For Science! - My Thoughts (And Yours Too!)

[Scarecrow71]

So I spent about the last hour(ish) playing with a new campaign in For Science!, and overall I am stoked.  This is exactly what I was hoping KSP2 would start off as when EA dropped in February.  It has taken a bit to get to this point, but so far, I'm happy with what I've seen today.  In the first campaign, I completed 2 missions (launch first rocket to 10km, launch second rocket to 70km), and I unlocked a portion of the Tech Tree:

2 launches, and I think I'm capable of actually aiming for the Mun (without Mun Landing technology, interestingly enough).  I've got some thoughts and questions on what I've seen, though.

• Without doing a thing in the settings regarding wobbly rockets, things seem a bit more stable.  I don't know if autostrut is turned on by default (again, I didn't go into the settings at all), but I just got the feeling that things were more stable.  Like, I won't have to worry about the rocket turning into wet spaghetti at the most inopportune times.
• It seems that reaction wheels have been tuned to be more effective.  Having even a single one on the rocket I launched into LKO helped far more than having multiple large ones prior to the 0.2 update.  Might be that I combined them with the first small fins you get in the game, which I will have to eventually test out.  But gosh darned it all to heck does the rocket respond better.
• I'm a bit confused on the Science Jr. part.  At multiple times when I had it on the rocket, the little blue light came on to say "Hey, you can run Science here"...but I didn't have to run anything?  Seems it automatically just picks up whatever it can, which is both good and bad, I guess.  I'm in the camp where I liked clicking the button so I'd know what I was picking up.
• On this note, several times I got the message that certain experiments had to be run in EVA.  So I'd take Tanemone out of the capsule, right-click on him, and see the button to do a Surface Survey.  I'd click the button...and then get an error message that I'm not in the right location for that experiment to be performed.  On the launchpad, in the water, on the grass - same error message every time.  This might be a bug, perhaps?  Or is there some other information somewhere about when the different kinds of experiments can be run and under what circumstances?  Because without an explanation, this is just confusing.  I'm an old-hat player; imagine how this might be confusing to a new player who has never done this game before.
• When I fired up the new campaign, I had Cadet Orientation turned on because, you know, new features and all.  At one point in Mission Control, PAIGE indicated that we can track a Mission, and then get an overview of it at any time by clicking the Mission Briefing button.  Without telling us where said button is, which doesn't exist in Mission Control, by the way.  I found it on the app button tray in the VAB and in flight, but letting us know where it was might not be a bad idea?
• Love the overhaul of the KSC.  Looks much cleaner now than it did prior to 0.2.
• 35 science points for Struts?  Really?  Nothing like being overcharged for something.

With all this said, I like the update.  At least for now, things appear to be on track.  We'll see what happens when I try to land on the Mun!

Edited December 19, 2023 by Scarecrow71

[TROPtastic]

I liked @ShadowZone's video on the update. It seems like KSP2 will finally be in a place where it can be recommended to most KSP1 fans, provided that the new bugs and regressions are fixed. I'm looking forward to buying the game after a few more bug fixing patches come out.

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by TROPtastic

[ChrisShourai]

My brief experience so far has me also very confused about the "one-click" button for science. It flashes so briefly sometimes (I do get if I am orbiting quickly, then it will change situations quickly, but I wasn't), and when I click it, nothing happens. It doesn't auto do any science, and as a bug the window won't stay open. So I had to manually open the parts manager and navigate to the pod for a crew observation report as well as to the science part to run the experiment.

Truthfully it's a very confusing system that is barely explained in this update. I feel bad for new players because they will be even more confused.

Also, the science collection window is so unbearably bloated with numbers and text. It needs a severe simplification or a much better UI/UX implementation. It's almost like I have to squint between a bunch of random info I really don't need or is barely required for the current gameplay just to maybe glace at whether or not I even need to know what I'm reading. Maybe a button to simplify the window and another to change it to advanced? The first way is one-click science and transmission with a total overall "EC" use and "Transmit Time," and if someone wants to dive into the nitty gritty for every single experiment so far run, they can. Maybe I'm not understanding how all that jumbled data can help me collect and return science?

[jacksawild]

It's fun and is what should have been the first release. I think there are some mission issues, my first mun mission was to orbit mun but the briefing was describing an unmanned flyby. I also passed the Going Green mission without even having a Science Jr on board. Regardless, it seems playable as a game now which can only be good news.

[m4inbrain]

I'm very happy, i played more today than i did in total since the EA release. 

It's fun, but it's not perfect, and most of my gripes revolve around the UI. It's awful, imo. I've never been a big fan of the new (console focused?) UI, but the science window takes the cake. I'm now at the first moon mission, and i still don't 100% feel like i understand what's going on in the science window. 

It also took me a few tries to figure out how the collection actually worked, and i still don't understand it fully i don't think. Can i do unlimited experiments with one Science Jr without resetting, just spam the button? Do i need to press something after pressing the corresponding "collect science" button (like crew report), or does it instantly collect it even if it's worthless (due to having done it prior)?

It's not just that it doesn't get explained anywhere, which is already not great - it's also not self-explanatory.  It feels bloated to the point where i wonder why someone thought that it's necessary to add this much pointless "fluff information". We're playing a game where precision is rewarded (and required), why is the UI so unconcise? 

Really hoping that the devs/designers get a grip on that. The good thing is that after todays update, i get the impression that they actually might. 

The only other thing i dislike is the re-entry effect, i actually thought my game crashed for a second when i saw it first due to being basically non-animated at the core, it just looks like a glowing outline around the bottom of the heated part. There's a little animation where it flames out (the top bit), but basically nothing around the pod.

The good thing with that is, that's relatively easy to fix, as well as low priority. Doesn't break anything, just looks naff.

[chefsbrian]

1 hour ago, m4inbrain said:

The good thing is that after todays update, i get the impression that they actually might. 

With you there. The guts of the system seem fine - In so far as it appears to be working as intended. Its just missing a lot of QoL regarding how that's communicated and presented to the player. But that's polish that can come along.

1 hour ago, m4inbrain said:

The only other thing i dislike is the re-entry effect

Yup, I've said as much in the general thread, the effect sucks. But I'm also not really that worried about it, its just visual. Only reason I feel its worth mentioning at all is because of how much effort was put into hyping it up and showing how much work went into it, just for it to be pretty disappointing. I'm sure the art team will have plenty of time to refine it while systems level work is ongoing.

[Superfluous J]

Excited to read these as I download the update (4 gig download, 28 gig unpacked. Wow!).

I literally never had an issue with wobbliness, though I make rockets that would work in the real world so :shrug:

Okay. Off to the launchpad to get my own thoughts on this.

[Superluminaut]

It's playable as an early access game, but is not smooth enough for kids.

Many bugs, many quality of life issues.

Adds nothing to KSP1 in it's current iteration.

[Kimera Industries]

So far as I can see from several YouTuber's videos, the game looks much better, but I agree with the many who say that the reentry effects look too static. I think it should not just be the stereotypical red-n'-orange-flamey-stuff but also some purple and blue plasma, I have seen that in several renders and also in footage of a SpaceX fairing reentry.

Now that is what it should look like. If you watch the video you'll see that the KSP2 reentry FX does a pretty good job with the shape of the plume and stuff, it's just the textures and color that could use work. Also, it looked like there was some buggy stuff with parts randomly exploding from heat (and inflatable heatshields either being underpowered or Eve's atmosphere being overpowered.)

Wobbly rockets no longer being a thing is really awesome  and that's already a huge step forward. I think this update really does make the game, a game.

[mindseyemodels]

personally my ONLY gripes with the reentry effect is that it is entirely too transparent when looking at ships through it. like instead of seeing half the ship obscured, you hardly see the effect at all in front of your ship, even at extremely high speeds the fireball doesn't obscure the ship

[Kimera Industries]

2 minutes ago, mindseyemodels said:

personally my ONLY gripes with the reentry effect is that it is entirely too transparent when looking at ships through it. like instead of seeing half the ship obscured, you hardly see the effect at all in front of your ship, even at extremely high speeds the fireball doesn't obscure the ship

There is a delicate balance to strike with the transparency of the effects, because too much and it's a little less fun, but they've definetely overdone it with the transparency. These are all problems that will get fixed, I'm sure- this is only day 1, after all.

[Superfluous J]

After an hour of playing, I'm very happy with it. As expected, all I needed was a pointer in a direction and I'll happily go that way.

The missions seem nice, and the writing is good. I laughed several times.

I also laughed several times during flight, most notably when my parachute wouldn't stage OR deploy when I clicked "Deploy," and only deployed once I ENABLED IT (why would you have to enable it? The 3 prior flights didn't need to enable it) and then clicked "Deploy."

Of course, that happened about 100m above the water, which I hit at about 400m/s.

...and survived.

[Superfluous J]

5 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'm a bit confused on the Science Jr. part.  At multiple times when I had it on the rocket, the little blue light came on to say "Hey, you can run Science here"...but I didn't have to run anything?  Seems it automatically just picks up whatever it can, which is both good and bad, I guess.  I'm in the camp where I liked clicking the button so I'd know what I was picking up.

Huh. I don't know about a blue light (I am a perfect marriage of unobservant and steadfastly anti-tutorial) but I did have to manually "run" every science experiment I did.

I couldn't find a way to do so from anywhere but the Parts window, which is a bad way to do it. There should be a "all science on the craft" window. Cue someone telling me there is one.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

I’m happy.  Sure, there are a few bugs, and some polish, tuning, and nerfing needed, but overall, it’s laid any residual doubt that the game wouldn’t succeed to rest.  Things will only get better.

Has anybody else lobbed a probe onto a Kerbol escape trajectory yet?

Edited December 20, 2023 by Wheehaw Kerman

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, jacksawild said:

my first mun mission was to orbit mun but the briefing was describing an unmanned flyby.

Mine mentioned how big an antenna I needed for Jool. I was like

[Scarecrow71]

36 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Huh. I don't know about a blue light (I am a perfect marriage of unobservant and steadfastly anti-tutorial) but I did have to manually "run" every science experiment I did.

I couldn't find a way to do so from anywhere but the Parts window, which is a bad way to do it. There should be a "all science on the craft" window. Cue someone telling me there is one.

On the left side of the screen, above the navball.  When you can do science, a little light comes on.  Click that.

[Rutabaga22]

I love this. I could never get past the first like 5 minutes of science mode in ksp1 and this had me hooked for like 3 hours. It gives me a feeling of constant progress while having fun. It might be that I've just become more creative, but I'm hooked 100%. Performance has become playable (at lower graphic qualities) and it still looks beautiful. I can't wait to play more and create more nightmarish rockets.

[JeanRenaud]

Killed two Kerbals because i did not have a heat shield in low orbit. In KSP1 the MK1 was able to withstand a low orbit re-entry without a heat shield. Why does this changed ?  The fact that you have to research three levels deep of science to reach the "heat shield part" is quite surprising, since this is clearly required almost at the start of the campaign. Heat shield should be put inside the "Light Launchers" category, the same way it is put in the first category of the second page.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

41 minutes ago, JeanRenaud said:

Killed two Kerbals because i did not have a heat shield in low orbit. In KSP1 the MK1 was able to withstand a low orbit re-entry without a heat shield. Why does this changed ?  The fact that you have to research three levels deep of science to reach the "heat shield part" is quite surprising, since this is clearly required almost at the start of the campaign. Heat shield should be put inside the "Light Launchers" category, the same way it is put in the first category of the second page.

Jeb and Val died a thousand deaths from back when I was learning KSP.  

They LOVED the 'Revert to...' feature. 

[regex]

I couldn't stay away. Initial observations:

1. The missions give a ton of science and they don't autocomplete, I have to continually go to the mission control screen to do them. At least they'll complete if you accept them and then take control of a craft that can complete them in its current state. I've launched two or three rockets and have completed most of the tier 1 tech tree. Further play is needed, but the missions just might be "easy cheater mode".

2. As suspected the autostrut feature removes any and all engineering challenge. Oh well.

3. The TWR/delta-V display collapses to its initial state when I close the configuration screen. This is bad UX, it should remember my selection on the right-side bar with the little dots.

4. I tried making a "Saturn 1" kind of rocket from smaller parts and the delta-V calculator crapped itself on that stage. Apparently it doesn't like having a structural part central to a bunch of fuel tanks and engines around it. Plus the fuel calcs seem weirdly off and if you attach a small radial tank it'll give a completely different result. No fuel shown on that stage either.

5. The fonts are actually terrible. I've been trying to avoid that sort of language when addressing a dev team/community these days but I just can't with this UI, it needs a lot of work.

6. The clouds are beautiful and fluffy. I'll have to make a sandbox save and load up some of my old aircraft to check out the new terrain.

Edited December 20, 2023 by regex

[Superfluous J]

23 minutes ago, regex said:

1. The missions give a ton of science and they don't autocomplete, I have to continually go to the mission control screen to do them. At least they'll complete if you accept them and then take control of a craft that can complete them in its current state. I've launched two or three rockets and have completed most of the tier 1 tech tree. Further play is needed, but the missions just might be "easy cheater mode".

Three things I noticed about the missions:

1. You do NOT need to accept them. You can "track" them but you'll complete them no matter what (if you do what they want).
2. They will not look back in time. I splashed down on my first 2 launches, and then got a (side quest) contract to do a splashdown.
3. You DO need to turn them in, which I like because it means I can stipulate in a challenge "no turning in missions for extra science!" if I want to.

Sure it may be "easy cheater mode" (though I've not gone far enough in the game to know how many points they give relative to other things, and relative to the tech tree) but you by all means CAN ignore it.

26 minutes ago, regex said:

As suspected the autostrut feature removes any and all engineering challenge. Oh well.

My rockets worked the exact same as they did before the update: No appreciable wobbliness. *shrug*

[KincaidFrankMF]

As a side note, I strongly suspect it's possible to land on the Mun and return on your very first launch... Not having a part count limit reduces the difficulty a huge amount.

[regex]

36 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

1. You DO need to turn them in, which I like because it means I can stipulate in a challenge "no turning in missions for extra science!" if I want to.

I mean, just don't accept them in the first place... Seems like a couple extra clicks on either side. I could go for requiring an accept for missions with autocomplete, that would work, it just seems weird that I have to come back to get a debriefing about coffee makers.

[Superfluous J]

5 minutes ago, regex said:

just don't accept them in the first place... Seems like a couple extra clicks on either side

You don't get that choice.

43 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

You do NOT need to accept them. You can "track" them but you'll complete them no matter what (if you do what they want).

 

[regex]

2 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

You don't get that choice.

le sigh