My Response To KSP2 Critics

[Tazooka]

26 minutes ago, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

We waited more than 3 years in high anticipation to enjoy ourselves and we do this??

Exactly, we waited 3 years... for this. A buggy, unoptimized game that isn't anywhere at the state promised or expected.
It is "unacceptable".

I don't quite understand why you're being so defensive and offended by peoples opinions of the game, when it's literally just opinions. People are entitled to state their opinions and thoughts, however constructive the feedback is and at the end of the day, KSP 2 is funded by a multi-billion dollar company.... who should have higher expectations.

I agree, people should be positive, but sometimes its too much and people get disappointed and/or frustrated after spending their hard earned money on something they aren't happy with.

34 minutes ago, Maria Sirona said:

Isn't people being allowed to report these things the whole point of Early Access?

This exactly. Otherwise, what's the point and where can we go?

I'm not saying you're wrong @DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE, as its not a right/wrong scenario, but let people express their concerns, however petty or small you may think they'll be, as again, at the end of the day its a perspective thing.

On 4/4/2023 at 4:20 PM, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

Maybe it is best to leave this as an agree-to-disagree.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Tazooka
typo

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

5 minutes ago, Tazooka said:

Exactly, we waited 3 years... for this. A buggy, unoptimized game that isn't anywhere at the state promised or expected.
It is "unacceptable".

I don't quite understand why you're being so defensive and offended by peoples opinions of the game, when it's literally just opinions. People are entitled to state their opinions and thoughts, however constructive the feedback is and at the end of the day, KSP 2 is funded by a multi-billion dollar company.... who should have higher expectations.

Well, destructive, demeaning, and degrading criticism doesn't help the "3 years waiting" fact and just because we are butt-hurt about the bugs does not give an excuse to loosen up our behavior in the forum and get down-right dirty. That's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with us (that is, the forum). All we should see is the bug, a description of the bug, and maybe an occasional "i really hope this gets fixed" or "Man its a shame i can't dock my lander, i hope the devs improve on this". That is hardly what's been going on. Of course, you can state YOU are dissapointed but you cannot say the game is an overall dissapointment cause then your speaking for everyone (and let's not forget the fact the game isnt even past V0.1.

maybe i should just spend the rest of my time here in the KSP hype train thread before this community entices me to leave again

Edited April 6, 2023 by DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE

[Kerbart]

7 minutes ago, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

Well, destructive, demeaning, and degrading criticism doesn't help the "3 years waiting" fact and just because we are butt-hurt about the bugs does not give an excuse to loosen up our behavior in the forum and get down-right dirty. That's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with us (that is, the forum)

To be fair, asking unreasonable troglodytes to be reasonable (and for clarity, none of the pople responding in this thread falls under that category) will have little effect either. You know what works? Blocking them. There's only a handful of truly toxic posters, and I can assure you, once you've added those to your ignore list (just clicking "ignore" is not enough, you have to check the boxes and then click "save preferences") the forum becomes actually enjoyable.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Kerbart

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

6 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

To be fair, asking unreasonable troglodytes to be reasonable (and for clarity, none of the pople responding in this thread falls under that category) will have little effect either.

To be honest, not naming names, one or two of them fall close to that category, or at least the hyperbole/passively sadistic part. but i do agree with what you are saying though. Maybe im also speaking for everyone while in reality, its only a percentage

Edited April 6, 2023 by DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE

[Tazooka]

2 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

troglodytes

Such a fancy word for an unfancy meaning. I love it

4 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

You know what works? Blocking them.

Agreed

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

7 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

troglodytes

The amount of times this man has made me search up "Google Define" is unprecedented

Spoiler

 

[caipi]

I'm not gonna get into the whole "... but it's early access!!!!!oneeleven (and i think early access stands for [XYZ]...)"-thingy here. This isn't the first EA I've purchased, played, and waited out. And it's not even the worst EA I've experienced. But it is the worst EA of a game series.

But to share my opinion here in a hopefully neutral way: First, I don't care about FPS and performance, not in this stage of the game. I understand that it is a big issue for some people though. However, aside from the graphics which have really been improved, I actually haven't seen any improvement to the game itself. Only disimprovements. So many functionalities that were present in KSP1 are suddenly missing. So many things changed to a state which I consider worse. It feels like the current devs have had a different playstyle than most of the other players. Maybe they just liked crashing rockets and playing with cheats on - I don't know. For me what's so disappointing is not that announced features aren't there yet. I can wait. It's that the gameplay feels worse than in KSP 0.23 (when I started with KSP1). That combined with the long development time and the high price makes me highly suspicious. It looks and feels like a disimproved cash grab with minimal effort. Like the trailers received more love than the actual development of the game. I've already commented on other occasions (this forum, steam forum, steam review for the game) about what in particular I didn't like or felt that was missing, so I'm not gonna repeat it here. This is the first game ever that I returned (via Steam). I'm very disappointed in which (disimproving) direction the current devs took the game and I'm not very hopeful.

If you remain hopeful because "it's EA" (and that means it excuses anything and everything...), that's your right and for your sake and the game's sake, I hope that they'll turn it around. But the current price for this piece of work is in my opinion an audacity. And EA does not excuse anything and everything. If they had improved anything else but the graphic alone, or if they at least would not have removed core functionalities from the game, I might still be optimistic. But the way it is going, it's just so disappointing and not what I was looking for. Luckily, there is still KSP1. With the right mods, you get better visuals and performance with more functionality. So I don't see a reason to purchase KSP2 (again). Let's hope KSP2 makes it to a release - and I don't just mean a "okay, we're not gonna invest any more time or effort into the game, so the current state is now considered release"-release. I mean an actual 1.0 release-worthy release with all goals achieved that were planned when the game was announced.

Edited April 6, 2023 by caipi

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

39 minutes ago, caipi said:

I'm not gonna get into the whole "... but it's early access!!!!!oneeleven (and i think early access stands for [XYZ]...)"-thingy here. This isn't the first EA I've purchased, played, and waited out. And it's not even the worst EA I've experienced. But it is the worst EA of a game series.

But to share my opinion here in a hopefully neutral way: First, I don't care about FPS and performance, not in this stage of the game. I understand that it is a big issue for some people though. However, aside from the graphics which have really been improved, I actually haven't seen any improvement to the game itself. Only disimprovements. So many functionalities that were present in KSP1 are suddenly missing. So many things changed to a state which I consider worse. It feels like the current devs have had a different playstyle than most of the other players. Maybe they just liked crashing rockets and playing with cheats on - I don't know. For me what's so disappointing is not that announced features aren't there yet. I can wait. It's that the gameplay feels worse than in KSP 0.23 (when I started with KSP1). That combined with the long development time and the high price makes me highly suspicious. It looks and feels like a disimproved cash grab with minimal effort. Like the trailers received more love than the actual development of the game. I've already commented on other occasions (this forum, steam forum, steam review for the game) about what in particular I didn't like or felt that was missing, so I'm not gonna repeat it here. This is the first game ever that I returned (via Steam). I'm very disappointed in which (disimproving) direction the current devs took the game and I'm not very hopeful.

If you remain hopeful because "it's EA" (and that means it excuses anything and everything...), that's your right and for your sake and the game's sake, I hope that they'll turn it around. But the current price for this piece of work is in my opinion an audacity. And EA does not excuse anything and everything. If they had improved anything else but the graphic alone, or if they at least would not have removed core functionalities from the game, I might still be optimistic. But the way it is going, it's just so disappointing and not what I was looking for. Luckily, there is still KSP1. With the right mods, you get better visuals and performance with more functionality. So I don't see a reason to purchase KSP2 (again). Let's hope KSP2 makes it to a release - and I don't just mean a "okay, we're not gonna invest any more time or effort into the game, so the current state is now considered release"-release. I mean an actual 1.0 release-worthy release with all goals achieved that were planned when the game was announced.

I don't think Private Division would be happy selling $10 games. I agree that the business department was lazy but i know that Nate and the great devs here would not short-end us on purpose. Many times the designers are rushed by irrelevant, financially hungry business executives so i think we should be kind to the devs, give them bug feedback, and criticize the real culprit here, executive teams.

[caipi]

49 minutes ago, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

give them bug feedback, and criticize the real culprit here, executive teams.

What am I? A QA tester? Don't they have a QA department for that? Isn't bug feedback primarily intended for rare or hard to track bugs instead of common and rather obvious bugs?

I will consider it when they start paying me to find bugs. But if they demand 50€ from me to do their work for them (to find and analyze bugs), that's a hard pass for me! I think they or possibly you got something backwards here. Since when is the customer supposed to improve the product to a usable state? I'm not talking about suggestions or feedback, but about basic gameplay bugs and basic functionality. For a game that costs 10 or 15€ I might do it, like we did for KSP1. But for this price? NO! I'm not paying money to be their unpaid employee or lackey. That's just silly. If they want to sell something to me, it needs to be for a fair price/performance ratio and it needs to be in a working condition.

 

Btw, I remember times when players were compensated in one form or another for such QA work. Even if it was just "worthless" ingame cosmetics. But at least there was some form of appreciation.  This however just feels like plain exploitation. "Pay us and then help us." Maybe even extortion ("we need your help to finish the game..." xD )

Edited April 6, 2023 by caipi

[TomKerbal]

2 hours ago, caipi said:

I'm not gonna get into the whole "... but it's early access!!!!!oneeleven (and i think early access stands for [XYZ]...)"-thingy here. This isn't the first EA I've purchased, played, and waited out. And it's not even the worst EA I've experienced. But it is the worst EA of a game series.

But to share my opinion here in a hopefully neutral way: First, I don't care about FPS and performance, not in this stage of the game. I understand that it is a big issue for some people though. However, aside from the graphics which have really been improved, I actually haven't seen any improvement to the game itself. Only disimprovements. So many functionalities that were present in KSP1 are suddenly missing. So many things changed to a state which I consider worse. It feels like the current devs have had a different playstyle than most of the other players. Maybe they just liked crashing rockets and playing with cheats on - I don't know. For me what's so disappointing is not that announced features aren't there yet. I can wait. It's that the gameplay feels worse than in KSP 0.23 (when I started with KSP1). That combined with the long development time and the high price makes me highly suspicious. It looks and feels like a disimproved cash grab with minimal effort. Like the trailers received more love than the actual development of the game. I've already commented on other occasions (this forum, steam forum, steam review for the game) about what in particular I didn't like or felt that was missing, so I'm not gonna repeat it here. This is the first game ever that I returned (via Steam). I'm very disappointed in which (disimproving) direction the current devs took the game and I'm not very hopeful.

If you remain hopeful because "it's EA" (and that means it excuses anything and everything...), that's your right and for your sake and the game's sake, I hope that they'll turn it around. But the current price for this piece of work is in my opinion an audacity. And EA does not excuse anything and everything. If they had improved anything else but the graphic alone, or if they at least would not have removed core functionalities from the game, I might still be optimistic. But the way it is going, it's just so disappointing and not what I was looking for. Luckily, there is still KSP1. With the right mods, you get better visuals and performance with more functionality. So I don't see a reason to purchase KSP2 (again). Let's hope KSP2 makes it to a release - and I don't just mean a "okay, we're not gonna invest any more time or effort into the game, so the current state is now considered release"-release. I mean an actual 1.0 release-worthy release with all goals achieved that were planned when the game was announced.

I can understand you and share some of your arguments. They cleary reinvented the wheel... and make it square a little bit. But grafics and sound / music are major parts of a (simulation) game and there are some good improvements here (ahh... I like the launchpad :-). Real new content / adding the missing content compared to KSP1 has to be done for the version 1.0 . For me as a software developer I like QA testing, installing a patch, testing it for one or two days, then leaving the game and return curious to the next patch (because there are other nice games out there). So since there is the possibility to get the money back, I think that way to improve a game is o.k. The developers clearly have problems so let's help them and hope for the best. And since there are so many really great mods for KSP1 for orientation how to do I am a little bit astonished that they did not manage a better first throw and take so long. The communication with the community is examplary, I think. The CEO directly communicating with us. O.k. at least for me I think that this is not self-evident.

[Alexoff]

8 hours ago, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

Any trick they pull (that Nintendo often pulls) will backfire quite badly.

Well, they have already pulled off a good trick - the game, polished for several years, has turned into a heavily curtailed early access. It turned out that our community is very patient and ready to wait, like Hachi, for the appearance of the very game that was going to be released in 2020.

1 hour ago, TomKerbal said:

The developers clearly have problems so let's help them and hope for the best.

Do developers have problems? Nate is happy with everything, the development is going according to plan, the most difficult thing for him was creating tutorials. Nobody asks us for any help, the patch is generally wonderful. I get the impression that the developers live somewhere in another universe.

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

16 hours ago, TomKerbal said:

I can understand you and share some of your arguments. They cleary reinvented the wheel... and make it square a little bit. But grafics and sound / music are major parts of a (simulation) game and there are some good improvements here (ahh... I like the launchpad :-). Real new content / adding the missing content compared to KSP1 has to be done for the version 1.0 . For me as a software developer I like QA testing, installing a patch, testing it for one or two days, then leaving the game and return curious to the next patch (because there are other nice games out there). So since there is the possibility to get the money back, I think that way to improve a game is o.k. The developers clearly have problems so let's help them and hope for the best. And since there are so many really great mods for KSP1 for orientation how to do I am a little bit astonished that they did not manage a better first throw and take so long. The communication with the community is examplary, I think. The CEO directly communicating with us. O.k. at least for me I think that this is not self-evident.

Man the sound track is to die for 

[TickleMyMary]

On 4/4/2023 at 2:53 PM, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

Hello everyone. After being away for 3 years, i am completely shocked at how mixed the reviews are for KSP2. Too often do i hear about performance and bug issues, too often do i hear "Parallax 2.0 is better than KSP2", and too often do i hear people whining, complaining, and glooming over an amazing game in early access.

Wake up people, Its EARLY ACCESS!

I think some people have forgotten what Early Access is.

"Early access, also known as alpha access, alpha founding, paid alpha, or game preview, is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can purchase and play a game in the various pre-release development cycles, such as pre-alpha, alpha, and/or beta, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue further development on the game. Those that pay to participate typically help to debug the game, provide feedback and suggestions, may have access to special materials in the game. The early-access approach is a common way to obtain funding for indie games, and may also be used along with other funding mechanisms, including crowdfunding. Many crowdfunding projects promise to offer access to alpha and/or beta versions of the game as development progresses; however, unlike some of these projects which solicit funds but do not yet have a playable game, all early access games offer an immediately playable version of the unfinished game to players." - Wikipedia

We all know KSP2 got us all hyped at some point or another. I remember my first stroke with KSP2 was the most blind ever. On August 20th, in the middle of the night, only a few hours after the KSP2 first cinematic trailer released, i curiously typed up KSP2, looking to get a good laugh at some clickbait. When i saw the trailer, all i can say is that it touched me so hard, it teared me up. I watched it about 50 more times that night. Later on, the community was the biggest hype train i've ever boarded upon. And it stayed like this for more than 3 years. Sure we had our ups and downs. You do not want to know how many people who were willing to boycott the KSP2 game just for the "procedural wing" feature. Well guess what? That was one of the first things to be added. Over time, as new episodes were released from the Kerbal Space Program channel, and as Nate Simpson and other dev. members shared more information, boy we were hyped as ever. That's all i remember though... because I left the forum. Little did i know that people would tear the game apart for Performance requirements and bugs, both things that come with most beta to early access games. What do you think of when you hear the word "Version 1.0"? i can tell you, Early Access is not one of them. Haven't we not realized this is a work in process? Have we not realized this is an investment to the future of the KSP Franchise. The some of the same people who i saw worshipping KSP1 are now brutalizing the successor. So what if only 3% of steam users meet recommended requirements? Do we not realize we have in our hands what is possibly the most expansive game ever? This is literally Minecraft 2.0 that we have here.  Of course it's going to be hefty on the CPU/GPU! And better part is, the developers are already hard at work at optimizing this. I guess people are frightened that the KSP2 devs are going to turn into the mindset of Nintendo, who sells half completed games that fully release... and are still very bad. Private Division and the devs are different. These are run by individuals who are known and trusted by the community. Many people are from the community itself and got fortunate with real promotions with joining the KSP2 development team. Heck, i even think i once got a promotional offer (although i may be wrong on this). The bugs are minor; we shouldn't be busting our heads over it. People say that Parallax 2.0 is better than KSP2. Well, if KSP2 is already competitive in early access, imagine what it will be like in a completed state! If KSP1 was as good as KSP2 is right now, there would be little need for Parallax as it would look the same. Plus, its convenient not to downlad external mods. With 281 bugs smashed in the last patch, there will be much more bug smashing and squishing to come. For KSP2 to be a success, it needs to reinforce the one thing that kept KSP1 together. That is, community feedback. This is exactly why early access is surprisingly one of the best things to happen to KSP2. Unless, of course, you're willing to wait until 2025 for perhaps almost a full game. The community feedback will help prioritize fixing the game internally before we go on massive ambitions, such as colonies, interstellar travel, and automatic trade routes (which totally caught me off guard). I think bringing the game down with criticism is unnecessary. We are always going to move on. What we made of a big stink like with "procedural wings" will be the next fresh breeze. This game is going to get better! If KSP1 did it good, KSP2 can do it better! Hopefully we can all look back and have a good chuckle on this matter but whatever happens in the end, all i know is:

"When i purchase the game, Nate Simpsons definitely got my 50 dollars."

 

Let me know what you guys think.

i might edit this more so it carries more weight.

 

 

Here.

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

I used that to emphasize my point, i wasn't screaming at anyone. In english, it's called a "hook". You DO realize that was the first post in the thread. right??

As part of the positive forum movement, I thought it would be nice to raise people's spirits and maybe shed some positive light in the midst of the rocky launch, but in pure honesty, this forum is so divided by equally strong opinions on KSP2 that it feels just like politics (not bringing that up, just using it as a comparison). This is my last post on this thread, because you know what's more disappointing than KSP2? the people who are making such a big stink about it. Can we not have a positive talk on KSP2? [snip]

@Gargamel Its best in my opinion to maybe lock or delete this thread. its lost its meaning.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Socraticat]

Hakuna Matata!

Wow, what a lively discussion. Look, if your upset about the game, that's fine, but it's a bit of a stretch for any of us to define what "Early Access" should mean.

But then again, I do have rose colored glasses on... why? Because I'm not going to get myself spun up about a game... a game that I voluntarily put time in. I'm not going to talk negatively, but rather constructively and encouragingly. Not because I don't know about everything that's broken, but rather because I don't see the point in putting shame on someone's best effort when they are so obviously trying to fix things properly. 

They are listening on Steam, Discord, and these forums...

There has already been one patch with significant improvements 

They are offering weekly updates

And there is literally no reason to suggest that their intent is to take money and run. That's so offensive.

It's like taking a rough draft to a teacher, and your teacher says- "you didn't put any effort in this" vs, "this needs work, but I like your premises".

Constructive criticism is not the same as frustrated venting. Anyone reading this, I hope you remember that you can always delete or not submit a post. I implore you to read it before posting and ask yourself if your really just being blunt, or maybe it's snyde and rude. It happens quickly, often without intent, but to dramatic effect to the recipient and the attitude of the forum.

I'm always so disheartened when someone I follow on here is... "just being blunt and honest". Like, yeah, I get that... but is the language you use really helpful? Is this ranting that might not age well after another patch?

That's a lot of windbaggery, sorry-

 

I'm reminded of this bit that really puts how you say things into perspective- timing and intent is important. 

(Sorry about the link, this is where I found it and I don't have another source right now. Saw this a week ago)

https://v.redd.it/e5tt2oboaiqa1

Edited April 7, 2023 by Socraticat
Updated external link

[didkodidko]

It's literally the same physics engine as KSP1. Which was it's only flaw.

KSP2 should have covered that foremost of all.

[Gargamel]

9 hours ago, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

@Gargamel Its best in my opinion to maybe lock or delete this thread. its lost its meaning.

You’re right, creating a thread specifically to criticize other’s opinions probably wasn’t such a good idea.   Locked at OP’s request, but please report a thread instead of pinging individual moderators.  
 

Some pointless bickering and some off topic posts have been removed.