Should modding support be added in late in the road map?

[mcwaffles2003]

Looking at https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/games-kerbal-space-program-2, it seems to me that it is implied that mod support will be added in during the last phase of early access:

To me, I get why this would make sense, as you would want people playing the stock game to get the greatest amount of feedback on it before people start playing on modded playthroughs. Not to mention, mods would be living in a period of guaranteed instability as the game in early access will likely be undergoing massive code revisions that may really damage mod compatibility. That said though, a large point in early access is not only to find bugs in the game but also to get better direction for intercept on where it should prioritize development and wouldn't allowing modders to make mods and seeing the individual mod popularity really help guide that effort as well as offer solutions to the devs ways to tackle the demands brought by the players as we discover which parts each of us find lacking or needing work?

I am not a modder, I can barely program in Python and it has been forever since I've written in C, so I am speaking out of my depth. But to those more informed in this community on this matter, what do your insights lead you to think about this? Is it better to leave modders out of the early access until it nears its end or should they be included in it closer to the start and why?

[Domonian]

They already specified that modding will be there from day one. Either in the interviews with Shadowzone or Matt Lowne, or in Feature Episode 6 itself, I can't remember. 

[razark]

I think they've stated how opposed they are to modding and that they will be doing everything they can to prevent those meddlers from interfering with what they intend the game to be.

Quote

Modding: We expect modders to dig into KSP2 on day one. We recognize that the modding community has played a big role in the longevity of KSP, and we continue to be impressed by the mods that are released. The team aims to ensure that over the course of Early Access, the sequel is even more mod-friendly and release updates aimed to support the modding community. Additionally, the team will be collecting feedback and analyzing how to continue to improve modding support with the community. 

 

[MechBFP]

I think they are likely referring to a more standardized approach to modding in the last phase that will allow the more casual players to access mods.

However before that stage modding is gonna be like KSP, you have to know what you are doing to do it properly, or you have to know that 3rd party tools exist that can help you (like CKAN).

[Superfluous J]

It doesn't matter if they support it or not. Modders gonna mod.

 

[regex]

3 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

It doesn't matter if they support it or not. Modders gonna mod.

Modders find a way.

[mcwaffles2003]

Guys, I get that modders gunna mod and that the devs as a whole genuinely encourage modding. I don't think I'm being crazy though in how I am interpreting the information presented on that page. So do you guys think it simply means they won't present the specific modding tools and standards until late in EA? Do you guys think I'm misinterpreting the information shown and mod tools/support will be immediately available? In the road map it simple says the final stage is multiplayer, but in the text right below the map that describes the stages "multiplayer/modding" is stuck together.. 

Cause this:

6 hours ago, razark said:

Modding: We expect modders to dig into KSP2 on day one. We recognize that the modding community has played a big role in the longevity of KSP, and we continue to be impressed by the mods that are released. The team aims to ensure that over the course of Early Access, the sequel is even more mod-friendly and release updates aimed to support the modding community. Additionally, the team will be collecting feedback and analyzing how to continue to improve modding support with the community. 

Seems to be in conflict with what is shown on the roadmap, just wishing language around this stayed more clear.

[GoldForest]

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Guys, I get that modders gunna mod and that the devs as a whole genuinely encourage modding. I don't think I'm being crazy though in how I am interpreting the information presented on that page. So do you guys think it simply means they won't present the specific modding tools and standards until late in EA? Do you guys think I'm misinterpreting the information shown and mod tools/support will be immediately available? In the road map it simple says the final stage is multiplayer, but in the text right below the map that describes the stages "multiplayer/modding" is stuck together.. 

Cause this:

Seems to be in conflict with what is shown on the roadmap, just wishing language around this stayed more clear.

 

Quote

The team aims to ensure that over the course of Early Access, the sequel is even more mod-friendly and release updates aimed to support the modding community. Additionally, the team will be collecting feedback and analyzing how to continue to improve modding support with the community. 

"Over the course" to me means that modding will be updated along with every major update and will get its own minor updates. "Release updates", plural, so this supports my previous sentence. 

Also, we're not seeing the full roadmap. Multiplayer isn't the final stage, as you put it. If you look at the far right, you see a title card that is mostly 'off screen' for lack of better words. That very well may be an update dedicated solely to modding, but I doubt it as modding support kind of needs to be put in along with the other updates. 

For instance, it would be far easier to put modding capability and access to colonies during the colony update instead of doing it months down the line. Same with interstellar capabilities and other aspects.

Modding can't be an afterthought, nor can it be a 'down the road' update, at least imo. It has to be put in alongside other code so that the doors are easily available. 

So, to answer your question, with my opinions: Modding support will be added in at launch of EA, and then expanded upon with every update. An update solely dedicated to modding may be down the line, because again, we're not seeing the full roadmap, the roadmap doesn't end at multiplayer, we're just seeing it UP TO multiplayer. Said modding update may add tools making modding easier, which would be nice as hell tbh. 

[mcwaffles2003]

11 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Also, we're not seeing the full roadmap. Multiplayer isn't the final stage, as you put it. If you look at the far right, you see a title card that is mostly 'off screen' for lack of better words. That very well may be an update dedicated solely to modding, but I doubt it as modding support kind of needs to be put in along with the other updates. 

I was wondering what that next iteration was supposed to be and having it be mod support makes sense.

 

12 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

"Over the course" to me means that modding will be updated along with every major update and will get its own minor updates. "Release updates", plural, so this supports my previous sentence. 

This is pretty reassuring. I guess when I read through that my brain wasn't reading fully rationally.

13 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Modding can't be an afterthought, nor can it be a 'down the road' update, at least imo. It has to be put in alongside other code so that the doors are easily available. 

So, to answer your question, with my opinions: Modding support will be added in at launch of EA, and then expanded upon with every update. An update solely dedicated to modding may be down the line, because again, we're not seeing the full roadmap, the roadmap doesn't end at multiplayer, we're just seeing it UP TO multiplayer. Said modding update may add tools making modding easier, which would be nice as hell tbh.

I agree that it should be a from the start thing and I agree with your rationale.

[MrAndroPC]

I think would be fine if they're will make and give access to modding API before mod support will release for gamers (two-three months before release). It's allow to recreate/adapt some important mods for base game/KSP1 and create new ones.

But anyway better to have mod support since early access, maybe then community will do promised by devs even faster than devs.

Edited October 24, 2022 by MrAndroPC

[Kerbart]

Maybe it's meant in a literal sense: modding support. You can mod from day 1, but don't expect fleshed out API documentation and SDK's until all other functionality is there. First of all, only then will someone on the dev team have time to work on it, and secondly up until that point things can change based on feedback.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Maybe it's meant in a literal sense: modding support. You can mod from day 1, but don't expect fleshed out API documentation and SDK's until all other functionality is there. First of all, only then will someone on the dev team have time to work on it, and secondly up until that point things can change based on feedback.

Agree and that makes sense to as later features will expand that can be modded. 

[darthgently]

12 hours ago, razark said:

I think they've stated how opposed they are to modding and that they will be doing everything they can to prevent those meddlers from interfering with what they intend the game to be.

I love some nice, well tuned, humorous sarcasm with my coffee. Seriously, thanks, this made my morning

[Scarecrow71]

When it comes to modding, all I want to know is if someone will help me figure it out so I can do some of my own modding.

[Superfluous J]

17 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

So do you guys think it simply means they won't present the specific modding tools and standards until late in EA?

This is what I think. I expect basic modding support will be in the game from day 1 - a Gamedata folder or whatever where you can put mods and they'll load but it'll be up to the modder to do all the work making their mod work with the game.

Maybe there will be some APIs. Maybe they'll be documented. But I expect an integrated version of ModuleManager (which is what I - as a weekend warrior modder with no real coding talent - am most wanting) is a long way off.

[regex]

25 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

But I expect an integrated version of ModuleManager (which is what I - as a weekend warrior modder with no real coding talent - am most wanting) is a long way off.

If they don't have a patch manager at the beginning of early access then I highly doubt they'll add one to the application; that, I expect, will be one of the first modding targets on release and if there's already one out there that everyone uses then why would the devs add a new one to supplant it?

[GoldForest]

15 minutes ago, regex said:

If they don't have a patch manager at the beginning of early access then I highly doubt they'll add one to the application; that, I expect, will be one of the first modding targets on release and if there's already one out there that everyone uses then why would the devs add a new one to supplant it?

Because a built in MM would be better than needing to have MM added by a mod.

Remember, they want to make KSP 2 more modding friendly. Having a built in MM will definitely do that.

I feel like they will already have a version MM in the code, since again, more moddable. 

[regex]

4 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Because a built in MM would be better than needing to have MM added by a mod.

Why spend dev time writing a tool that the community has already created and can maintain, and add to as needed? That makes no sense, you're just spending time and money doing something someone else already is.

4 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

I feel like they will already have a version MM in the code, since again, more moddable.

I certainly hope so. Having a patch manager available day 1 will benefit everyone, including Intercept.

[Bej Kerman]

11 minutes ago, regex said:

Why spend dev time writing a tool that the community has already created and can maintain

A KSP 2 analog of MM doesn't exist yet? Guaranteed support from the devs?

[regex]

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

A KSP 2 analog of MM doesn't exist yet?

If they don't have one built in I give it a month, tops, after release before we see a community patch manager. E: Maybe two, never know how hard it'll be to hook into the game.

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Guaranteed support from the devs?

Why spend time and money supporting something you don't have to?

Edited October 25, 2022 by regex

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, regex said:

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Guaranteed support from the devs?

Why spend time and money supporting something you don't have to?

Did Take Two have to start KSP 2 in the first place when KSP 1 works fine enough?  Let's face it, "why do x if you don't have to" is a question that holds 0 water.

[regex]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

Did Take Two have to start KSP 2 in the first place when KSP 1 works fine enough?  Let's face it, "why do x if you don't have to" is a question that holds 0 water.

Huh, then I gotta wonder why the KSP1 team never added a patch manager to the game.

As for making a whole new game, well, I'll bet you a full team of experienced Unity devs writing it mostly from scratch would create a far more performant game than Squad did. KSP1 had ... issues.

[GoldForest]

7 minutes ago, regex said:

Huh, then I gotta wonder why the KSP1 team never added a patch manager to the game.

As for making a whole new game, well, I'll bet you a full team of experienced Unity devs writing it mostly from scratch would create a far more performant game than Squad did. KSP1 had ... issues.

Because MM came around before the devs could impliment one.

That goes without saying, seeing as KSP1 was a homebrew project that grew into an Indie game/AA game. A lot of stuff they wanted to add couldn't because past Squad kind of screwed over present/future Squad.

Also, to kind of further expand on your already answered question, having a in game patch manager is FAR better than having one that is a mod. Module Manager can do a lot, but there's still a lot that it can't do because it simply doesn't have access. Having an in-game patch manager, built into the system day one, will get far better access to KSP 2 than MM could ever dream of in KSP 1. It's not a waste of time and money, because A) The devs WANT more moddability, therefore a patch manager is kind of required, and B) the community wants it. 

[Superfluous J]

35 minutes ago, regex said:

Why spend dev time writing a tool that the community has already created and can maintain, and add to as needed? That makes no sense, you're just spending time and money doing something someone else already is.

They spent KSP1 dev time writing these things that the community had already created and maintained. Many of them continue to be maintained years after. This is an incomplete list of course:

• FAR
• Resource gathering (many different mods)
• PreciseNode
• Kerbal Alarm Clock
• I'm getting sick of thinking of things but 4 is enough I think.

The existence of a mod doing the thing should not prevent the dev team from making an official version of that thing. Though I do agree it should be available from the start if only so the inevitable mod version can expand on it, instead of being a totally separate thing.

[regex]

Fair points, but one note:

2 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

• FAR

This was never part of KSP. Ferram did some amazing work but none of his code made it into the game AFAIK. IIRC NathanKell did a sort of "cube drag" model for the revamp around 1.0 (which was fantastic for the stock game) but it lacked the sophistication of FAR (and the later voxel drag model that Ferram wrote; I remember testing that late one night and watching it divide up a rocket, really cool stuff).

(I also have to wonder if the stock implementation of PreciseNode ever allowed you to directly input delta-V numbers, I never played with it but that was a big reason I took that one on)

2 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Though I do agree it should be available from the start if only so the inevitable mod version can expand on it, instead of being a totally separate thing.

Hopefully no one has to expand on it. I heard something about Lua scripting? Maybe that was a fever dream? That would solve a lot of issues for the casual modder and would probably even obviate the need for a patch manager.