions for a variety of reasons. But this is all under the theory that the issues with radiation have been overcome, or at the very least, mitigated. As we know, FTL travel will probably remain the food of science fiction for a few more decades, so this means any missions to the outer planets will use traditional propulsion/engines technologies.

• Travel between Earth and Jupiter could take from two to six years - one way. One of the things many of our favorite science fiction television shows and movies leave out is there is a lot of dead time in spaceflight. This would give an experienced crew a perfect opportunity to train a younger crew (think teenagers) while on such a mission. While we all got a few good laughs out of the cheesy movie, Space Camp, had that been a real experience, NASA would have a young experienced crew to work with had the shuttle program not had abruptly ended. Again, teenagers are capable of a lot more than most (adults) are willing to give them credit for, sadly. Four years of training in a "hands-on" and "on the job training" environment would have a wealth of benefits.
• In 2091, Saturn will be only 8.03 AUs from Earth, reducing travel time to this planet significantly. Right now, it takes between three to seven years - one way. In 2091, it would take between two and a half years to four years. This is still a lot of dead time that could be used to train teenage astronauts.
• Each planet and planetoid is further out and adds significant travel time. Having teenage astronauts onboard not only benefits a space program through real training (which is always better than anything one gets on a simulator) but could provide valuable assistance, would have much better endurance (younger people have better endurance and are usually in better physical shape than older people), and would be an asset to the older crew.
• Not-teens would have no business or real function being sent on such missions.

Is it possible and feasible to send minors into space beyond our own Solar System?

No, it is currently not possible or feasible to send any minor into space (for all the reasons listed in the first list, within the inner planets of our Solar System).

However, if we are going to venture beyond the Solar System to colonize these "Earth-like" planets thus far discovered in the habitable zones orbiting distant stars, even with FTL travel, there's one thing that cannot be overlooked. It is going to be a necessity for not only minors to go into space but it will be essential to train them to become trained members of the crew. They will need to be fully prepared, by early adulthood, to replace aging astronauts no longer capable of performing their assigned duties or replacing astronauts killed during interstellar flight.

• To be blunt, putting minors in space is going to be a necessity if humanity's destination is going to be beyond our Solar System. Even the fruity guys on the History Channel point to the need of generational space ships where entire families (including children) are put into large vessels and sent to star systems light years away. So, yes, in this case minors MUST be a part of the crew.

 

[tater]

If kids in general are not compatible with the space environment, we'll have to build a better environment. We know embryology works at 1 g, we have no data at <1g. So The Moon and Mars? Might be a non-starter for kids to properly develop.

Have to first do nonhuman mammal experiments to establish boundary values. Maybe 0.38g is enough (or close), and it is worth risking Mars colonies. If everything goes haywire <0.5g, then O'Neill colonies it is.

In the meantime, teens need to clean their rooms, or we send them to space.

[steve9728]

If I remember correctly, the little boy Maru in the comic book even fart in the Orlan training suit during the EVA training in the pool. If he knows the ISS is already quite a number of things couldn't find, I bet he definitely would make more pranks hahaha

I've been thinking about this a bit more, and I think that getting teenagers into space is an inevitable event in the historical dimension. But it's "future enough": probably everyone on this forum, including me, a twenty-three-year-old college graduate, will not live to see it. Currently, let's say this little buddy who was born to be astronaut and he is capable of doing everything in training and has full approval of the crew. To be a little offensive, the cost of making a special space suit and EVA suit if the mission needed for the kid might not be proportional to the contribution he could bring to space. After all, the title of "first underage astronaut" seems to have nothing more to offer than a certain political connotation and an inspiration for more 'little troublemakers' to tell their parents "I want to be an astronaut too". And I can't imagine how 'lively' the resulting possible moral debate would be.

[SunlitZelkova]

I think regardless of technical feasibility, in the ethics dimension it should be treated like the military. 17 is fine with parental permission, obviously at 18 you’re an adult and can decide for yourself. Maybe 16, I’m not sure what the consensus is on the minimum age for enlistment.

Allowing wavers for younger ages would be unethical, IMO. Sending 12-15 year olds into space regardless of what is considered reasonable for employment in other fields because “they can and there could be benefits” is identical to sending 12-15 year olds into combat because “they can and there could be benefits”. The circumstances don’t matter- there are certain things children don’t do and only adults do, for a variety of reasons.

Generation ships and space colonies are another question though. My argument against children in space only applies to *exploration/“astronaut”/crew for exploration purposes* as these are more like normal professions with all of the problems that they generate.

[Beamer]

18 hours ago, steve9728 said:

If I remember correctly, the little boy Maru in the comic book even fart in the Orlan training suit during the EVA training in the pool. If he knows the ISS is already quite a number of things couldn't find, I bet he definitely would make more pranks hahaha

I've been thinking about this a bit more, and I think that getting teenagers into space is an inevitable event in the historical dimension. But it's "future enough": probably everyone on this forum, including me, a twenty-three-year-old college graduate, will not live to see it. Currently, let's say this little buddy who was born to be astronaut and he is capable of doing everything in training and has full approval of the crew. To be a little offensive, the cost of making a special space suit and EVA suit if the mission needed for the kid might not be proportional to the contribution he could bring to space. After all, the title of "first underage astronaut" seems to have nothing more to offer than a certain political connotation and an inspiration for more 'little troublemakers' to tell their parents "I want to be an astronaut too". And I can't imagine how 'lively' the resulting possible moral debate would be.

I'm 1 year away from Abraham and I would bet a decent wager on the fact that I will see the first minor in space. It will be in a tourist capacity, and it might not be a full orbit the first time. We had a 18 year old in space as mentioned before and he basically won the seat because he was the youngest applicant, it's only a matter of time before some lucky kid gets picked by a rich space jock who thinks it will be good for promoting his business. Maybe that sounded a bit more cynical than I intended, I wholly applaud the rich space jocks of our time inviting us lesser mortals along on their little pleasure flights

Dang, I did it again didn't I?

But at 23, barring complete economic/societal collapse or natural ELE, you're going to see a lot more happen in space than a teenage tourist. Think permanently manned moon base, multiple ISS sized space stations in LEO, that sort of thing. Tourism will probably still be reserved for the very rich or terribly lucky for decades so I wouldn't place a bet on you yourself being able to book a trip, but your grand children very well might.

A lot of the more pessimistic folk seem to forget that it's not just the US and Russia building Ziggurats anymore. there's money involved now. China is making big strides with their station, India wants to get involved on the small sat commercial market, successful private enterprises like SpaceX and Rocket Labs add more pressure to that market. Once they have built up know-how with that and start eyeing the tourism market (some already do), Europe can't afford to stay behind anymore either (I hope...) and I think things will start moving fast. Fast enough that even the (inevitable) first civilian accident won't hold us back anymore.

The first space race was the equivalent of the Wright brothers and their ilk. If SpaceX gets their Starship off the ground as intended it might very well turn out to be the space equivalent of the de Havilland Comet.

 

[kerbiloid]

It's feasible.

1 t of teenagers can replace 1 t  of any other ballast.

[mikegarrison]

20 hours ago, Beamer said:

We had a 18 year old in space as mentioned before and he basically won the seat because he was the youngest applicant

He got that seat because his dad was rich and paid for it.

I expect that eventually teens will be launched to space for short-duration stays.

We have no data on whether extended micro-gravity is any worse for teenagers than it is for adults, but there are reasons to suspect it might be. Teenage bones are still growing. However, I expect that short stays are probably fine. But they will probably want to slowly expand the envelope -- a couple of days, then a week, then a couple of weeks, etc.

If people are serious about colonizing space, then eventually we're going to have to understand how it affects kids. Perhaps with studies of young non-human animals first.

[tater]

27 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

If people are serious about colonizing space, then eventually we're going to have to understand how it affects kids. Perhaps with studies of young non-human animals first.

Indeed.

You'd think the colonize Mars types would want to send some sort of tethered station up, with animals in each side (something they could take care of using an automated system) at 0.38g. Then look at the results. Actually, they could have a 1g area, and a 0.38g section, that way they control for the radiation environment, etc.

[kerbiloid]

32 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

I expect that eventually teens will be launched to space for short-duration stays.

No drinks, parental cams everywhere, and even the spinning bottle tends to overturn due to the known effect.

What should they wish there? Two days of hangover without a party.

32 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

We have no data on whether extended micro-gravity is any worse for teenagers than it is for adults

We do. Their bones are growing and need calcium.
While zero-G means speedy calcium removal, something quite the opposite.
Traumatism and fragility.

32 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

Teenage bones are still growing.

Growing together as well.

32 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

a couple of days, then a week, then a couple of weeks, etc.

, until the bone halves have reattached enough to withstand the 20 g in case of ballistic descent.

32 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

If people are serious about colonizing space, then eventually we're going to have to understand how it affects kids. Perhaps with studies of young non-human animals first.

We did it. With birds and others. It affects badly. People should reproduce the Earth conditions where they live.

1 minute ago, tater said:

Actually, they could have a 1g area, and a 0.38g section, that way they control for the radiation environment, etc.

+1

10 teens in every section to compare them to the healthy control group.

Edited October 23, 2022 by kerbiloid

[tater]

^^^ I was thinking mice or something to start.

at 4 rpm, a 56m radius tether would have a 1g section at the outside.  21.5m from the hub is a can with mice (whatever) at 0.38g. Could be dead weight on the other side, or 2 more experiment cans of equal mass.

Radius can be smaller and more RPMs, the comfort level on RPM for spincalc is presumably based on humans (head height vs floor, and issues because your radius changes doing anything).
 

http://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/SpinCalc/

[magnemoe]

Sending some up on an few day trip like the tourist dragon flights would not be an issue, one or more month long stay on an space station, no  way more with an trip to Mars. Even Mars gravity could easy be an serious issue, lots of testing in needed.
Use pigs for testing they are human sized can be eaten after the experiment.  
 

[mikegarrison]

43 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

We do. Their bones are growing and need calcium.
While zero-G means speedy calcium removal, something quite the opposite.
Traumatism and fragility.

This is speculation, not data. You get data by sending actual teens up into space. (Or young animals of some kind.)

[Beamer]

5 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

He got that seat because his dad was rich and paid for it.

No, not really. The guy who actually won the auction got cold feet (or as the official reading goes: opted for a later flight). They then needed to pick a replacement, and they specifically chose to pick the youngest person who had entered into the auction to get the "youngest person ever in space" PR scoop. Yes his dad is rich, yes they paid millions, but if he hadn't been the youngest person in the auction, he would not have gotten the seat.

 

[razark]

Is it feasible?  Yes.  Teenagers are slightly lighter than the standard human payload.

Is it a good idea?  Speaking as a parent, yes.  Hell yes!  Launching teenagers into space is a damn good idea, and I've got some volunteers you can start with!

 

How does outer space affect teenagers as opposed to adult humans?  We have no data as of yet, and we will continue to have no idea until we get beyond letting measly little details like "ethics" stand in our way.  Let's start lobbing those little <redacted>s right up there and find out.

Spoiler

You cleaned up after making a sandwich?  Great, here's you parachute.

Maybe if you remembered to reenter the <redacted> mayonnaise in to fridge, you'd get a <redacted> heat shield, too!

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by razark

[kerbiloid]

7 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

This is speculation, not data. You get data by sending actual teens up into space. (Or young animals of some kind.)

This is what is seen from several orbital incubators with quail eggs and chickens flown on biosats and Mir.

And the decalcination (and as a result weakening the bones and the muscles, including the heart) is almost first thing which the adult spacenauts face in zero-G after stopping vomit, literally in days.

7 hours ago, tater said:

^^^ I was thinking mice or something to start.

The quail eggs were to fly in the planned centrifuge ISS biomodule until its cancellation.

Edited October 24, 2022 by kerbiloid

[tater]

29 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

This is what is seen from several orbital incubators with quail eggs and chickens flown on biosats and Mir.

And the decalcination (and as a result weakening the bones and the muscles, including the heart) is almost first thing which the adult spacenauts face in zero-G after stopping vomit, literally in days.

The quail eggs were to fly in the planned centrifuge ISS biomodule until its cancellation.

Yeah, needs to be a centrifuge. Also, ideally a mammal I would think, but bird might be an easy first start as the habitat might be easier to raise a few generations.

[kerbiloid]

11 minutes ago, tater said:

to raise a few generations.

One of the troubles was in getting a next generation, iirc.

[tater]

15 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

One of the troubles was in getting a next generation, iirc.

In 0g? Yeah. Should be fairly easy in mild gravity simulation.