Get rid of the stupid launcher, nobody likes them and they do nothing but ruin the gaming experience.

[HebaruSan]

5 hours ago, Lisias said:

No, it was not a bug on the mods.

It absolutely is.

[swjr-swis]

3 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

It absolutely is.

It would help if we knew why this is so absolutely true...

[swjr-swis]

9 hours ago, Lisias said:

When in doubt, we always should do exactly the same as KSP does

I don't know that I go along with this statement. Plenty of examples of KSP not exactly doing the right thing. But thank you for taking the time to show the results of your investigation on this.

It hasn't affected me personally - I keep a set of archived clean installs of old versions, so I won't have a launcher-contaminated setup ever. I assumed by now everyone did, to be honest, *especially* people using mods. It has to have been the single most repeated tip given in forums, here and on Steam.

Silly question perhaps: has anyone tried reverting to the 1.12.3 install on Steam? It's right there in the list of betas...

[Zefnoly]

4 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

It absolutely is.

Then the game itself has the bug too. It was writing files to the PDLauncher folder too. Steam would litterally launch the game in such a way it thinks the PD folder is the root folder. This means the REAL bug is within the way steam is launching the game along with the launcher itself. This folder should not be considered a root folder regardless and just shows that the addition of this launcher seem rushed.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Zefnoly
Typo

[Bej Kerman]

On 11/4/2022 at 11:39 AM, Deddly said:

On 11/4/2022 at 10:25 AM, jwenting said:

Nobody liked the launcher

I liked it

Yes, you liked it, but that doesn't change the fact people don't get a choice to forego the launcher in the first place. Whether people like it or not is, in almost every single way, irrelevant as long as people aren't getting a choice.

[HebaruSan]

51 minutes ago, Zefnoly said:

Then the game itself has the bug too.

Yes, it clearly does.

[Lisias]

6 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

It absolutely is.

We are going to need to agree on disagree on this.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Lisias
damn grammars.

[HebaruSan]

Here's a previous occurrence of a user encountering the same bug in a few mods before the launcher existed:

My fix pull requests were merged, and LGG released a new PatchManager, so that mod no longer has this issue, but RSSVE hasn't done a new release, so it would still be affected.

Notably, the word "bug" was not controversial in that previous conversation.

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Yes, you liked it, but that doesn't change the fact people don't get a choice to forego the launcher in the first place. Whether people like it or not is, in almost every single way, irrelevant as long as people aren't getting a choice.

IMHO, the only problem was the absolute absence of a way to do not use it.

I see why PD found value on it, I see where they want to go and I think they are not wrong. I think the problem is that they missed an interesting opportunity here: to add value to the user too. Had they added some compelling feature to the users, and most people would probably still complain about it (people do what people do, we love complaining! ) but fewer people would had tried to get rid of it.

One of such features is auto-settings. With so many years of experience stored on this Forum, they have the means of creating a component that would analyse the user's machine, and propose (and auto implement, with rollback!) changes on the settings.cfg. Lower textures, less details on the 3d models, simple terrain, delta physics, etc. It's a pain in the SAS to get this right for people not using top notch machines (max everything out and you are done).

Not to mention that you need to load the game first, and if you are on an overload machine, it will be a pain. Having an external tool to do that would improve things considerably, and a lot of people would embrace the Launcher if it would do this for them.

We need someone there thinking on a Win-Win Negotiation mindset: "oukey, I want users to use this, and I know why I want them to use this. But how can I make this appealing for them in exchange?".

And, of course, offer an option to go back to the older ways for die hard old-farts like me that like to do things low-level - I don't even install KSP by Steam Client anymore, I have bash scripts that build test beds automatically using DepotDownload (yeah, I'm have issues, I know).

On a side note, the PDLauncher is remaining in memory when KSP runs, taxing the GPU's VRAM. People with modest hardware that were able to play the game now are getting screwed up by lagging due VRAM exhaustion (what makes the GPU driver to store textures on the CPU's land, where things are some orders of magnitude slower to access).

And this is a compelling reason to do not use the PDLancher even with nicer user features added: it shrinks the current user base, shrinking potential revenues. Please consider this, PD.

 

4 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

I don't know that I go along with this statement. Plenty of examples of KSP not exactly doing the right thing. But thank you for taking the time to show the results of your investigation on this.

A bad standard is better than no standard at all. It's usually better to everybody err together than everybody trying to do the right thing by themselves.

Imagine a foreign neighbourhood where people walks on the left side of the sidewalks because this is what they do on their homeland. Okey, they are "wrong" but what's best - to walk on the left side with them when you need to cross that neighbourhood, or to insist on doing the "right" thing and disrupting the flow?

Same thing on KSP - I tend to do what KSP is doing and err together. There's no point on "doing the right thing" if KSP is not doing it. So if it is working for KSP right now, it will work for me too. And if KSP don't do the 'right thing' on something , it may have a reason for doing so, and it's usually safer to follow suit. (since I didn't worked on it on the development time, I don't know if there's a reason for KSP doing things this way - perhaps working around a bug on Unity? some closed source library that can't be fixed? whatever)

Once you get experienced on maintaining legacy systems (and KSP is a legacy system by now), you learn than fixing non-functional bugs more than often ends up creating functional bugs.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Lisias
tyops, tyops, tyops everywehre!!! - and better pharsing. Posting on working hours can be challenging sometimes...

[Deddly]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Yes, you liked it, but that doesn't change the fact people don't get a choice to forego the launcher in the first place. Whether people like it or not is, in almost every single way, irrelevant as long as people aren't getting a choice.

It's all cool, Bej. I said a couple of posts above the one you quoted that, although it doesn't affect me because I don't play KSP on Steam, it certainly sounds frustrating. I just wanted to refute the claim that nobody liked the original launcher because none of us can speak for the entire community. I found the old one pretty useful, actually. It enabled more graphics options than were possible from within the game, which allowed me to play using an unconventional resolution and screen ratio. 

I haven't even tried this new launcher yet, so my comment is strictly limited to the old one that has been broken for all but one or two versions since development began.

Hope that clears it up.

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

Silly question perhaps: has anyone tried reverting to the 1.12.3 install on Steam? It's right there in the list of betas...

The PDLauncher's depot was added to almost all KSP's packages. So it is being installed on every KSP Steam installs on your rig, and not only for 1.12.4 . I have reports of people using KSP 1.12.3 trying to get rid of it. I will eventually check if it will be installed too on older KSPs as 1.7.3.

It was downloaded and installed on MacOS by the way, besides it's not being configured to be used by Steam and I'm not being able to run it manually (and I tried, something about donet not being able to run .EXE Assemblies, only DLLs I think).

And I find this slightly hairy. This is not limited to KSP 1.12.4, this is potentially being applied to every KSP user (pending confirmation, I have hard evidences only for 1.12.3 until this moment).

 

[swjr-swis]

17 minutes ago, Lisias said:

The PDLauncher's depot was added to almost all KSP's packages.

Dork move, but ok.

My point still stands though. Did they recompile or change the game itself to need/require/search for the launcher? They may have done this for 1.12.4, but I very highly doubt they've gone back and done the same for all the older versions. If they couldn't even be bothered to do more than edit a few tutorial files, they sure as heck didn't go back the source tree to hard-bake the launcher into the older versions.

Re-download the older version of your preference, delete the launcher crap, and you're left with an install that's identical to how it was before.

 

[Lisias]

28 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

My point still stands though. Did they recompile or change the game itself to need/require/search for the launcher?

Nope. I had rolled back to 1.12.3 and then rolled forward again to 1.23.4, and Steam only had to download about 200K of data to do so (granted, 200K of compacted data, I'm guessing about 1 or 2 megabytes unpacked).

 

29 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

Re-download the older version of your preference, delete the launcher crap, and you're left with an install that's identical to how it was before.

But by doing that, you are waving the Steam Integration, and for some people this is a serious no-no .  Users with a single monitor setup make use of the Steam Integration to chat while playing (well, more or less, they need to pause he game - but you got it). You also lose the Steam Cloud features, etc.

It's not only about launching the game, it's about losing Steam features - that I don't use myself neither, but some users do - and, so, they have a compelling reason to try to get rid of the PDLauncher and have things back as they were before.

I can't blame them for trying. Well, I ended up doing it (for obvious reasons :P) but not too much  - I see their point.

[Lisias]

Interesting note that I didn't found a better place to register it: MacOS is imune to the `pwd` problem.

On MacOS, the `pwd` is set automatically to the "right" place, even if you call the executable inside the .app folder directly.

I don't know if this is a Unity for MacOS feature, something that KSP for MacOS does itself, or if MacOS does the stunt - but the result is the same, this problem just didn't manifested to me on KSP 1.12.4 for MacOS.

To tell you the true, I don't think this is really a good feature, it breaks long time UNIX behaviour - but, whatever. Apple is known for screwing things to force their weight on problems they create themselves.  

Edited November 23, 2022 by Lisias
Better phrasing

[Space Kadet]

Well any and all excitement  just died a death.

So as im sure everyone here feels the same about the 'launcher update' being a pile of **** ******* ********. I have never hidden the fact i think ksp went down hill after the t2 takeover, but this.....

ive jsut had a major issue with the launcher that started a week ago with a different game, but now understand why its going to be a major problem for ksp 2.

So tldr is that the launcer is commanded by those money grabbing overlords at take 2. its the same as rockstars, and the launchers have some serious compatibility issues with a LOT of other common programs.  

So install and play rdr2 the other day for the first time, and it told me to upgrade my gpu driver. 2 days later i went to play it again.... wouldent start. tldr, it wont run on my system at all because of conflicts up the wazoo started because the gpu driver updated. i started kerbal today, guess what happened, the eexact same crashes. tis dead too. i fixed it in the end and got kerbal working with the new drivers after 12 hours several reinstalls and some serious redbull comsumtion.  

 

• Outdated, missing, or incompatible Graphics Driver installed on your Windows devices, or ones that are too new.
• The games launcher lacks Admin rights, or some of the sub files lack them
• The antivirus installed on your device is interrupting the working of Launcher
• Launcher files are faulty or missing, caused by the launcher its self
• any utility programs open, armoury crate, nzxt, intelhub, lghub, nvidea app, opera etc. all where causing it issues.
  
  All of this was the problems with the take 2 launchers. and it turns out as far as rstar, its been a problem they knew about for years. The new ksp is going to have it because t2 kommandeth. so everyone in a while your gonna get an update and boom, nothing works.
  
  Ive spent several actual months fixing ksp when i broke it with mods, not fun but led to some great games.  but finding out that its going to happen everyonce in a while because a driver auto updated...
  
  Funny thin is cyberpunk works alot better witht he new gpu driver...
  
   

[GoldForest]

1 hour ago, Space Kadet said:

Well any and all excitement  just died a death.

So as im sure everyone here feels the same about the 'launcher update' being a pile of **** ******* ********. I have never hidden the fact i think ksp went down hill after the t2 takeover, but this.....

ive jsut had a major issue with the launcher that started a week ago with a different game, but now understand why its going to be a major problem for ksp 2.

So tldr is that the launcer is commanded by those money grabbing overlords at take 2. its the same as rockstars, and the launchers have some serious compatibility issues with a LOT of other common programs.  

So install and play rdr2 the other day for the first time, and it told me to upgrade my gpu driver. 2 days later i went to play it again.... wouldent start. tldr, it wont run on my system at all because of conflicts up the wazoo started because the gpu driver updated. i started kerbal today, guess what happened, the eexact same crashes. tis dead too. i fixed it in the end and got kerbal working with the new drivers after 12 hours several reinstalls and some serious redbull comsumtion.  

 

• Outdated, missing, or incompatible Graphics Driver installed on your Windows devices, or ones that are too new.
• The games launcher lacks Admin rights, or some of the sub files lack them
• The antivirus installed on your device is interrupting the working of Launcher
• Launcher files are faulty or missing, caused by the launcher its self
• any utility programs open, armoury crate, nzxt, intelhub, lghub, nvidea app, opera etc. all where causing it issues.
  
  All of this was the problems with the take 2 launchers. and it turns out as far as rstar, its been a problem they knew about for years. The new ksp is going to have it because t2 kommandeth. so everyone in a while your gonna get an update and boom, nothing works.
  
  Ive spent several actual months fixing ksp when i broke it with mods, not fun but led to some great games.  but finding out that its going to happen everyonce in a while because a driver auto updated...
  
  Funny thin is cyberpunk works alot better witht he new gpu driver...
  
   

You can skip the launcher entirely, 1 of 3 ways:
1) Copy all KSP files into a new folder
2) Delete PDLauncher folder
3) Double click KSP.exe
4) Enjoy

or

1) Launch KSP.exe directly from the Steam KSP folder

or

1) Use "Add Non-Steam game to library" in Steam
2) Search for and click on KSP.exe inside the Steam KSP Folder
3) Enjoy

Method 1 is the best, since Steam cloud has a way of screwing stuff up. Combining it with Method 3 also gives you an easy way to launch it. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by GoldForest

[Gargamel]

Overlapping threads have been split, moved and merged. 

[Ryaja]

People are overreacting to the launcher, yes it is annoying but quiting the game over it, or not buying KSP 2 over it? Especially since people use third party launchers like CKAN anyway. And with KSP 2  it might let us have multiple installations and install mods.

[eagleswing12]

Yeah, I can't launch from Steam anymore on Linux Not fun.

[Minmus Taster]

OK so I don't use Steam for ksp but why is this being so blown out of proportion? I get why people are mad, it's not a good change and sort of makes Steam pointless. But people are acting like the game was just ruined, it's just a dumb launcher and the game is mostly the same since the last update. And yes sadly yes, if it isn't changed ksp2 will probably be like this but who cares? Just don't buy it off Steam and have to deal with the second launcher.

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, eagleswing12 said:

Yeah, I can't launch from Steam anymore on Linux Not fun.

On Linux too? It was my understanding that only Windows users were affected, as the PD-Launchers appears to work only on Windows...

 

1 hour ago, Minmus Taster said:

OK so I don't use Steam for ksp but why is this being so blown out of proportion?

Because the PD-Launcher was engineered in a less than optimal way.

It doesn't even unloads itself from memory after firing up KSP, wasting VRAM and so causing stuttering on people using GPUs with 4 or even 6 GB of RAM that had installed some visual add'ons and had everything working fine before PD-Launcher was installed.

So people rushed to get rid of it anyway they could, and some of these ways ended up causing yet more problems because suddenly KSP was being launched from a directory different from the one it had been used for 10 years - and this caused some add'ons and the KSP itself to misbehave.

Adding insult to injury, the Launcher didn't really added any value to the end user. Apparently it will have some value later, after KSP2 being launched, as a hub to KSP2's information and updates, but right now it just doesn't add's any value to KSP1 users - and it's uncertain it will ever do it. KSP1 is not going to be further updated, it is?

 

16 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Method 1 is the best, since Steam cloud has a way of screwing stuff up. Combining it with Method 3 also gives you an easy way to launch it. 

I agree. But some people like the Steam Integration, and for these people the KSSL may be the best option!

Just remove the PD-Launcher's directory contents manually, unzip KSSL over it, and you are done!

[GoldForest]

7 hours ago, Lisias said:

I agree. But some people like the Steam Integration, and for these people the KSSL may be the best option!

Hence why I said combining Methods 1 and 3 are best. You still get Steam Overlay by adding a non-steam game to steam. 

[CrazyJebGuy]

I feel blessed that I didn't even know there was a launcher until people ranted on the forum.

Hasn't it tanked the recent steam reviews by about 40% though? Truly it must be a terrible launcher.

[Deddly]

1 hour ago, CrazyJebGuy said:

Hasn't it tanked the recent steam reviews by about 40% though? Truly it must be a terrible launcher.

These days, people use negative review scores as an aggressive way of requesting features or asking for changes to aspects of a game or other product they are not happy about. I don't support that kind of hostile demand, but it's unfortunately getting quite common.

[GoldForest]

2 hours ago, CrazyJebGuy said:

I feel blessed that I didn't even know there was a launcher until people ranted on the forum.

Hasn't it tanked the recent steam reviews by about 40% though? Truly it must be a terrible launcher.

Nope.  The game still sits at mostly positive, even in the recent category. 

And from what I can tell, it's only a low percentage of people that have software bound problems with the launcher. From what I've seen, it's just people complaining about having to click a few more buttons, which I do agree is stupid, but at the same time, we can bypass the launcher through using the exe file or by downloading a mod/addon, so I don't get what's the big problem since there's already two solutions.