The soul of KSP

[Vl3d]

I want to start by saying that I am very happy that KSP 2 is now in a better playable and enjoyable state. Mainly because we can progress the discussion on to what is important - talking about the actual game Intercept is building and delivering!
That being said, please do yourself a favor and watch this short original KSP 1 animation:

Spoiler

It's great, right? I think it has all the humor, energy, action and passion for science and technology that the original KSP had. You can also find this in the latest cinematic trailer:

Spoiler

Now ask yourself: if these two short KSP trailers / videos can capture the "spirit of KSP" so well, it means that the devs knew what the game was and what made it great 10 years ago and they still do, right?
Well then, be honest with yourself and think about it - do you feel the same way when playing KSP 2 as when watching these videos?

...

No?
It kind of feels like something is off, doesn't it?
It's like something is missing, but you can't put your finger on it.

Well.. let me tell you what it is: KSP 2 lacks the edge that made KSP 1 the greatest.

Yes, of course , we can argue about it - how important it is beyond the gameplay, what degree of tongue-in-cheek humor is OK for an E rated game, if this is something that makes or breaks the game. But it's my opinion that now, after the game is on a more solid technical foundation, is the best time to seriously start talking about the thing that can give it longevity and actually bring it up to the level of "KSP is the best game ever made".

This needs to be taken into account now - while the game is still in its infancy. KSP 2 seems like it has been designed by commission to only amplify your sense of "that feels good", to only stir up your sense of wonder and childish fun. But this is not what gave KSP 1 a soul.
It's all the little things:

• Jeb and Val being so "in your face", assertive and focused.
• Jazzy elevator music playing in the VAB.
• Kerbals having "courage" and "stupidity" as their main attributes.
• Wernher von Kerman
• Gene Kerman and his unforgettable "aha!"
• Utter destruction and the fear of death!
• The UI/UX that feels sharp, precise, pixel-perfect.
• Really punchy short description text.
• A lot of ironic cultural references.
• The Squad logo.
• A kerbal life meant something! I was terrified of killing or stranding a kerbal in KSP 1.. but in KSP 2 they are just lemmings, they mean nothing.

All the stuff that makes a kid and also an adult player lift an eyebrow, be surprised, giggle... have we really forgotten that humor needs an edge?

What do we get in KSP 2? Too much cute, not enough awkward.

• Diversity in how kerbals look, but without the weirdness.
• Some lore-related discoverables that look like toddler toys.
• Snacks, snacks, snacks, snacks, food, food mild jokes....
• Sagan tape disaster
• So much white light in the game that it burns my eyes.
• Kapibara references
• Keri Kerman being addicted to coffee
• A bug on a telescope
• Walls of placeholder text
• A lot of UI/UX design decisions that focus on making the game playable on consoles and controllers, but take away from the sharp and focused feeling of a game designed for mouse and keyboard
• PAIGE desperately trying to be helpful
• Some "Human Resource Machine" vibes but without the "AI taking over" vibes
• ..basically the most tongue-in-cheek humor is the fact that kerbals scratch their butts sometimes and there are images of kerbals getting motion sickness in the Training Center.

Is that all the edge this game is capable of? We need more botulism jokes!!!

Dev team, please be careful about the direction you are taking the game. While trying to please everyone, you risk forgetting to add soul to KSP 2.
You are focusing too much on making it a kids game and will, at some point in the future, face the dangers of playing it safe!

PS: I love the team, I love you @Just Jim. It's just constructive feedback.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Vl3d

[Periple]

Honestly, I think it’s just you riding on a hefty dose of nostalgia. 

More precisely, I strongly disagree with you on some of your KSP1 pros (e.g. “sharp, precise, pixel-perfect UI”), I think others just exist in your head (Val and Jeb being in your face, assertive, and focused, what does that even mean?), and most of the others were irrelevant to me (I have no recollection of any a-ha from Gene). Conversely, KSP2’s flavor isn’t any worse to me, just a bit different like you’d expect with a different team.

[Superfluous J]

50 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Well then, be honest with yourself and think about it - do you feel the same way when playing KSP 2 as when watching these videos?

Please be honest with YOURself. Do you feel the same way playing KSP 1 as when watching these videos?

You can't go back again. I wish we could. The only way to know if KSP2 would capture that magic for you that KSP1 did, is to erase all memory of KSP everything from your brain and have you stumble on some YouTuber playing KSP2 and saying "huh this looks like it might be fun I like NASA."

...and then passing out 46 hours later because you haven't eaten or slept.

Let's take your first list of things that make KSP 1... have a soul... whatever that means.

• Jeb and Val being so "in your face", assertive and focused.
  I don't understand this. Other than always jumping in the cockpit when I wanted to put someone else there (or heaven forbid leave it empty)
• Jazzy elevator music playing in the VAB.
  I did like that music, but I just got back from Minmus and HOLY COW THE MUSIC IS GREAT IN KSP2.
• Kerbals having "courage" and "stupidity" as their main attributes.
  If only they mattered for something.
• Wernher von Kerman
  I have no particular love for WvK. Kari has more personality.
• Gene Kerman and his unforgettable "aha!"
  I do like that. Seems that they could keep it and give it to someone else.
• Utter destruction and the fear of death!
  That is literally exactly the same in KSP2.
• The UI/UX that feels sharp, precise, pixel-perfect.
  You mean a hodgepodge of styles thrown together without a thought into design aesthetics?
• Really punchy short description text.
  ...except in missions.
• A lot of ironic cultural references.
  I've seen quite a few in KSP2.
• The Squad logo.
  A corporate logo gives a game soul? Well good thing KSP2 has several.
• A kerbal life meant something! I was terrified of killing or stranding a kerbal in KSP 1.. but in KSP 2 they are just lemmings, they mean nothing.
  That is 100% nostalgia. I cared about Kerbals in KSP1, for a year or so. I stopped caring long before KSP2 came out.

Now for your list of things that makes KSP2 a lesser game.

• Diversity in how kerbals look, but without the weirdness.
  I don't know what "weirdness" you're referring to but I love that they all look different.
• Some lore-related discoverables that look like toddler toys.
  You'll either like these or not. I've not made up my mind yet but so far (Minmus) I'm cool with them.
• Snacks, snacks, snacks, snacks, food, food mild jokes....
  I mean it's kinda their thing.
• Sagan tape disaster
  This may be a spoiler because I don't understand it.
• So much white light in the game that it burns my eyes.
  That phong on all the parts? I've considered reporting it as a bug.
• Kapibara references
  I've not seen any.
• Keri Kerman being addicted to coffee
  It makes her relatable. To me, at least
• A bug on a telescope
  In a transition picture... why is this such a bad thing?
• Walls of placeholder text
  In a 0.2 early access, barely out of alpha game. I mean come on.
• A lot of UI/UX design decisions that focus on making the game playable on consoles and controllers, but take away from the sharp and focused feeling of a game designed for mouse and keyboard
  I don't see that. Like KSP1, I cannot ever see KSP2 working on a console.
• PAIGE desperately trying to be helpful
  I disabled her and am happier for doing so.
• Some "Human Resource Machine" vibes but without the "AI taking over" vibes
  I think that's another video game? I've not played it.
• ..basically the most tongue-in-cheek humor is the fact that kerbals scratch their butts sometimes and there are images of kerbals getting motion sickness in the Training Center.
  I've not seen any butt scratching nor did I notice any pictures of kerbals getting sick. Are those any worse than cut scene images of them screaming?

I think, if you'd played KSP2 for the past decade and just tried KSP1, Kari's coffee obsession would be something that gave KSP2 soul, while Gene Kerman going "A Hah!" would be annoying.

[Vl3d]

4 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

why is this such a bad thing?

I am not pointing out "a bad thing" in KSP 2, I am pointing out that something is missing from the game compared to KSP 1.

Call it nostalgia all you want, but good comedy is timeless.

KSP 2 needs an edge.

[tstein]

Well given the amount of bugs they had to fix, is no wonder they had little time for  adding spice.

[Gargamel]

Nostalgia is just selective memory.    Forgetting all the rough ones makes it nice.    For those of us who were there in the beginning, it wasn’t so smooth sailing.    The graphics were weird, the atmosphere didn’t make sense, the physics were wonky, any time a new patch came out you lost your save, and countless other issues that were worked out over the course of a decade.    
 

While it isn’t an apples and oranges comparison, it’s definitely more like comparing an apple that has had generations of cultivation and alteration to make pretty good, and an under ripe apple that is only a couple generations in that has the potential, with the correct cultivation, to be a far superior fruit.   
 

Have patience.   

[Vl3d]

8 minutes ago, tstein said:

Well given the amount of bugs they had to fix, is no wonder they had little time for  adding spice.

I don't think creatives fix bugs. Besides, it's a strategic issue, not just a "this description is not funny" issue. I've got cute coming out of my ears and I'm puking rainbows after 115 hours of KSP 2. Which is kind of ironic, considering how hardcore Tiers 2+ of the tech tree are.

1 minute ago, Gargamel said:

While it isn’t an apples and oranges comparison, it’s definitely more like comparing an apple that has had generations of cultivation and alteration to make pretty good, and an under ripe apple that is only a couple generations in that has the potential, with the correct cultivation, to be a far superior fruit.  

Have patience.   

I think the game is coming along nicely. I just feel like it needs a little more "mu-ha-ha" and a little less "hi-hi-hi".

[Royalswissarmyknife]

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Gene Kerman and his unforgettable "aha!"

I miss Gene Kerman. 

[MARL_Mk1]

I agree completely

At the same time, I'm not worried since most of those will be back one way or another via mods

Edited December 21, 2023 by MARL_Mk1

[Vl3d]

3 minutes ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

I'm not worried since most of those will be back one way or another via mods

Yeah, hope someone makes a dark mod(e) for KSP 2.

Spoiler

And someone definitely needs to crank KARS humor setting up to 110%.

14 minutes ago, Royalswissarmyknife said:

I miss Gene Kerman. 

A classic.

[regex]

Eh, I'm glad to leave KSP1 behind, it's a decade old game that looked a decade old when it came out. What made it good was the novelty and the community, the game itself wasn't really much of unless you were getting inspired by other's builds while working around/through the bugs or checking out mods which all broke your save when a new version came out. I could do without the "edge" and awkward too, half of the time it felt like they were insulting my intelligence but then, I'm not one to really care for hype videos.

Even with the obvious UI/UX issues KSP2 feels more polished and inviting by comparison, and the default design isn't "hide all the information because that makes you learn better" (so many "forced" choices early on). The music is miles better too.

[MARL_Mk1]

5 minutes ago, regex said:

The music is miles better too.

Yes

but

Vl3d just created a need in me that I didn't know I had. Might learn to mod just to bring some classics back.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by MARL_Mk1

[regex]

2 minutes ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

Yes

but

Nah, don't miss it.

[Periple]

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

You can't go back again. I wish we could.

My first successful Mun return trip is probably my all time peak gaming moment. I don’t think I’ll ever get that kind of kick from KSP again, simply because I now know so much more than I did then. It’s not the game, it’s us — we have changed.

 But I do hope other people new to KSP will get those same highs from KSP2!

[Vl3d]

28 minutes ago, regex said:

Nah, don't miss it.

It's not about that specific song, it's about the comedic refinement. I feel like KSP 2 takes itself a little too seriously in it's mission to "show the wonder of science to kids". From a certain point it's just too much "cute cat ears on space suits"..
What KSP 1 did correctly was to balance out the cuteness of the little green men not only with realism (which KSP 2 also tries to do.. except maybe for EVE) but also with tongue-in-cheek humor.
Thus.. you are designing complex deep-space missions while listening to elevator music. This example is called juxtaposition - it's refined humor. You don't really find that in KSP 2 - creatives are often confusing humor with cuteness and seem to have often made catch-all decisions by committee related to what is considered "funny".

Real humor needs an edge, it needs courage - and that is the soul of KSP.

There are so many examples:

Spoiler

It was not the wobble of the rockets that made KSP special, it was the comedy of spending hours improvising with parts that look like they were found in the trash bin and designing a craft, saying "ok, I'm done, I'll try it like this" and then having it mess up your SAS and you stressing over controlling it on ascent because you built the damn thing too tall.

It's astronaut and engineer humor, dammit! How have we forgotten this? It's what NASA used to be in the Golden Years. That's the whole point of the kerbals!
https://www.space.com/best-space-pranks

Edited December 21, 2023 by Vl3d

[tstein]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

I don't think creatives fix bugs. Besides, it's a strategic issue, not just a "this description is not funny" issue. I've got cute coming out of my ears and I'm puking rainbows after 115 hours of KSP 2. Which is kind of ironic, considering how hardcore Tiers 2+ of the tech tree are.

I think the game is coming along nicely. I just feel like it needs a little more "mu-ha-ha" and a little less "hi-hi-hi".

 Not saying the same people fix both things, but the management focus tends to  create some tunnel vision  in the most urgent aspects, that in any project, not just this one.

[regex]

8 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

What KSP 1 did correctly

KSP1 is right over there. I'm here for a different vision of what the game can be. The great thing is that we can both get what we want.

[Periple]

11 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

It was not the wobble of the rockets that made KSP special, it was the comedy of spending hours improvising with parts that look like they were found in the trash bin and designing a craft, saying "ok, I'm done, I'll try it like this" and then having it mess up your SAS and you stressing over controlling it on ascent because you built the damn thing too tall.

I disliked the original junkyard aesthetic and was really happy when they took it in a new direction. I also used Restock for that reason. I liked courage and stupidity and the way they would just grin (or flail about in panic) when things were going wrong… and they still do that.

[Vl3d]

I submitted a humor-setting-level bug report. I hope it gets approved.

THE BAD





And if I read another snacks reference... I'm going to eat all of them!

THE GOOD

To be fair, I think this text for "A Perfect Circle" mission is very good:

And also this one is hilarious:

And these company marketing-hype summaries are great:





Love the botulism reference! Although the text for this last one could be a little shorter / better packed.

Other examples of good writing (objectively subjective):









Oh and I also love all the celestial body synopses. They're very good writing.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Vl3d

[Wheehaw Kerman]

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

I am not pointing out "a bad thing" in KSP 2, I am pointing out that something is missing from the game compared to KSP 1.

Call it nostalgia all you want, but good comedy is timeless.

KSP 2 needs an edge.

I think I’m with you on this in general if not in every detail.  Arguing over flavour of headcanon is a bit pointless, but I absolutely get what you’re driving at.  Some observations on a similar note:

I like Kari better than Wehrner.  War criminal references aside, “overcaffeinated overachiever” is incredibly Kerbal.  Making coffee Kerbal was inspired - on a par with snacks.  I’d like her better if she sounded old enough to not be a potential child labour law violation, though.  And I miss Gene.  Maybe if they stuck Kari in a white vest?

I haven’t turned P.A.I.G.E. off… yet.  I can sense it coming, though.

I’m going to be really annoyed if they turn Jeb into anything other than Literally Ed Baldwin From For All Mankind (or is Ed literally Jeb?  I’m not sure.  Also, in my headcanon Val is Literally Molly Cobb - one of my buddies think’s she’s more Ellen).  Jeb doesn’t argue with Legal or leave passive aggressive notes - he just puts himself in the pilot seat on every mission (just like Ed, but I digress).

Regardless of Kerbal equivalent of gender, shade of green, or whatever, the new Kerbals don’t have the same steely-eyed missile kerb vibe that the originals did.  They look more like cartoony little alien barista/aspiring reality show contestants than astronauts.  The originals had the Right Stuff - some of the new ones really don’t.  Kerbals should give off speeding to work in Korvettes while wearing sixties casual menswear vibes.  I will be going full on Angry Deke Slayton with Kerbonaut Candidates that don’t conform to my mental dress and deportment code as soon as the game lets me.

Overall, I think KSP2’s vibe gets a little too close to borderline Paw Patrol vibe and strays way too far from the early NASA vibe that I frankly loved.  This makes me sad, but not enough to get upset - I’m sure IG’s marketeers are tuning the game to appeal to a broad age spectrum, and that’ll be good for the game… I hope.

2 hours ago, Periple said:

My first successful Mun return trip is probably my all time peak gaming moment. I don’t think I’ll ever get that kind of kick from KSP again, simply because I now know so much more than I did then. It’s not the game, it’s us — we have changed.

 But I do hope other people new to KSP will get those same highs from KSP2!

Heck, my first successful Mün *landing* is mine: it took me long enough :).

[Dakitess]

I'm discovering so many things about KSP1 now that people are getting nostalgic about it ! I've never cared about Kerbals, nor the fictional parts companies, or their description, or the dialogs, or anything like this. I play KSP for 11 or 12 years, 99% sandbox, when we had nothing of this and I admit that I never got hooked but any of this, like, really not.

Now that I read it, I must say that I'm quite reluctant to "Humor, humor everywhere". Not everything needs to be funny, with a relief. It feels in KSP1 and KSP2 (guessing, I've only played it 4 hours in SandBox) it's a bit "ha, see, it's funny, yeah, like, 'splosions, snacks, and all ! and him, look at him, he's dumb ! haha !". I've never understand the whole Kapibara thing, like when it was all over the place, I found out quite cringy to be fair. I just might have missed the thing, it was probably funny if people enjoyed it so much x) Was that a reference to something external to KSP at first ?

Edited December 22, 2023 by Dakitess

[Vl3d]

3 hours ago, Dakitess said:

it's a bit "ha, see, it's funny, yeah, like, 'splosions, snacks, and all ! and him, look at him, he's dumb ! haha !". I've never understand the whole Kapibara thing

It's really not a nostalgia or inter-generational KSP  1 vs. KSP 2 thing. It's just shallow vs. deep interpretation of kerbal culture.
Deep is knowing the actual reason why the snacks jokes started:

Spoiler

There's a real danger that the thing (KSP 2) can start to resemble a caricature of the original (KSP 1). Instead of really smart and punchy engineer / astronaut humor, you get shallow interpretations like "aw cute little green people with cat ears on space suits, snacks everywhere, planty a flagy and scratchy his butty" etc.

That's why I am really, really, really looking at the OG Squad team and the veteran KSP 1 players at Intercept to keep the quality bar as high as possible for the humor and spirit of KSP 2. The whole kerbal lore was built on "the smart peculiarities" of the game. It would be a real shame to lose that because some people think "kerbal" only means "cute and friendly".

KSP 2 needs an edge.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

Two of the top 3 KSP Reddit posts for 2023:

I LOL'ed.

[Vl3d]

Me and the crew wishing you a Happy New Year!

[modus]

Yeah that's my face right now (4 am)

Spoiler

And drunk