Post on Intercept Games discord

[The Aziz]

18 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Ah yes, remember when this was supposed to come out every 2 weeks and the last one we have is from almost a month ago?

Source: https://discord.com/channels/1039959585949237268/1080246925699326032/1129535564564152321 (you can see it on the tracker)

There was no report on 25th because the update was supposed to be out on 22nd. There was no point in dropping another report a week before the actual update, with most likely no changes to it. And it's still less than two weeks after that so... But hey, whatever makes you feel better.

[PDCWolf]

4 hours ago, Spicat said:

In dev tracker also.

It's because things are moving a lot when a patch release (new bugs, more people playing...).

So, they miss it for 3 weeks, and when it's about to hit the 4th we get the "oh no, it's 2 weeks post patch". Reminds me of how they appended "unless sales" to the original statement. It also reminds me of Fatshark: "It's not a lie, the truth changed"

4 hours ago, razark said:

They missed one on the 25th¹, probably because they were busy getting the patch ready.  I'd say the patch is more valuable and tells more about the state of bug fixing and game progress than a forum post.

I mean yeah, if fixes don't come in the update, you know they didn't make it to the update, that's obvious.

K.E.R.B. is more interesting for "long term" bugs like wobble. In fact, from the bugs that are on the last K.E.R.B. only the following made it to the patch notes: 2 (partially), 4 (partially? patch mentions UI, not clouds), one instance of 5, 14, and 20. I hope you understand my gripe with how, for posts that are supposed to be informative (Patch notes, K.E.R.B.) the promised periodicity is now optional, and they've made it clear that including fixes in the patch notes is optional as well.

What do we get? two completely disjointed, incomplete, impossible to track bug lists. I guess it's par for the course for what's essentially shotgunning information all over and have users fetch like dogs.

Edited September 10, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Spicat]

On 9/10/2023 at 4:27 PM, PDCWolf said:

So, they miss it for 3 weeks, and when it's about to hit the 4th we get the "oh no, it's 2 weeks post patch". Reminds me of how they appended "unless sales" to the original statement. It also reminds me of Fatshark: "It's not a lie, the truth changed"

(Snip)

No it was planned this message was just one week after the patch, another one on the day of the patch:

With how much bugs changed (I counted 12 bugs in that list that are actually fixed), it's normal to postpone the KERB. I looked up with how much the top 20 changed since the patch and the list was wildly unstable (Still a bit but seems to stabilize).

Maybe they could have released a small KERB with only the top 5 bugs, but even this list has changed apart from the top 2, so maybe just top 2.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Gargamel
Portions Redacted by moderator

[PDCWolf]

On 9/10/2023 at 6:05 PM, Spicat said:

(Snip)

No it was planned this message was just one week after the patch, another one on the day of the patch:

 

My guy, you're telling me that whilst posting lost bits from the discord that unless you scroll the dev tracker every single day, you're 90% sure gonna miss. We have threads about small posts on twitter, we have threads about reddit posts/announcements, we have threads about literal discord screencaps, we have the K.E.R.B., we have Patch Notes, we have AMAs. It sure does sound like a lot, yet here we are, trying to go piece by piece to see what the heck they're doing with bugfixes because they can't bother to make complete patchnotes, or keep the K.E.R.B. updated, or talk in any sort of official manner because they canned the upnates, and they refuse to answer anything useful about the game in AMAs.

I'm seeing incompetence first, with a smell of "maybe they're doing it on purpose" second.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Gargamel
Portions of quote redacted by moderator

[Spicat]

5 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I'm seeing incompetence first, with a smell of "maybe they're doing it on purpose" second.

Try at least to understand why things are like they are before getting mad at everything.

That's like the DRM error when everyone went on their way to insult devs before trying to see it was an obvious mistake.

I agree that the communication isn't ideal but instead of acknowledging the fact you didn't know and being mad about that, you see malice instead and become snarky about it..

[PDCWolf]

2 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Try at least to understand why things are like they are before getting mad at everything.

That's like the DRM error when everyone went on their way to insult devs before trying to see it was an obvious mistake.

I agree that the communication isn't ideal but instead of acknowledging the fact you didn't know and being mad about that, you see malice instead and become snarky about it..

Oh no, I'm totally in the wrong for not knowing, I get that, however think for a second why didn't I know: I'm not on the discord, and even then, it seems the discord is also not the place to get the complete news about the game, and that's even if you do spend the time going back and forth tracking every message by the about 5 different people that talk officially about the game's progress, updates, and such.

Plus, it's hard to think about joining the discord when considering the stuff that's allowed in there, which you know about.

[Spicat]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

Oh no, I'm totally in the wrong for not knowing, I get that, however think for a second why didn't I know: I'm not on the discord, and even then, it seems the discord is also not the place to get the complete news about the game, and that's even if you do spend the time going back and forth tracking every message by the about 5 different people that talk officially about the game's progress, updates, and such.

Plus, it's hard to think about joining the discord when considering the stuff that's allowed in there, which you know about.

That was not the point I was making.

I say it again, the communication isn't ideal, but you weren't complaining about that initially but that they rewrited "the truth" because they are imcompetent.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, Spicat said:

That was not the point I was making.

I say it again, the communication isn't ideal, but you weren't complaining about that initially but that they rewrited "the truth" because they are imcompetent.

Two separate things: They've "rewritten the truth" twice (prices, now K.E.R.B. scheduling). AND I believe there's incompetence involved in how almost 7 months later we're still fighting with something as basic as knowing what is going on/what is being said about the game (which, by it being this long, that feeling of incompetence is starting to turn into suspicions of intention).

[razark]

9 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

They've "rewritten the truth" twice (prices, now K.E.R.B. scheduling).

As I recall, they said the price would go up at 1.0 release.  Nothing they've done or said has been contrary to that.

They said "we're sticking with [the schedule] for now" three months ago.  Are they never allowed to change, or do you really expect a report every two weeks until the game is released?

[PDCWolf]

14 minutes ago, razark said:

As I recall, they said the price would go up at 1.0 release.  Nothing they've done or said has been contrary to that.

They said "we're sticking with [the schedule] for now" three months ago.  Are they never allowed to change, or do you really expect a report every two weeks until the game is released?

I expect that, when they decided it was gonna be only "post-patch", that they'd told us so, and not almost a month later when people start asking. They're obviously in their entire right to change things up, just communicate them, clearly, in a timely manner.  It's precisely the problem that we have to play both charades, fetch, and jeopardy with them to get information, and even then we have to hopefully all be tuned into like 5 different channels to get all the bits and pieces they throw out.

The exact phrase was "The game’s price will certainly increase when 1.0 arrives", and it was clear that most people understood that this message implied the game's price was not gonna go down, otherwise we wouldn't have had this thread at the time and then them having to add "unless sales" to clarify.

[razark]

I completely agree about them not posting reliably in any single location.  It's absolutely ridiculous.  Other aspects of their communication strategy also need work.  But a lot of people seem to be reading a lot more into what they say than what they actually say.  "The game’s price will certainly increase when 1.0 arrives" means one thing, and only one thing.  The price will increase when 1.0 is released.  They didn't say it wouldn't go up or down before 1.0, or that sales would not occur; they said the price at 1.0 will be higher than the price immediately prior to 1.0.

Edited September 11, 2023 by razark

[PDCWolf]

49 minutes ago, razark said:

I completely agree about them not posting reliably in any single location.  It's absolutely ridiculous.  Other aspects of their communication strategy also need work.  But a lot of people seem to be reading a lot more into what they say than what they actually say.  "The game’s price will certainly increase when 1.0 arrives" means one thing, and only one thing.  The price will increase when 1.0 is released.  They didn't say it wouldn't go up or down before 1.0, or that sales would not occur; they said the price at 1.0 will be higher than the price immediately prior to 1.0.

Clearly the "unless sales" bit was needed, otherwise it's pretty normal (based on percentage of people that interpreted that here in the forums and other sites like reddit). A lot (to the point I'd gladly say most) people interpret the statement as also implying "The game’s price will certainly increase when 1.0 arrives [and not decrease anywhen else]". You're free to your interpretation, I really don't wanna argue semantics of a language that's not mine, and I'm "happy enough" to know I wasn't alone or in the minority on what I got from that statement.

[razark]

"No microtransactions" was clearly stated, but people still post their worries about it being added, so it really doesn't matter what the devs or PR folks say.  People are going to read whatever they want into it anyway.

 

28 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I really don't wanna argue semantics...

Well, the entire premise of the argument discussion is based on it, so I guess there's nowhere to go from here.

Edited September 11, 2023 by razark
I used "argument" in the formal sense. Don't want to mischaracterize the exchange here.

[RocketRockington]

13 minutes ago, razark said:

"No microtransactions" was clearly stated, but people still post their worries about it being added, so it really doesn't matter what the devs or PR folks say.  People are going to read whatever they want into it anyway.

 

Well, the entire premise of the argument is based on it, so I guess there's nowhere to go from here.

The premise of the argument was whether communications to the community are good. 

You're claiming communications are good only if you examine each weasel-worded sentence and only construe from it the exact logical definition.   If you have to blame the community for not 'understanding' the meaning of statements that pretty clearly convey one intent but semantically mean something else - then you're basically saying that yes, the communications are bad, whether its deliberately bad to fool people into thinking they are getting a discount by purchasing early, or just bad because they said something that they didn't intend, then didn't correct the community at any point when they could have until after the sale was already announced.

[PicoSpace]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:57 PM, PDCWolf said:

So, there's a 1.5 before science? First time I feel my "science in October/November" bet is actually threatened.

 

I polled my Audience (its still early days for the poll) but most people are thinking Decemeber, so KSP2 christmas present will hopefully be science + reheating (both effect and phsyics) and a bunch of bug fixes.

21 minutes ago, razark said:

"No microtransactions" was clearly stated, but people still post their worries about it being added, so it really doesn't matter what the devs or PR folks say.  People are going to read whatever they want into it anyway.

 

Well, the entire premise of the argument is based on it, so I guess there's nowhere to go from here.

With Mod Support & No DRM I can't see Microtransactions working in practise; and I don't think that is the spirit of KSP/Devs and the community as a whole.

[razark]

7 minutes ago, PicoSpace said:

With Mod Support & No DRM I can't see Microtransactions working in practise; and I don't think that is the spirit of KSP/Devs and the community as a whole.

I agree, but the question still gets brought up on occasion.

[PDCWolf]

35 minutes ago, razark said:

"No microtransactions" was clearly stated, but people still post their worries about it being added, so it really doesn't matter what the devs or PR folks say.  People are going to read whatever they want into it anyway.

Well, I'll fall into repeating myself again. "No Microtransactions" comes from the same people that brought us:

• Re-entry heating will be there in release
• ^ will be in shortly after release
• ^ will be added shortly after this patch (when they teased the effect back in like april).
• The price will increase. (Yes, I know).
• The K.E.R.B. will be posted every two weeks.
• The game is ready for release and we're only polishing it (2020, 2021, 2022).
• The game will enter early access in an advanced beta state.
• Velocity is good.
• We're slowing down updates so they're more polished.
• And so many more classic hits.

They don't have the credibility to just throw "no microtransactions" around and expect people to believe them. You're reversing cause and consequence: it's their own lack of credibility and absolutely disastrous communication that makes the community not believe what they say.

[razark]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

Well, I'll fall into repeating myself again.

42 minutes ago, razark said:

... so I guess there's nowhere to go from here.

 

[razark]

First, I'm not sure why this just popped up, since it was posted a while ago.  Strange.

 

45 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

The premise of the argument was whether communications to the community are good. 

No, it was whether the posts we got were truthful and accurate.  The start of this was basically accusing the company of putting out inaccurate information or backtracking on some comment posted months ago about a situation that had a high likelihood of changing.

I concede that the communication style is bad.

46 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

You're claiming communications are good only if...

No, I'm claiming the communications are worded perfectly fine, and deliberate or accidental misreading of them are a large part of the problem around here.

47 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

weasel-worded sentence

"When X, thenY" is pretty damn clear, really.  It does not exclude anything outside of that condition. 

if ((release_number > previous release) && (release_number >= 1))
  price_go_up();

is NOT the same as

if (release_number < 1)
  current_price = current_price;

and I can't understand what would make people think it is.

49 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

statements that pretty clearly convey one intent but semantically mean something else

Sigh.  Really?  Please explain in some sort of detail how that statement means anything other than what that statement states.

50 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

then you're basically saying that yes, the communications are bad

I've never said the communications aren't bad.  We just think they're bad for different reasons, I guess.

51 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

fool people into thinking they are getting a discount by purchasing early

That's pretty clear.  The price is lower for EA than it will be for full release.  That doesn't mean the price won't change or go on sale during EA.  Why would you even think that's what they said?  Can you provide the quotes that support that?

56 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

they said something that they didn't intend

Or they said exactly what they intended and some people misconstrued it, whether deliberately or accidentally.

58 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

didn't correct the community at any point when they could have until after the sale was already announced.

What point would that be?!?  (part of) The community didn't throw a temper tantrum until they announced a sale!  What possible reason would they have to correct (part of) the community's misrepresentation of their statement until it was clear (part of) the community misunderstood the statement?  We've already established that the devs/PR folks/publisher/managers/company as a whole are incompetent buffoons that have no idea what they're doing, and now we're going to complain that they're not mind readers, either?

Badly worded communications are the reason that early purchasers of KSP got free DLC.  Something that the new company stood by, by the way.  Why would they not be careful about what they say, because (part of) the community will take any opportunity to turn whatever they say against them?

 

Anyway, see previous post.

[Periple]

If you assume bad faith, then even “there will be no microtransactions” becomes “there will be microtransactions.” Not a whole lot anyone can do about that!

[PDCWolf]

7 hours ago, Periple said:

If you assume bad faith, then even “there will be no microtransactions” becomes “there will be microtransactions.” Not a whole lot anyone can do about that!

On the one hand people tell me if they didn't include "WE PROMISE"  then it is not a promise [1] [2] [3], then I'm told that everything is highly changing, so whatever they say pretty much holds no value? [1], then the communicators themselves clearly produce borderline lying statements [see list above].

AND THEN I'm expected to take "No microtransactions" (which doesn't include we promise btw), and of course is also part of a highly changing context, at face value. It makes no sense that you'd ask anyone to believe that statement when at the same time you're telling them nothing is believable unless they say we promise, and even then things can change.

None of you can't be serious at this point.

[Strawberry]

On further thought wouldnt bet on it but wouldnt be suprised if we get halfway wobble fixes. I dont think itll be in the full scope we want/the dev team intends, but I wont be suprised if we get something that helps a decent bit.

[Alpha_star]

Time for more pointless analysis!

I know that digging past records and assuming that it'll stay the same in the future is dumb, but 0.1.5 looks a lot alike 0.1.3 to me, both targeting to fix major issues and adding new parts/features. So my guess is 0.1.5 will be around two months after 0.1.4, hopefully releasing before mid-November. However, it's also possible that they're targeting Halloween/Christmas for science and want to have more time to polish that big update, in which case 0.1.5 will likely be mid to late October.

In the latest AMA, Chris Adderley has stated that thermal effects will come out before the actual system, and the development team has confirmed new features in 0.1.5 as this post has mentioned. I am likely to be wrong, but features are not the same as just some new parts. If correct, then 0.1.5 is confirmed to have either CBT terrain or thermal effects, with a slim chance of adding both. 0.1.5 is also probably the last patch before science/0.2.0, given the current status. This does not mean no future hotfixes though, especially if 0.1.5 introduces some new serious bugs.

Just my humble opinion.

[cocoscacao]

Eh... I get the feeling that the major rift here is because some folk expected to be able to play this game way sooner.

[RocketRockington]

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

Eh... I get the feeling that the major rift here is because some folk expected to be able to play this game way sooner.

Nah the major rift is because the picture the hype and marketing painted was so dramatically different from the result, and some people are fine with the discrepancy - even seeming to revel in it, becoming very holier than thou about how patient or bug-tolerant or game-development knowledgeable they are, as if it's normal to claim to be polishing a complete product and then delivering a pre alpha buggy tech demo  - and some people just don't like being taken advantage of or being lied to, and won't let Go of the fact that that happened, won't accept expectation-lowering.  This is not the KSP2 that was hyped by the developers, not even close. 

And yes, that includes expecting the game to be playable - but these are not made up expectations based on imagination.  This is based on 3 years of the dev team pushing trailers and giving interviews about a complete game that was supposed to be better than KSP1.

I don't care if you are ok with it or not, but some people seem to have entirely forgotten or forgiven, and set their expectations based on the idea that now the tram is going to be honest and transparent.  The rest of us expect bad faith because bad faith has been shown.