Week One Adventures

[rollhax]

Do any of these fixes include a fix for linux users who can't launch planes because there's a semi-invisible ground layer floating above KSC? (note, this only happens with `PROTON_USE_WINED3D=1`, but the game is unplayable due to low FPS without it)

Edited March 4, 2023 by rollhax

[Nate Simpson]

2 hours ago, RockyTV said:

What's holding you back from releasing these patches from day one? Game has been released in EA for a week and no updates or hotfixes or anything. Plus, saying these fixes will come in the next weeks makes the situation worse. As others have stated, KSP2 with a triple-A team behind them can't do what HarvesteR did back when KSP1 released its first alpha/beta versions.

I wish the patches would become more frequent. Taking 3-4 weeks after releasing in EA to address some issues that should've been fixed and caught during pre-launch QA tests is simply unacceptable for a company as big as Take2.

Since I have asked similar questions about other games in the past, I have a lot of empathy for this perspective. Now I must do my penance by explaining what it looks like from the other side!

I'm sure one of our producers could give you a more precise answer, but here's the general idea: every time we release an update, we essentially take a snapshot build of the game and then test it like crazy. That uses up a huge amount of QA bandwidth, and for a game like KSP2 it really is a non-trivial amount of work to test it in a way that approximates the range of activities that the entire community might get up to in the game. As they test that snapshot build, they sometimes discover bugs. Many of them (hopefully most of them) will be known bugs that are already tracked and that we're already working on. But some of these bugs might actually be new bugs that have emerged since the last update. Those point to unintended outcomes related to recent checkins -- i.e. by fixing one problem, we have created a new problem. We are trying very hard to hold ourselves to the standard of "the game should get better with every update," and that means that we take this sort of bug very seriously. This means that when such a bug arises, production and engineering go over these issues with a fine-tooth comb and figure out what broke, and then additional fixes are applied to the build until it's in a good state.

Now, as you may have noticed, getting a candidate build to a level of quality that it's safe to release involves a lot of coordinated activity among a lot of people who also need to be advancing other areas of the game (for example bringing about perf improvements or working on roadmap features). Our update cadence is therefore carefully balanced against our need to keep pushing the entire game forward toward 1.0.  Of course I would love to drop an update every day like the update Easter Bunny, but the reality is that each update comes with a cost, and we want to have the bandwidth to work on cool stuff like Colonies and Interstellar too. With that in mind, and because we want each update to contain lots of meaningful improvements, we can't release rapid-fire updates. HarvesteR was amazing and deserves his godlike status in this community, and I remember hanging on to his every post back when he was updating KSP. But I suspect that he was also constrained by similar production realities. 

All that said, I think it's safe to say that our key focus today is to correct issues that affect the quality of gameplay, which means performance bugs, bugs that stop some players from being able to play the game at all, bugs that result in loss of vehicle, bugs that result in mission failure, bugs that result in the game crashing, and bugs that ruin campaign saves. When such fixes are complete, we do not intend to sit on them for a long time. One of life's great frustrations is to read a complaint about a bug online and know that it's been fixed internally. As long as the wait between updates may feel on the outside, let me assure you that it feels even longer on the inside! 

Now @nestoris going to yell at me for speaking about this topic in a sloppy fashion, and I encourage him to join me in this thread if he'd like to add more to my explanation. I hope this at least gives you some sense of the environment within which our task assignments take place.   

[Profugo Barbatus]

No worries, I appreciate just seeing the actual list of rolling fixes. God knows I know exactly what your talking about when it comes to the important bugs being the hardest to fix, and taking time to actually bundle a release together. After all these years, I consider a 4-week turnaround 'pretty fast' for most things, so you're at least on track to meet my expectations already.

Also glad to hear it hasn't become an all hands panic onto patching and that there's still manpower working on the rest of the tree. It wasn't exactly a big concern, since just throwing people at the problem usually just makes more problems when someone unfamiliar steps into a new code space trying to 'fix' it.

Here's hoping the worst of the crunch clears out in the next few weeks, and that you can transition from fire fighting to watching the community do challenge flights and youtube videos in relative stability and confidence their missions won't just up and explode, lithobraking excluded.

[cybraxpunker]

Thank you developers for your amazing work <3 !
Thank you for improving and continue one of my favorite games !

[Sequence]

18 minutes ago, Nate Simpson said:

We are trying very hard to hold ourselves to the standard of "the game should get better with every update," and that means that we take this sort of bug very seriously. This means that when such a bug arises, production and engineering go over these issues with a fine-tooth comb and figure out what broke, and then additional fixes are applied to the build until it's in a good state.

This is a difficult balancing act. I've worked in software development for 2 decades, my experience tells me that it's better to improve quality in a meaningful way than it is to make quick updates and risk introducing severe bugs. I can only speak for myself, but I support the careful and considered approach. Please continue to report progress on confirmed bug fixes, it goes anlong way to inspiring patience. 

[Pyritin]

I have been (and still am) pretty critical of KSP2 and the job Intercept Games has had done thus far. That being said I'm more than willing to give credit where it's due. I wanted to thank you @Nate Simpson for taking the time to personally respond and address some of the criticism directly. Many individuals in your position would have simply routed any messages through the PR team or Community Managers (ala @Dakota) and made them deal with the brunt of your decree's (for better or worse). While I don't completely agree with a lot of the decisions made regarding KSP2, it's release, and how things were done I do appreciate you being willing to stand behind your decisions for better or worse. Many in your position would be more than happy to "pass the buck" or let the filth roll downstream. I appreciate your more hands on approach and hope it continues in the future. While I'm not thrilled with the job you and you're team have done up to this point, I do hope things get better not only for the community (and selfishly myself) but for you and your team. I'm sure morale has hit a pretty significant lull do to this release and I hope you all get the chance to complete this product in the way you've envisioned and can be proud of.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Pyritin

[Pickelhaube808]

I am so far impressed to see that I got an emailed response back from a real person after submitting bugs and feedback in and seeing many of those end up on this upcoming changelog. I was most likely not the sole discoverer for any single bug in particular, but it is still a nice feeling. It is also impressive to see an email from a real person when I surmise that everyone over there is running around with their hair on fire and taking flak from all sides...

 

[MiniMatt]

1 hour ago, Nate Simpson said:

I'm sure one of our producers could give you a more precise answer, but here's the general idea: every time we release an update, we essentially take a snapshot build of the game and then test it like crazy. That uses up a huge amount of QA bandwidth, and for a game like KSP2 it really is a non-trivial amount of work to test it in a way that approximates the range of activities that the entire community might get up to in the game. As they test that snapshot build, they sometimes discover bugs.

Feels a bit cruel to keep dunking but I gotta ask - did the "...test like crazy... huge amount of QA bandwidth..." not pick up on any of this before release? Did they not notice the KSC tagging along on orbital excursions, or rockets falling to a pile of pieces and falling through the VAB floor, or the frame rate cratering everytime the camera pointed at terrain? Because it feels disappointing that every review, every stream, every preview, couldn't help but fallover these bugs but the "huge amount of QA bandwidth" missed them?

[Gizm0s]

6 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

This is actually a great question! We have a very strong sense of which bugs affect the gameplay experience the most right now, and those issues have been assigned accordingly. Unfortunately, there is often a correlation between the profundity of a bug and the amount of time it takes to correct. This sometimes has the effect of "low importance" bugs seeming to get fixed on a faster timeline than "game breaking" bugs, and this is interpreted by some observers to mean that those bugs were more important to us. This is not the case. There are many people working on many bugs in parallel, and some of the systems involved are highly complex.

Damn this guy knows how to spin words.

Don’t worry, having worked with devs and having a decent understanding of the process, I totally agree with Nate; but damn I could have never responded to such a snide comment with such grace!

[Palshife]

41 minutes ago, MiniMatt said:

Feels a bit cruel to keep dunking but I gotta ask - did the "...test like crazy... huge amount of QA bandwidth..." not pick up on any of this before release? Did they not notice the KSC tagging along on orbital excursions, or rockets falling to a pile of pieces and falling through the VAB floor, or the frame rate cratering everytime the camera pointed at terrain? Because it feels disappointing that every review, every stream, every preview, couldn't help but fallover these bugs but the "huge amount of QA bandwidth" missed them?

It's good of you to admit that you think it's cruel to dunk on them like this.

It's just the nature of software engineering. You do QA on software. You catch a lot of stuff before it goes out the door. You miss a lot, too. You document the stuff you can't fix in time and you get to it when you can. You take the bug reports and prioritize. QA isn't magic. It's just work. They no doubt squashed a whole lot of bugs before early access that we'll never even hear about. The process isn't perfect, but they're clearly doing a lot right.

[Klapaucius]

6 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

This is actually a great question! We have a very strong sense of which bugs affect the gameplay experience the most right now, and those issues have been assigned accordingly. Unfortunately, there is often a correlation between the profundity of a bug and the amount of time it takes to correct. This sometimes has the effect of "low importance" bugs seeming to get fixed on a faster timeline than "game breaking" bugs, and this is interpreted by some observers to mean that those bugs were more important to us. This is not the case. There are many people working on many bugs in parallel, and some of the systems involved are highly complex.

This answer demonstrates why you are a great leader for the team. You stay positive even when answering--if I may so--possibly snarky questions with grace and aplomp.  I've been so impressed by your enthusiasm and passion.

 

Despite the bugs, I am having a blast in the new KSP.  I got to turn a fuel tank into a giant bowling ball; how cool is that???

As @ShadowZone said on a recent video:  This is the worst KSP2 will ever be. It is only going to get better and better.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Klapaucius

[Guest]

This is super promising, thank you! I hope QA goes smoothly and you’ll get it out soon!

[Aiels]

1 hour ago, MiniMatt said:

Feels a bit cruel to keep dunking but I gotta ask - did the "...test like crazy... huge amount of QA bandwidth..." not pick up on any of this before release? Did they not notice the KSC tagging along on orbital excursions, or rockets falling to a pile of pieces and falling through the VAB floor, or the frame rate cratering everytime the camera pointed at terrain? Because it feels disappointing that every review, every stream, every preview, couldn't help but fallover these bugs but the "huge amount of QA bandwidth" missed them?

The difference in scale between internal QA and any kind of public release can't be overstated. I've played for maybe ~30 hr now, and have yet to encounter most of the worst bugs mentioned in the update. My save files are fine, the game hasn't crashed on me, my crafts haven't randomly exploded, and I haven't had the KSC follow me around either. Which isn't to say I have had a problem-free experience, but it also shouldn't be too surprising that when the game is released to tens or even hundreds of thousands of players, they're gonna notice things that the couple dozen devs and testers may have missed, or underestimated.

[Vallius]

Quote

We are trying very hard to hold ourselves to the standard of "the game should get better with every update," and that means that we take this sort of bug very seriously. This means that when such a bug arises, production and engineering go over these issues with a fine-tooth comb and figure out what broke, and then additional fixes are applied to the build until it's in a good state.

So you're saying is that the goal is that "Things will only get better?"   The debugging and optimization process of KSP2 (a game about debugging and optimizing spacecraft) feels so meta (albeit with much higher stakes). Godspeed Private Division. Thank you for taking the time to respond to an anxious community.

[RaccoonRonin]

5 hours ago, Raptus said:

The first 4 planes I built had zero issues, including my my first SSTO which made it to orbit on first flight. 
 

This game requires learning and patience to understand how it works. It always has. 

Yeah this is BS. The game as it is requires you to use copious amounts of struts without autostrut or some similar system in place. Almost every part when placed onto another part flops around like a fish, and even when strutted up, it still flops. The worst is boosters attached radially, they flop when you load the craft in, and pretty much fling into your rocket when they're activated. So I tried making a similar rocket without boosters, and wouldn't you know, as soon as I did my gravity turn the thing just disassembles itself.

I assure you, this is not a case of needing to have patience, and learn. I know how this works, I'm more or less a veteran of the first game. I wonder if people being dismissive of this issue like this are the reason it's not being addressed in this blog post, because that has been mine and many other people's single biggest complaint about why this game is unplayable in its current state.

[Nate Simpson]

13 minutes ago, Vallius said:

So you're saying is that the goal is that "Things will only get better?"  

We chose that song exactly because it perfectly sums up both the experience of playing and making this game. I'm so happy that everybody understood our meaning!  

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, RaccoonRonin said:

Yeah this is BS. The game as it is requires you to use copious amounts of struts without autostrut or some similar system in place.

I haven’t had to use much struts at all! Went to the Mun and Duna so far and built many planes.

[RealKerbal3x]

40 minutes ago, Nate Simpson said:

We chose that song exactly because it perfectly sums up both the experience of playing and making this game. I'm so happy that everybody understood our meaning!  

And do you feel scared? I do
But I won't stop and falter
And if we threw it all away
Things can only get better

Couldn't embody the whole idea of early access any better

Thanks Nate and team for being so transparent here, looking forward to the patch!

Edited March 4, 2023 by RealKerbal3x

[Talia]

Cool, okay, but...what about  ships spontaneously shaking themselves to oblivion???

It just seems like the ground-up rewrite should have NOT re-implemented the exact same Krakens.

Build and launch this... in KSP 1...  KSP 2...

1. Rez one long I-Beam standing on end.
2. Attach to it along two sides about a dozen short I-Beams.

Fun-killing, ship-eating Kraken.

Should have been top priority. But I guess I'm wrong.

[Faile]

9 hours ago, Domonian said:

Any fix for decouplers getting stuck on stuff? I can't get a rover to the Mun because I'm not very good at building rockets and my "solutions" all end up having a decoupler get stuck on an engine bell or something and causing issues. 

You know how in KSP 1 you tidy your staging plan by putting the decoupler in the same stage as the next engine? don't do that in KSP2, it works if you don't. I think the stage control somehow "skips" the decoupler and gives "control" to the next stage and the part gets left stuck as debris to your ship but never gains the debris status cause it's not disconnected.

[RaccoonRonin]

25 minutes ago, Periple said:

I haven’t had to use much struts at all! Went to the Mun and Duna so far and built many planes.

I don't know, I don't understand how the struts issue could be so varied. My buddy and I are both experiencing craft stability issues and I've seen it all over the internet but there are tons of people like you who seem to be having almost no issues of the like at all. I don't understand how the bugs aren't at least a little bit more uniform, especially when they're so integral to gameplay and not performance.

[Richie2k33]

@Nate Simpson- Are you able to be any more specific than 'a couple of weeks'  on the first update? 

 

For those of us who have paid  lots of money for a game that's sadly unplayable, this first update is very important.  ☹️

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

6 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

Since I have asked similar questions about other games in the past, I have a lot of empathy for this perspective. Now I must do my penance by explaining what it looks like from the other side!

[...]

Nate, thank you for putting yourself both in our shoes as well as telling us how it looks like from the team's side, it takes balls.

Now, before this thread which gave us the long awaited context of specifics about the update 1st update, there has been quite a bit of secrecy around the update and each time "in the coming weeks" was repeated without any extra information, both I and many others didn't appreciate it, up to the point where I must say if there would have been some kind of refund program I would definitely have considered it.

I'm one of the ones that don't mind waiting if I know for what and for how long, and "in the coming weeks" along with 4 generic bullet points just doesn't cut it for me, whereas "a couple weeks" gives me a more clear idea when to expect this, and along with the specifics of what has been done already I think it's the cherry on top.

 

So again, thank you for finally sharing the specifics around the update, hope this becomes a habit, and best of luck for you and the entire team to, together with feedback, evolve KSP2 into the game it deserves to be.

[Sequence]

56 minutes ago, RaccoonRonin said:

I don't know, I don't understand how the struts issue could be so varied. My buddy and I are both experiencing craft stability issues and I've seen it all over the internet but there are tons of people like you who seem to be having almost no issues of the like at all. I don't understand how the bugs aren't at least a little bit more uniform, especially when they're so integral to gameplay and not performance.

I'm one of the people that hasn't experienced some of the very aggravating sounding issues with rockets disassembling themselves or with struts not working. I've built launchers with solid boosters and held them steady with struts. I haven't had KSC follow me anywhere either. 

I find it difficult to believe that it could have anything to do with how I build and design my ships. It must be hardware related somehow. Maybe different chipsets or driver versions are causing issues with the game engine? 

[The Aziz]

I forgot to post how I appreciate the update on the update. Also would like to remind everyone that you can't put an external deadline if you don't how how long it's going to take to work on things.

Regardless, I hope some trajectory calculation issues are also resolved as I'm unable to return home because of that.