The soul of KSP

[Pthigrivi]

Honestly the general tone is really pretty great. This is the least of my concern.  The flavor text is great, the mission briefs are cute if maybe a little belabored, but then Im old and ruthless. Im less convinced by the ancient aliens overstory thats happening with the artifacts. Again its cute but its not my thing. I appreciate that many of the newer discoverables are slightly more hard-boiled and Id love to see science dig deeper into that. 

[Vl3d]

7 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Again its cute but its not my thing.

Exactly my point.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

17 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Honestly the general tone is really pretty great. This is the least of my concern.  The flavor text is great, the mission briefs are cute if maybe a little belabored, but then Im old and ruthless. Im less convinced by the ancient aliens overstory thats happening with the artifacts. Again its cute but its not my thing. I appreciate that many of the newer discoverables are slightly more hard-boiled and Id love to see science dig deeper into that. 

I thought I would be a lot angrier about the ancient aliens [lengthy string of expletives deleted].  It’s an old stale lazy trope that usually makes for bad SF unless really well done, but after the first three monuments (and a heroic long range brief glimpse of the Tylo monument by Whatsername Kerman who is definitely getting her crater named after her) I think I hold my nose and not complain too much.  I mean, Kerbals explore because it’s there but some humans might need something more…

[Pthigrivi]

46 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

I thought I would be a lot angrier about the ancient aliens [lengthy string of expletives deleted].  It’s an old stale lazy trope that usually makes for bad SF unless really well done, but after the first three monuments (and a heroic long range brief glimpse of the Tylo monument by Whatsername Kerman who is definitely getting her crater named after her) I think I hold my nose and not complain too much.  I mean, Kerbals explore because it’s there but some humans might need something more…

Thats my feeling. I like cute things but real science has a different bent and tone. It took a while for me to teach tiktok that I like astrophysics and rocketry and cosmology but not dumb UFO jank. Im keeping my mind open and considering this is one for the kids. I am decrepitly  old at this point after all. 

[Superfluous J]

56 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Whatsername Kerman who is definitely getting her crater named after her

We need a sentence of the month thread.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

9 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Thats my feeling. I like cute things but real science has a different bent and tone. It took a while for me to teach tiktok that I like astrophysics and rocketry and cosmology but not dumb UFO jank. Im keeping my mind open and considering this is one for the kids. I am decrepitly  old at this point after all. 

We’re re basically old men yelling at clouds in a children’s game, yes :).  But there is a bit of a difference between putting stale overused bad SF tropes in a game for discerning adults and exposing kids to the stuff…. I console myself with the fact that I was obsessed with UFOs and the Bermuda Triangle as a small kid, but on the gripping hand some people still believe in that stuff as adults, and have the vote.

9 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

We need a sentence of the month thread.

The plaque should read “she came in short and really hot, but never dropped the mic”.

[Vl3d]

5 hours ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

We’re re basically old men yelling at clouds in a children’s game, yes :).  But there is a bit of a difference between putting stale overused bad SF tropes in a game for discerning adults and exposing kids to the stuff…. I console myself with the fact that I was obsessed with UFOs and the Bermuda Triangle as a small kid, but on the gripping hand some people still believe in that stuff as adults, and have the vote.

And what, KSP is more accessible because it looks like a game for 6 year olds? Nonetheless, I have no issues with it. What I am pointing out its that there should also be that meta humor level which adults understand and find amusing. You know, like the Disney movies of old. Make it timeless!

[Bej Kerman]

27 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

What I am pointing out its that there should also be that meta humor level which adults understand and find amusing.

(I find the current style quite adequate and appropriate)

[Vl3d]

7 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

(I find the current style quite adequate and appropriate)

Which proves you have not read any of my posts in this thread.

[regex]

11 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Which proves you have not read any of my posts in this thread.

Some of us just disagree with this entire thread after reading it.

[Vl3d]

1 minute ago, regex said:

Some of us just disagree with this entire thread after reading it.

Disagree with specific arguments and bring counter arguments please.

[regex]

4 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Disagree with specific arguments and bring counter arguments please.

No. I like what Intercept is doing and I certainly don't need to engage your arguments because they're purely opinion.

[Bej Kerman]

3 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Which proves you have not read any of my posts in this thread.

Okay, then let me address the core of your post.

On 12/21/2023 at 12:12 PM, Vl3d said:

• #1 Jeb and Val being so "in your face", assertive and focused.
• #2 Jazzy elevator music playing in the VAB.
• #3 Kerbals having "courage" and "stupidity" as their main attributes.
• #4 Wernher von Kerman
• #5 Gene Kerman and his unforgettable "aha!"
• #6 Utter destruction and the fear of death!
• #7 The UI/UX that feels sharp, precise, pixel-perfect.
• #8 Really punchy short description text.
• #9 A lot of ironic cultural references.
• #10 The Squad logo.
• #11 A kerbal life meant something! I was terrified of killing or stranding a kerbal in KSP 1.. but in KSP 2 they are just lemmings, they mean nothing.

[Quoter's node, labelled numerically for my own convenience]

#1, if you imagined Jeb and Val being so "in your face", then that was entirely your imagination as in-game they've got all the character of a cardboard box - unless you count part descriptions, in which case Val is non-existent to my knowledge and Jeb is implied to do business stuff in their free time.

#2, the new VAB music is good and appropriate so I don't think it matters much that KSP 1 used what few appropriate royalty-free music tracks Squad could find.

#3, it's an interesting idea, but depending on who you ask it's more fun to imply these from how your kerbals react to scary things than vice-versa.

#4, whoopdedoo.

#5, another whoopdedoo with little impact on the game itself.

#6, This means literally nothing until you define "utter destruction and the fear of death" and elaborate on why you think this is absent from KSP 2, a game that also makes a big deal out of aeronautical trial-and-error through its marketing and in-game flavour text.

#7, I'll concede that KSP 2's UI style is suboptimal.

#8, Look at the top right corner of the parts list. That's where the part descriptions went. They're not gone.

#9, Feel free to provide examples

#10, where to begin... this is like giving Disney's Wish an extra 2/10 because they're using a new flashy logo. A logo that was mostly done by ILM, not Disney themselves. A logo that shows before the audience gets to see any of the work done on the actual movie itself. No, I am not giving KSP brownie points for a daft old logo, and I say that as someone passionate about motion graphics and graphic design.

#11, Again, like #1, this is entirely your imagination because there's no difference.

[KSK]

To me, the soul of KSP1 was three kerbals (probably but not necessarily drawn from Jeb, Bill, Bob, and Val) in a capsule orbiting the Mun, with ear to ear grins on their faces. To a lesser extent, it was also about the 'parts found by the side of the road' attitude, which always gave me an early rocketry club vibe. Basically,  imagine the British Interplanetary Society and their Soviet or German counterparts, but with the actual resources to put their ideas into practice.

Small green aliens heading into the unknown for no better reason than it seemed like a fun thing to do.

The actual 'parts by the side of the road' meme though, got rather overdone in my opinion, as did the junkyard aesthetic.  Aesthetically, I imagined early Kerbal technology as being similar to early Soviet technology. Rugged, not too pretty, but by thunder it got the job done. If you're curious, go do a web search for the "Cosmonauts: Birth of the Space Age" exhibition at the London Science Museum, and check out some of those images, particularly of the early Soviet satellites. I'm quite positive that they weren't cobbled together from whatever the Soviets had lying around, but they sure do look like they could have been.

I found the KSP humour and 'dumb kerbals' memes to be mostly ignorable at best or actively irritating at worst. The short descriptions veered all over the place from 'played straight' to 'humour that didn't quite land' to 'WTAF'. I'm talking about sensors powered by black magic and fuel tanks that were allegedly even more adorable than their larger counterparts and should be handled stoically and with care.

I haven't played KSP2 so I don't know what its overall vibe is, but there's an awful lot of memetic fandom baggage from KSP1 that I wouldn't miss in the slightest.

[Periple]

9 minutes ago, KSK said:

I haven't played KSP2 so I don't know what its overall vibe is, but there's an awful lot of memetic fandom baggage from KSP1 that I wouldn't miss in the slightest.

Same! I really don’t see what Vl3d and some others are seeing when they’re talking about “The Right Stuff” or adult humor or steely-eyed Jeb. I think that’s really mostly in their imagination rather than anything that’s actually in the game. 

The mission and part descriptions are just goofy or silly and sometimes pretty bad, and IMO KSP2 does an overall better job with them. I especially like the animations and expressions, they were the most important flavor in KSP1 and the sequel has the same feel but does them better.

[cocoscacao]

18 minutes ago, Periple said:

KSP2 does an overall better job

I just don't like real world references. Such as Newton...

I would also ditch the original 4 crew. Jeb, Val... But that would probably cause armed riots, so I understand why they did it...

Edited January 3 by cocoscacao

[Periple]

2 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

I just don't like real world references. Such as Newton...

KSP1 was full of those though, although most were thinly veiled. WvK, Valentina, Stayputnik… If you have tutorials it’s really hard to avoid talking about Newton’s laws of mechanics and I think it would be a mistake and super confusing to try!

[cocoscacao]

1 minute ago, Periple said:

KSP1 was full of those though, although most were thinly veiled.

Thin veil is fine. Openly addressing Newton's laws is fine. Naming a character Newton however...

[Periple]

1 minute ago, cocoscacao said:

Thin veil is fine. Openly addressing Newton's laws is fine. Naming a character Newton however...

Is this any different than naming a character Wernher von or Valentina?

[cocoscacao]

1 minute ago, Periple said:

Is this any different than naming a character Wernher von or Valentina?

Yes... Play on words is far more creative for me. I've edited the original reply. I don't like the fact that the original 4 crew exists.

[RayneCloud]

As someone who was there in the earlier days of KSP1 alongside the talented and wonderful people that built KSP 1 and started this franchise,  I always find these types of posts kind of funny. 

Edited January 3 by RayneCloud

[RayneCloud]

Actually, when I think of the "Soul" of KSP I think of this video by @Entropian,

Imagination. Exploration. Creativity. Community. These things are all parts of the "Soul" of Kerbal Space Program, to me, personally anyway. We look up to the stars and dream, and we ask that big question, "What's out there?" and KSP... gave us a small taste of the dream of answering that big question. 

[Vl3d]

2 hours ago, KSK said:

haven't played KSP2 so I don't know what its overall vibe

Play it for a few dozen hours and you will see it's presented as a game that fathers would play with their 6 year old children to get them into science and space. That's a great thing!

The problem is that a lot of the writing is also for 6 year olds and the game insists on only triggering addictive dopamine hits with "cute silly feel good vibes" without also having enough grounded astronaut humor edge and spice.

This comes from a new interpretation of what kerbal means - for Squad they were little green animated courageous and sometimes stupid crash-puppets that you put on actual rockets and shoot them up into the unknown... for Intercept they're cute and silly diverse green aliens with emotions and helpful personalities.

Squad kerbals talked back and had scientist and astronaut tongue-in-cheek jokes.. Intercept kerbals just want to be your friends and be happy.

But that's just my opinion. At least for me there's an obvious difference. KSP 2 lacks that "je me sais quoi" that gave the first game so much "chaotic good" charm.

36 minutes ago, RayneCloud said:

Actually, when I think of the "Soul" of KSP I think of this video by @Entropian,

Imagination. Exploration. Creativity. Community. These things are all parts of the "Soul" of Kerbal Space Program, to me, personally anyway. We look up to the stars and dream, and we ask that big question, "What's out there?" and KSP... gave us a small taste of the dream of answering that big question. 

That's not stock KSP, that's a totally different game akin to RO and Interstellar Extended. Different gameplay, different focus, different vibe.

Edited January 3 by Vl3d

[RayneCloud]

8 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Play it for a few dozen hours and you will see it's presented as a game that fathers would play with their 6 year old children to get them into science and space. That's a great thing!

The problem is that a lot of the writing is also for 6 year olds and the game insists on only triggering addictive dopamine hits with "cute silly feel good vibes" without also having enough grounded astronaut humor edge and spice.

This comes from a new interpretation of what kerbal means - for Squad they were little green animated courageous and sometimes stupid crash-puppets that you put on actual rockets and shoot them up into the unknown... for Intercept they're cute and silly diverse green aliens with emotions and helpful personalities.

Squad kerbals talked back and had scientist and astronaut tongue-in-cheek jokes.. Intercept kerbals just want to be your friends and be happy.

But that's just my opinion. At least for me there's an obvious difference. KSP 2 lacks that "je me sais quoi" that gave the first game so much "chaotic good" charm.

That's not stock KSP, that's a totally different game akin to RO and Interstellar Extended. Different gameplay, different focus, different vibe.

You say that like, 
1. I don't know that vid is modded, of course I do. So what?
2. It some how just invalidates my statement about the game being about exploration, community, creativity, and imagination. It doesn't.
3. It somehow means that stock KSP 1 never had any of this "vibe" and that's just not even remotely accurate.

[Vl3d]

5 minutes ago, RayneCloud said:

You say that like, 
1. I don't know that vid is modded, of course I do. So what?
2. It some how just invalidates my statement about the game being about exploration, community, creativity, and imagination. It doesn't.
3. It somehow means that stock KSP 1 never had any of this "vibe" and that's just not even remotely accurate.

I agree, that's something I also like very much about modded KSP and it's part of it's DNA. I feel like that part is preserved in KSP 2.