KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[moeggz]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

"simply added" (while having no insight at all on how long it took to develop) (and forgetting that it needed serious fixes in subsequent patches because it was broken) (also forgetting that said patches over the next several months added a bunch of new features of the system that were absent on release)

3 months. It was three months, two patch fixes and 1 major revision from the first introduction to the final version still in the game. 
 

It was supposedly ready for release a “brief window”after launch. Even if we give them 2 months, that’s 4 months then from when it should have been ready. 
 

One whole extra month than what KSP1 took to bug fix and revise the system to its final form.

No matter how you slice it, KSP2 is taking longer to develop and the devs have repeatedly misled (assumedly unintentionally) about timeframes. 
 

They added it after two less years of development then the KSP2 devs have taken, and took (at least) 3 months less then the KSP2 devs have taken to refine and bugfix. Given that context, “simply added” is an accurate phrasing. 
 

They apologized, and I’m happy to move along. But then they immediately delayed the patch and have gone basically radio silent on that delay for two days now. If they don’t want a grumpy community at some point they have to “overdeliver” for the “under promise overdeliver” strategy to work and so far they can’t even deliver. 
 

Edit: timing for 0.1.4 just announced so that’s appreciated. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by moeggz

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, Alexoff said:

And in KSP 1.0, heating was simply added and that's it.

And it's bad, something modders had to fix like much of the rest of KSP 1 (systemheat shouldn't neeed to exist), indicative of the "that's a problem for future me / the community to fix" way Squad tended to develop things. Frankly, the community deserves a spot in the KSP 1 credits more than everyone from Squad did

Also per Aziz.  "Heating was simply added" isn't how it happened.

[Bej Kerman]

37 minutes ago, moeggz said:

3 months ... “simply added” is an accurate phrasing. 

37 minutes ago, moeggz said:

they immediately delayed the patch and have gone basically radio silent on that delay for two days now

If you can wait 3 months for Squad to deliver heat, can't you wait a couple of days while the devs have a well-deserved break?

[Alexoff]

2 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Speaking of this, could someone with much better memory than mine tell me if I remember correctly that, around launch, it was suggested re-entry heating will be “turned on a bit later” in KSP2 (to avoid further performance losses), and that that it just needs to be turned on later, suggesting it was more or less ready?

It's just that development is underway on the planet Miller

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

while having no insight at all on how long it took to develop

I know - less than 5 years

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

and forgetting that it needed serious fixes in subsequent patches because it was broken

Someone thinks that KSP2 will not have such fixes?

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

forgetting that said patches over the next several months added a bunch of new features of the system that were absent on release

"said"

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

"simply added"

They just added it without telling everyone about the difficulties and the heroism shown.

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

Try making a mining rig in ksp 1 with insufficient number of radiators. Put it on Minmus (or any place), and start mining. Then immediately increase timewarp, and see what will happen. 

With a large drill, I have done this many times without any radiators at all. When can I do this in KSP2? When will the resources appear? At least one

[Bej Kerman]

16 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

while having no insight at all on how long it took to develop

I know - less than 5 years

How long did it take Squad to implement multiplayer?

[razark]

4 hours ago, moeggz said:

have gone basically radio silent on that delay for two days now

They released news on Friday, and went quiet for a couple days.

That's just called "a weekend".

 

Gods forbid they have some downtime, rather than be chained to their desks.

[moeggz]

8 minutes ago, razark said:

They released news on Friday, and went quiet for a couple days.

That's just called "a weekend".

 

Gods forbid they have some downtime, rather than be chained to their desks.

And I said two days, not four. I only counted Monday and Tuesday and edited my comment when Dakota made the announcement. 
 

I never implied that anyone should be chained to their desk, I think such exaggerations are unhelpful and are a big part of the reason the forums are such an unwelcoming place. 

[PDCWolf]

6 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Speaking of this, could someone with much better memory than mine tell me if I remember correctly that, around launch, it was suggested re-entry heating will be “turned on a bit later” in KSP2 (to avoid further performance losses), and that that it just needs to be turned on later, suggesting it was more or less ready?

Also, I remember similar talks, shortly after launch, from people taking a peek inside game files, who concluded a lot of future features or roadmap items, while currently not visible to players, are there in the background, in the later stages of development, and it will be smooth sailing from here onwards. Haven’t seen updates to those claims since then, wonder what happened and if true, why those low hanging fruits are simply left there to rot. 

You can find the source for that and other similar claims right in this same thread. I couldn't find the source but I'm 100% (yes, not even 99%) sure they told at least one of the main media event youtubers (SWDennis, Matt Lowne, ShadowZone, Scott Manley, EJ) that heating was gonna be there on release.

5 hours ago, The Aziz said:

"simply added" (while having no insight at all on how long it took to develop) (and forgetting that it needed serious fixes in subsequent patches because it was broken) (also forgetting that said patches over the next several months added a bunch of new features of the system that were absent on release)

The problem with comparisons like these is that we'll always fall back on the fact that KSP1 development, with all its ups and downs, was mostly fronted by 5 indie dudes, after being manned by mostly a single one in his spare time after work for 3 years, whilst KSP2 has been in development since 2017, by 2 different professional studios and the literal biggest publisher in gaming financing them. That's why these comparisons don't work, people really need to stop thinking lowering PD/IG/T2 to the SQUAD standard is somehow a justification.

4 hours ago, chd said:

Just jumped into the EA release for the firs time today. I apologize for not having read all of the 61 pages in this thread, but... yeah, bit of work still to do.

It appears my HECS probe core is indestructible. I launched one up to about 230km, and then it fell back and slammed into the ground at something like 2000m/s, completely destroying everything... except the HECS core, which bounced about a dozen times before finally coming to rest a long way away. (Also, while it was bouncing the camera position dropped below the terrain mesh a couple or times, letting me see the underground star field.) I assume the blocky HUD graphics are just placeholders for now.

I think I'll wait a bit before spending too much time with it for now...

If you can make a proper bug report for that in the subforum (or find someone who's already posted it and upvote them) that'd be helpful.

[razark]

33 minutes ago, moeggz said:

And I said two days, not four. I only counted Monday and Tuesday... 

Crap.  Lost track of what day it was.  Mea culpa on that one.

However, update Friday, then skip Saturday and Sunday, nothing on Monday, more news on Tuesday.  I count three, or one if you skip the weekend.

 

33 minutes ago, moeggz said:

I never implied that anyone should be chained to their desk, I think such exaggerations are unhelpful and are a big part of the reason the forums are such an unwelcoming place. 

I'm not going to deny engaging in some exaggeration¹, but I hope my point is not missed anyway.  Expecting constant updates every few days is somewhat unreasonable.  Is it that much of a loss to not know what's going on for a few days?  At worst, people don't get to play a video game as soon as they wanted, or at all.

They did announce there was going to be a delay ahead of time, and gave a vague reasoning.  What value is it to the community to know the exact details of the reason?  Knowing is not going to make the wait any shorter, and any explanation they give is going to be scrutinized and declared to be signs of incompetence or malice, or at best misdirection.

 

 

¹And it happens on both sides.  People literally called a sale an "insult" and "slap in the face".

Edited August 23, 2023 by razark

[moeggz]

56 minutes ago, razark said:

more news on Tuesday.  I count three, or one if you skip the weekend.

The news came late Tuesday, which is why I edited my comment as I would also count it as just 1 full business day with them making the statement late Tuesday. 1 full day and most of a second. 

56 minutes ago, razark said:

Expecting constant updates every few days is somewhat unreasonable.  Is it that much of a loss to not know what's going on for a few days?

Agreed that that expectation would be unreasonable. But that’s not my expectation and nowhere did I voice that expectation. A company fresh off an apology for the game not meeting expectations and promising to keep clear communication going quiet over the delay for the very next patch isn’t a great way to start off (imo). I’m not expecting updates every few days, but if something is announced with a date the date should be met. This is why I prefer no dates and for updates to just drop, but they shared the date. If it’s not met then open communication, to me, would include at least a rough estimate on the length of the delay. 
 

I wasn’t as interested in the reasonings for the delay as in the length of the delay.

56 minutes ago, razark said:

Knowing is not going to make the wait any shorter, and any explanation they give is going to be scrutinized and declared to be signs of incompetence or malice, or at best misdirection

This is the result of their own actions. Community trust was high up to launch, if they want to get back to community goodwill they are going to have to start meeting some of the expectations they intentionally created.
 

56 minutes ago, razark said:

¹And it happens on both sides.  People literally called a sale an "insult" and "slap in the face".

As far as your broader point here goes yes all people (myself included and not just KSP2 fans of either side of this debate) make exaggerations at times. Constructive conversation (to me) involves pointing out when these and other leaps are made to stay on the same page. 

As for the specific point, they’ve apologized (not for that but in general) so I don’t really want to get dragged into debates of past actions of the devs. 

 

[razark]

10 minutes ago, moeggz said:

The news came late Tuesday, which is why I edited my comment as I would also count it as just 1 full business day with them making the statement late Tuesday. 1 full day and most of a second. 

I get the counting, and we can argue over how many days it was, but it's not going to be productive, especially since we're talking about one day.  There was a delay, and they didn't specify what caused it or how long it would be immediately.  To be honest, they still haven't explained the why.  They only specified that the delay was because something caused a small drop in framerates.  It just strikes me as complaining that they didn't respond quick enough, when there wasn't really much else they could do.

 

10 minutes ago, moeggz said:

A company... going quiet over the delay for the very next patch isn’t a great way to start off (imo).

True, but it's not exactly a long delay or a critical issue.  If it was something they dragged out for longer than a week, I could understand people being somewhat upset.  In the scheme of things, an update to a video game isn't really that big of a deal.

 

21 minutes ago, moeggz said:

...if something is announced with a date the date should be met. This is why I prefer no dates and for updates to just drop, but they shared the date. If it’s not met then open communication, to me, would include at least a rough estimate on the length of the delay.

I just assume that every date they announce is a "we want to do thing by date", and I'm not sure why anyone else would do otherwise.  They announce they're going to try, but dates are dictated by reality, and reality doesn't always match the spreadsheet.  The only way they know they can release something on a certain date is if they know it's already in a releasable state.  If it's in a releasable state, then they would be able to release it already.  Anything else is always going to be an estimate.

 

10 minutes ago, moeggz said:

wasn’t as interested in the reasonings for the delay as in the length of the delay.

See above.  If they knew how long it was going to take, they would have mentioned a different intended release date in the first place.  Unpredictable things have a tendency to be unforeseen.

 

10 minutes ago, moeggz said:

This is the result of their own actions. Community trust was high up to launch, if they want to get back to community goodwill they are going to have to start meeting some of the expectations they intentionally created.

I don't disagree.  I just think that the community could try and meet them halfway.  I see a lot of people that seem to think that the entire issue is the fault of the devs/the company.  A lot of hype was built up for this game, but not all of it was on the dev/company side.  I remember a lot of speculation about how the game was going to be based on the community building fantasies on any little bit of information that was released.

 

11 minutes ago, moeggz said:

As for the specific point, they’ve apologized (not for that but in general) so I don’t really want to get dragged into debates of past actions of the devs. 

I wasn't bringing up that incident for any specific reason; it was just something I was quickly able to reference.

A lot of people do like to bring up the past actions of the devs, but that's another argument that I really don't intend (or want) to start, so let's please not.  It wouldn't be productive for any of us.

[LoSBoL]

2 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

whilst KSP2 has been in development since 2017, by 2 different professional studios and the literal biggest publisher in gaming financing them. That's why these comparisons don't work, people really need to stop thinking lowering PD/IG/T2 to the SQUAD standard is somehow a justification.

Financing business units like Private Division is not unlimited, Such labels need to keep up their own pants and are responsible for their own profits and losses. They don't just have the abilities and certainly not the financial possibilities as their mother company. Private Division was created as an label to house Indie type games as an enhanced market for Take2, they can't be thrown on a pile with Take2 as 'the same standard to be upheld upon' as frequently argumented, it doesn't work that way and you probably do know that.

[cocoscacao]

6 hours ago, Alexoff said:

With a large drill, I have done this many times without any radiators at all. When can I do this in KSP2?

Hopefully never. That's the difference they are aiming for. 

I'm fine with criticism, but at least, try getting your comparisons correctly. 

[Bej Kerman]

7 hours ago, moeggz said:

I never implied that anyone should be chained to their desk,

"Them going radio silent for two days" is a very harsh way to phrase "they had a weekend". 

[Alexoff]

10 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

How long did it take Squad to implement multiplayer?

You mean implement multiplayer to the roadmap?

4 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

Hopefully never. That's the difference they are aiming for. 

I'm fine with criticism, but at least, try getting your comparisons correctly. 

Unfortunately, I don't know where Squad was aiming. Nobody can not compare

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

10 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

How long did it take Squad to implement multiplayer?

You mean implement multiplayer to the roadmap?

Modders proved multiplayer can happen and the community wanted it. How long did it take Squad to implement multiplayer?

[cocoscacao]

33 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Unfortunately, I don't know where Squad was aiming. Nobody can not compare

Then why compare it? And why criticize the latter work, which is clearly different and more complex? 

Edited August 23, 2023 by cocoscacao
Changed the answer

[moeggz]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Them going radio silent for two days" is a very harsh way to phrase "they had a weekend". 

So I said “basically went radio silent” and two days, as I have already clarified, I only counted the business days. Man I would love 4 day weekends every week, if weekends aren’t Friday-Tuesday please discuss what I actually said.

And also very harsh? I listed their actions. If you take that as very harsh criticism I don’t even know what to say. In my world, I receive negative feedback from coworkers, my boss, customers, and my family. When that feedback is just “heres what you did” and “here’s what I would like for you to do” I consider it constructive feedback.

[PDCWolf]

6 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

Financing business units like Private Division is not unlimited, Such labels need to keep up their own pants and are responsible for their own profits and losses. They don't just have the abilities and certainly not the financial possibilities as their mother company. Private Division was created as an label to house Indie type games as an enhanced market for Take2, they can't be thrown on a pile with Take2 as 'the same standard to be upheld upon' as frequently argumented, it doesn't work that way and you probably do know that.

Look at the bigger project from the money T2 really had to put in: They financed two studios to make this game, including the rehiring process on the second. I highly doubt any other publisher would even bother wasting that much money to sell less than a million copies.

[LoSBoL]

5 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Look at the bigger project from the money T2 really had to put in: They financed two studios to make this game, including the rehiring process on the second. I highly doubt any other publisher would even bother wasting that much money to sell less than a million copies.

You are so right, KSP2 will sell for a decade, when they get it right, and it's got all the time of the world to get there, there is no rush to get it done, or to throw money at it right now to get it done faster. That's why the disastrous launch didn't even get mentioned in the quarterly investors update.

[PDCWolf]

2 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

 That's why the disastrous launch didn't even get mentioned in the quarterly investors update.

You don't mention that stuff to investors. First off because the media does, second off because investors can look at broken up numbers and realize by themselves.

Edit to add: You can always check for yourself. Right now, KSP2 is mentioned, and KSP earnings are under the "franchise" denomination. KSP2 clearly hasn't surpassed its predecessor and has to still hide under it for investors' eyes. https://www.take2games.com/ir/quarterly-earnings <<< You can also see PD's other game here, for now set to "Early 2024".

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by PDCWolf

[LoSBoL]

6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

You don't mention that stuff to investors. First off because the media does, second off because investors can look at broken up numbers and realize by themselves.

 

You do mention it, when the long term investment and profit does not look like it will end up to it's expectations. That is, If you don't want to get sued.

[PDCWolf]

Just now, LoSBoL said:

You do mention it, when the long term investment and profit does not look like it will end up to it's expectations. That is, If you don't want to get sued.

Funny you'd want that discussion when the evidence you don't is right there. You tell them the franchise is doing great (which it is, listed as one of the 5 million + copies seller), you just don't tell them how the individual games in that franchise are.

[Alexoff]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Modders proved multiplayer can happen and the community wanted it. How long did it take Squad to implement multiplayer?

Modders implemented multiplayer to ksp1 in less than 5 years of development

2 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

Then why compare it? And why criticize the latter work, which is clearly different and more complex? 

Then why did you propose to me to extract resources on Minmus? I have seen nothing but the concept of heating and resources in KSP2. I think the squad concepts were also big, since initially it was about resources, and not about one ore.

[cocoscacao]

5 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Then why did you propose to me to extract resources on Minmus? I have seen nothing but the concept of heating and resources in KSP2. I think the squad concepts were also big, since initially it was about resources, and not about one ore.

Because mining is also related to heat management, and it shows beautifuly how the systems differ, and why ksp 2 version is way more difficult to implement... as well as other systems...