KSP2 Tech tree and For Science! VAB (and analysis)

[Strawberry]

Okay if you just want to see decently high quality images of the tech tree and the VAB here you go:

Tech tree:

Spoiler

VAB:

Spoiler

If you want to see my analysis of these images, just like read the next part of this duh. Obvious disclaimer, I am just a guy, I could be wrong about some, none, or all of this. This is also a wip build we are seeing, stuff may and likely will easily change. 

Through the VAB, we see 9 science parts, I am pretty sure that these are all the science parts as of semi current build. The reason why I believe this is we see 7 nodes on the tech tree with the science icon, which presumably unlock a science part. One of the nodes has a rover icon, but appears to be named autonomous imaging, which would fit for the camera rover part we see in the VAB. This gives us 8 nodes that seem to unlock a science part, and when we add the one science part we start off with, we get 9! This means that in theory, we can use the name of the science nodes and try to line them up with the image of science parts we see in order to guess at what they will do. I am now going to try to go through each one numerically and try and link it up with a science node.

Okay so the 8 nodes we see that probably unlock a science part are (going in order off of the tech tree here): Environmental science, Research miniaturization, Atmospheric science, Autonomous imaging, Radiation science, Orbital science, Aquatic science, and finally Orbital report. 

Science Jr probably doesnt line up with a node, because its probably the part we start unlocked. This part seems to work anywhere, the behavior of this part is probably the same as mystery goo from ksp1. 

Environmental science and Research miniaturization probably unlock the two golden XS squares we see,  I doubt there's much too special with these parts as theyre unlocked pretty early on in the tech tree. If I were to guess these parts gimmicks, one of them probably introduces return limits (ie needs to be returned to ksc), and one of them probably is the first part to have science over time. This guess is purely off the fact I feel like part complexity will be introduced gradually so it makes sense for the first few parts to be pretty simple. 

Atmospheric science is probably the fly by wire looking thing. This is because its a XS part (thus making sense to unlock early on in the tech tree), and its a nose cone, hard to get more atmosphericy then that. If I were to guess this parts gimmick, it probably generates science over time and needs to be in atmosphere (duh), so if you need a plane to analyze it.

Autonomous imaging is probably the camera on a stick. This is probably just the scanning arm from breaking ground. 

Radiation science is almost certainly the cylindrical thing titled radiation survey we see selection. idk if there will be anything too special for this, hopefully it needs EC or something. 

Orbital science is probably the other small sized part with all the stuff sticking out with it. Probably will only work while in orbit and over time. 

Aquatic science is probably the spherical one. It looks like a diving bell, so it will probably only work while in liquid. We know from code some parts will have a crew requirement and this part seems to have a door. You will probably need this one to be manned.

Orbital report is probably the one with the purple thing attached to it, I dont feel like this one will be too special. Has a door so probably has a crew requirement, also probably will only work in orbit.

[Royalswissarmyknife]

That XS sized nosecone "Science Thing™" looks a lot like its for a sounding rocket.

Spoiler

Its probably for a plane though.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Royalswissarmyknife

[Mutex]

Am I right in understanding we have eight different types of science to collect now, in order to unlock the parts in the corresponding tech tree? So for example, if we want to unlock the parts in the radiation science tab, we need to go and collect science using the radiation survey?

Edited October 22, 2023 by Mutex

[The Aziz]

Unfortunately, nothing on the tech tree explains how one node leads to the next one.

[Strawberry]

3 minutes ago, Mutex said:

Am I right in understanding we have eight different types of science to collect now, in order to unlock the parts in the corresponding tech tree? So for example, if we want to unlock the parts in the radiation science tab, we need to go and connect science using the radiation survey?

UI only suggests one general type of science so probably no, past statements also suggest that.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Strawberry

[PDCWolf]

13 minutes ago, Mutex said:

Am I right in understanding we have eight different types of science to collect now, in order to unlock the parts in the corresponding tech tree? So for example, if we want to unlock the parts in the radiation science tab, we need to go and connect science using the radiation survey?

From the tech tree images, all "cost" labels have the same icon, so I'm guessing we're still on a unique "science" currency. The Mission UI also suggests missions pay in a unique "science" currency.

Lastly, inventory image also shows everything has the same science icon right next to the values:

So that's a hard no. Science seems to be a unified currency once again.

It's really seems it'll be just a small remix of ksp1 science. Totally justifying the $50.

 

[Scarecrow71]

I am hoping those aren't the only 9 parts in the game.  A lot of us were really hoping for telescopes.

[Mutex]

20 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Unfortunately, nothing on the tech tree explains how one node leads to the next one.

It looks like in each tab there is one square you can unlock with "science" in its title, eg "radiation science", which probably unlocks the corresponding instrument and tab.

20 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

UI only suggests one general type of science so probably no, past statements also suggest that.

Hmm ok. I guess each tab is just unlocked when you unlock the corresponding science instrument in the previous tab, and that's the only connection.

[Sea_Kerman]

I was hoping for some sort of scansat thing, perhaps the orbital science one will do it. It's really cool to have that sort of "minigame" where you need to get into the correct orbit and resonance and stuff, and of course it takes some time.

And you can of course do more specific maneuvers to dogleg over something you want to get more info on fast.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Sea_Kerman

[Royalswissarmyknife]

The first part of the tech tree from here has different names then the one posted.

 

[InterstellarDrifter]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I am hoping those aren't the only 9 parts in the game.  A lot of us were really hoping for telescopes.

RIGHT!

Sadly, I think we're going to be waiting on Tarsier v 2.0 :-(

And, I think it's obvious that this community wants science to be more fun than - go here/there > click button > DONE! We want something more interactive/minigame like. I think this was the natural progression of KSP1 > KSP2, not this colonies thing. 

[Strawberry]

1 hour ago, Royalswissarmyknife said:

The first part of the tech tree from here has different names then the one posted.

Oh huh yeah good catch. Its important to note in general for this stuff is that all of this is still wip. Stuff will get changed, added, and maybe removed. Tbh main reason i posted this is because i realized one of the parts was likely a diving bell and having to make kerbals dive underwater to get science seems incredibly sick.
 

Re: telescopes, telescopes have been confirmed that they will be in the game eventually. That being said, its possible that they wont be in game until interstellar/we get asteroids as we wont exactly have things to telescope until then. The large science part with the purple thing attached to it we have seen in the past. But the old model for it had a jwst telescope while the new one has a purple greenhouse in its place. This either means that theyve decided no telescopes in general (unlikely), decided to isolate telescopes to their own parts that way it can be introduced when they fit the game, or a secret third thing that i cant think of.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Strawberry

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

8 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

It's really seems it'll be just a small remix of ksp1 science. Totally justifying the $50.

 

Well, if it ain’t broke…

Also, Where is your Christmas Spirit? 
(assuming it’s delivered around then)

[NH4Cl Enthusiast]

11 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Science seems to be a unified currency once again.

It's really seems it'll be just a small remix of ksp1 science. Totally justifying the $50.

 

Sadly this seems to be the case. I had a feeling it would be after the launch and seeing how they mostly just copied the parts from KSP1 so it makes sense they did the same with science. The mission screen looks like a port of the old contract system too, minus funds and reputation.

We'll probably have exactly the same progression and gameplay loop of mk 1 command pod on a solid booster, fly to 10k and get crew reports from low and high atmo. Unlock a few parts, repeat for orbit with liquid engine. Unlock more parts including a thermometer equivalent, click that one on low atmo, high atmo and orbit. Unlock more parts and repeat for the Mun and Minmus. Then unlock more science parts to fly to different places and click on them to get more unlocks.

Well I'm happy that they're finally adding features and people seem pleased so it is what it is I guess and I might be in the minority but I find it hard to get excited when there's no creative effort being made. I'll give it a fair chance but for now it looks like it's down to the colonies to save this game for me. 

[mcwaffles2003]

Was really hoping that the devs would take some inspiration from kerbalism and SCANsat here but that seems not to be that case.. I don't really want anything like mini-games for science, but I really did prefer the concept of holding a condition and passively collect while the experiments consume electricity for a duration to obtain science over simply just meeting a threshold for a moment and click a button for science.

[Alpha_star]

It seems like the new science parts are heavier than the ones in the original game, but with more unified functions. Each one of them appears to have the science-collecting abilities, so we likely won’t have ships stacked with science parts anymore. What’s more, small vessels will likely have to be designed around research parts instead of the oppsite.

[PDCWolf]

5 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Well, if it ain’t broke…

Also, Where is your Christmas Spirit? 
(assuming it’s delivered around then)

I think I said this on the heating system blog but here it goes: I don't expect my sequels to use the same systems, or much less (as the case with heating) to devolve. KSP is not a story game where you'd justify the sequel by the value of getting a continuation to the story, or a shooter that can justify a sequel by a number of under the hood transformations. KSP is a physics simulator, and physics haven't gotten better, and neither seemingly has any other system when compared to the prequel.

24 minutes ago, Alpha_star said:

It seems like the new science parts are heavier than the ones in the original game, but with more unified functions. Each one of them appears to have the science-collecting abilities, so we likely won’t have ships stacked with science parts anymore. What’s more, small vessels will likely have to be designed around research parts instead of the oppsite.

Not that big of a change unless you're really on your very early stages of learning how stuff works, and even then such a limitation will be a passing one.

2 hours ago, NH4Cl Enthusiast said:

Sadly this seems to be the case. I had a feeling it would be after the launch and seeing how they mostly just copied the parts from KSP1 so it makes sense they did the same with science. The mission screen looks like a port of the old contract system too, minus funds and reputation.

We'll probably have exactly the same progression and gameplay loop of mk 1 command pod on a solid booster, fly to 10k and get crew reports from low and high atmo. Unlock a few parts, repeat for orbit with liquid engine. Unlock more parts including a thermometer equivalent, click that one on low atmo, high atmo and orbit. Unlock more parts and repeat for the Mun and Minmus. Then unlock more science parts to fly to different places and click on them to get more unlocks.

Well I'm happy that they're finally adding features and people seem pleased so it is what it is I guess and I might be in the minority but I find it hard to get excited when there's no creative effort being made. I'll give it a fair chance but for now it looks like it's down to the colonies to save this game for me. 

I'd gather most people are pleased out of severe starvation. It's really been 8 months with literally nothing new on the game, at this point the people that actually were waiting for something would jump at the first sign of a feature and of course dust off their less-than-100 messages forum account to at least say something.

Edited October 23, 2023 by PDCWolf

[joratto]

What’s with the purple Union Jack experiment? Space greenhouse?

Life support confirmed! /s

[Scarecrow71]

9 hours ago, Strawberry said:

That being said, its possible that they wont be in game until interstellar/we get asteroids as we wont exactly have things to telescope until then.

Did they remove celestial bodies from the Kerbolar system?  Because it should be absolutely required to telescope them before you go there.  You should have to image Eve or Tylo or wherever before just blindly flying there and hoping for the best.  Heck, you could make the argument that you shouldn't know they exist until you image them.  Until then, they are just lights in the sky.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Scarecrow71

[Kerbart]

6 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Well, if it ain’t broke…

This community is divided on many things but "Science needs a huge improvement" isn't one of them.

[GluttonyReaper]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

I think I said this on the heating system blog but here it goes: I don't expect my sequels to use the same systems, or much less (as the case with heating) to devolve. KSP is not a story game where you'd justify the sequel by the value of getting a continuation to the story, or a shooter that can justify a sequel by a number of under the hood transformations. KSP is a physics simulator, and physics haven't gotten better, and neither seemingly has any other system when compared to the prequel.

The science/tech-tree system, to my mind, was probably the most robust career-ish part of KSP1 - not the most exciting, mind you, but it was functional gameplay loop that genuinely compelled you to keep sending out bigger and bolder missions to unlock new stuff, so I'm fairly happy with it being brought back for this game. I'm hoping they incorporate and expand on the more interesting variations we saw towards the end of KSP1's development (Kerbal-operated surface experiments, scanning tech requiring a specific orbit, etc.). It seems like they've also gutted the "fluffier" parts of career mode, like reputation and random contracts, presumably to be replaced by much better systems which is a good sign (I swear if I see a single strategy...)

As someone who hasn't really been following KSP2's development until recently, the physics seeming to be identical in principle to the first game is... unfortunate. It doesn't seem like there's been any huge performance jumps (i.e. higher part counts) from KSP1, which seems like a pretty big missed opportunity considering that was something that always felt like a hard unfixable limitation in the first game. Anything else though feels like fair game to be simplified or chopped and changed - in hindsight, KSP1's heating system was weirdly complex under-the-hood for something that boiled down to " just add more radiators and/or heatshields when things get too hot" overall. I'm personally much more concerned about systems actually working well together as a cohesive whole than each individual system being hyperrealistic. 

[PDCWolf]

5 minutes ago, GluttonyReaper said:

The science/tech-tree system, to my mind, was probably the most robust career-ish part of KSP1 - not the most exciting, mind you, but it was functional gameplay loop that genuinely compelled you to keep sending out bigger and bolder missions to unlock new stuff, so I'm fairly happy with it being brought back for this game. I'm hoping they incorporate and expand on the more interesting variations we saw towards the end of KSP1's development (Kerbal-operated surface experiments, scanning tech requiring a specific orbit, etc.). It seems like they've also gutted the "fluffier" parts of career mode, like reputation and random contracts, presumably to be replaced by much better systems which is a good sign (I swear if I see a single strategy...)

From AMAs and other media, Exploration is only based on managing "resources", which'd partly or only come from what they call "Discoverables" on planets. Those "Resources" are what's used for colony and shipyard (orbital or otherwise) construction. The only apparent installment of "guided gameplay" they've talked about is the "missions" we've seen here.

7 minutes ago, GluttonyReaper said:

As someone who hasn't really been following KSP2's development until recently, the physics seeming to be identical in principle to the first game is... unfortunate. It doesn't seem like there's been any huge performance jumps (i.e. higher part counts) from KSP1, which seems like a pretty big missed opportunity considering that was something that always felt like a hard unfixable limitation in the first game. Anything else though feels like fair game to be simplified or chopped and changed - in hindsight, KSP1's heating system was weirdly complex under-the-hood for something that boiled down to " just add more radiators and/or heatshields when things get too hot" overall. I'm personally much more concerned about systems actually working well together as a cohesive whole than each individual system being hyperrealistic. 

Except it didn't work like that. In KSP1 incorrectly managed heat would still build up, with proper flux mechanics and skin/core interactions so that the distance from heatsink parts to heat generators would actually matter for example. They're trying to sell those interactions as new when in reality now all parts combine into a magical heat number that gets subtracted from the heat dissipation number. Now, this new system does boil to "add heatsink parts literally anywhere".

 

[joratto]

34 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Did they remove celestial bodies from the Kerbolar system?  Because it should be absolutely required to telescope them before you go there.  You should have to image Eve or Tylo or wherever before just blindly flying there and hoping for the best.  Heck, you could make the argument that you shouldn't know they exist until you image them.  Until then, they are just lights in the sky.

You don’t need a space telescope to know that Venus or Jupiter’s moons exist. Even Pluto was discovered from the ground!
 

But I would still support limited access to detailed information like surface features until you launch a space telescope or, better yet, do an initial flyby. 
 

Normalise Grand Tours in KSP!

[chefsbrian]

11 hours ago, InterstellarDrifter said:

And, I think it's obvious that this community wants science to be more fun than - go here/there > click button > DONE! We want something more interactive/minigame like. I think this was the natural progression of KSP1 > KSP2, not this colonies thing. 

Yes and No - The community does want more involved science, but I can't possibly imagine minigames actually holding up. KSP is not a game about running science experiments, KSP is a game about building rockets and going places with them. Science was always a system aiming to add reason to go to specific and different places, via mechanical rewards that gave you new parts to build new rockets. Which is why colonies was the natural progression of things, as it provided more things to build, more places to build rockets, and more places to fly those rockets to and from as a result. Science was just a decent gameplay loop to drive that.

Any advancement of that system would have best been served by increasing the involvement in rocket design required to accommodate science. Which is a difficult ask with the foundations being on 'complete' piece lego building and all in one style designs. The only design and engineering challenge for most parts is "Do you have the Delta-V to move them into orbit", as there's no situation where you have to consider at all how its actually built onto the ship. You can slap a materials bay experiment under a nuclear reactor, have two NERVA's blasting out on either side of it, and get a perfect environmental sample result regardless of the surrounding ship. Design simply doesn't matter. But on the flip side, adding those constraints would lead to 'optimal' builds and discourage or prevent a lot of experimentation, which goes against the teams wider design goals. Long term experiments are fun on paper, but in practice most players just slap time accel and wait for it to finish, then carry on with the mission anyway, so the mechanic becomes a minor inconvenience at best. Transmission time at least is an engineering challenge, a check if you've got sufficient power generation and storage for the data volume.

Still, I understand how they failed to find a solution that worked, and fell back onto what they already had. What I don't understand is why it took them so long to figure that out, when the KSP1 modding scene had mostly figured that out by 2017 or so.

[Strawberry]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Did they remove celestial bodies from the Kerbolar system?  Because it should be absolutely required to telescope them before you go there.  

Id support telescopes for in solar system operation too yeah. You can design it to where it has interesting behavior for interstellar probe flybys (only capturing a few planets in high detail or something like that) to have it carry utility later on in the game