What happened to increased communication?

[MechBFP]

52 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

And the proper codebase to support them rather than self-destroying after a couple thousand parts like KSP2 does and will do for the foreseeable future. After all, isn't "bad foundation" one of the complaints for KSP1? Then why'd KSP2 get a pass being made in the same engine and including a timebomb as big as their current unloaded vessel simulation and save serialization are?

Oh right, because "wahh KSP1 was bad" is not an argument, it's a cope, and a double standard when KSP2 is part of the conversation.

 

 

 

The only people giving it a pass are the people you have made up in your mind. No one is going to give it a pass if the game leaves Early Access like that.

Edited April 24 by MechBFP

[NexusHelium]

2 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Oh right, because "wahh KSP1 was bad" is not an argument, it's a cope, and a double standard when KSP2 is part of the conversation.

KSP 1 was not bad, and no one I have ever met or seen has ever said that it was bad to justify KSP 2.

In my opinion, KSP had a far less enjoyable experience in a lot of areas compared to the sequel but that's my opinion. It's not an argument.

The only argument that involves KSP that I have seen was one that I personally agree with as well. And that is the fact that KSP during early access was bad, or at least not the greatest. And if one guy joined by a team of people could create one of the best games of all time in ten years, then KSP 2 can undoubtedly achieve the same or even more in the same amount of time. And they are on a fantastic track to do so, so saying the first game is bad is not a cope, it's not even really an argument.

It's just not true, and basically everyone that enjoyed the first game stands by that fact. Some people, including me, just look back on the first one's history and know that the sequel still has some time and deserves more than to be abandoned or looked at in disgust. But that's not fact. I cannot confirm the game's future, but that is the argument I uphold and stand by the strongest in regards to this game.

Edited April 24 by NexusHelium

[NexusHelium]

13 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Then every month.  Then once during a month.  It has already been 6 weeks since the last one.

Also... first of all: Every month and once during a month are basically the same things.

And second: Just wait for them to release the next KERB and I am positive that they will begin to uphold that promise.  They made this decision for a reason and it wasn't a bad one. So, until the next KERB release, please just be patient and trust the process for a little more.

Don't judge or criticize something before it even happens.

Edited April 24 by NexusHelium

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, NexusHelium said:

Also... first of all: Every month and once during a month are basically the same things.

And second: Just wait for them to release the next KERB and I am positive that they will begin to uphold that promise.  They made this decision for a reason and it wasn't a bad one. So, until the next KERB release, please just be patient and trust the process for a little more.

Don't judge or criticize something before it even happens.

Before it even happens?  Where have you been for the last 15 months?  Heck, for the last 6 years?  They can't hit any of the promises or timelines they have given us.  Why should we expect this to be any different?

And you basically proved my point.  We got promised bi-weekly and it didn't happen.  We got promised monthly, and they are already late.  Hard to wait for something to happen when they've proven it won't.

[NexusHelium]

41 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Before it even happens?  Where have you been for the last 15 months?  Heck, for the last 6 years?  They can't hit any of the promises or timelines they have given us.  Why should we expect this to be any different?

And you basically proved my point.  We got promised bi-weekly and it didn't happen.  We got promised monthly, and they are already late.  Hard to wait for something to happen when they've proven it won't.

They can and do hit they're promises. Science? Patches? All of that was released on time.

Don't get me wrong they sometimes don't and it's really frustrating at times, but you cant say they "can't hit any of the promises" because that is objectively not true. It's not never, and it never will be never.

And when I said before it happens I mean before the next KERB happens. Which has not happened yet. And it's hard to judge a promise before they've been given a chance to uphold it. You can't possibly say that they've proven it won't happen when it hasn't yet. And if you don't give them time then it will in fact seem like it won't happen, but that's just not true. They haven't started the monthly KERBs yet and when they do they will uphold that promise to the best of their ability.

I have not proved anything. I have presented my side and that is all.

Edited April 24 by NexusHelium

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I think it's becoming more and more apparent the sentiment of various members of the community and developement team. This seems to be a direct result of selective disassociation. 

We have been told on a couple occasions that this should be the *Official* channel of communication.  The mere volume of discord messages precludes permanence.

In theory, discord messages are permanent and the threading system is attempting to transition into a more official form of game communication, but it still feels very transitory.

However,that is the medium that receives the most attention from those chosen to interact with the community. The reason seem (to me) because there is still an overwhelmingly positive scope to what is being discussed on the various discord platforms.

On the official Intercept discord there is very little outspoken negativity. Those using this medium have attributed this to their more discerning amd refined nature. Civilized and all.

They are adults, we are children. Those that are outspoken are *labeled* as haters & worse. Conversations bashing those voicing negativity on reddit / this forum can be found with Dakota actively trying to prevent that form of toxicity from becoming normalized (TY Dakota).

If you mention something negative on discord, be careful of wording. It is there... much as it was here when there were more people without any KSP1 experience.

There is clearly a split between old school / n3w skool thinking. If you scroll through the various means of communication, there is an inverse relationship between negative feedback / communication. Watch the CM posts dwindle with complaints about bugs / kerb reports increase.

I understand the desire to distance yourself from blast of negativity.

By and large that has taken the form of game / development criticism. That is the nature of EA.

It's so frustrating that discord commitments for *talking* to the community are so far greater than this forum that predates the existence of discord

The frustration is primarily being directed at the studio.. parallels are ONLY being drawn to ST & Uber because of this very behavior.

But, Let's continue to keep the tone civil as we fight to make your points heard. 

 

PS

For Science was not a hit for me. I expected a more career-esque feel. Exploration is supposed to replace career & science offering a mergin of the two. Without the procedural mission approach I would never have bought this game.

Hands down that's what I enjoy and for years they alluded to taking what people liked about the various *modes* of KSP1 + mods and running with it.

Saying explorations is career anything was disingenuous.

Edited April 24 by Fizzlebop Smith

[cocoscacao]

49 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

They can and do hit they're promises. Science? Patches? All of that was released on time.

When the time was finally announced, then yes. The problem is that development speed predictions were constantly wrong. I don't expect exact date, but at least pick some sane timeframe and stick to it. If that isn't possible, because the work is too much intertwined, at least keep the community informed about what's going on. Thus, we arrived to the title of this thread... 

Edited April 24 by cocoscacao

[NexusHelium]

20 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

I think it's becoming more and more apparent the sentiment of various members of the community and developement team. This seems to be a direct result of selective disassociation. 

We have been told on a couple occasions that this should be the *Official* channel of communication.  The mere volume of discord messages precludes permanence.

In theory, discord messages are permanent and the threading system is attempting to transition into a more official form of game communication, but it still feels very transitory.

However,that is the medium that receives the most attention from those chosen to interact with the community. The reason seem (to me) because there is still an overwhelmingly positive scope to what is being discussed on the various discord platforms.

On the official Intercept discord there is very little outspoken negativity. Those using this medium have attributed this to their more discerning amd refined nature. Civilized and all.

They are adults, we are children. Those that are outspoken are *labeled* as haters & worse. Conversations bashing those voicing negativity on reddit / this forum can be found with Dakota actively trying to prevent that form of toxicity from becoming normalized (TY Dakota).

If you mention something negative on discord, be careful of wording. It is there... much as it was here when there were more people without any KSP1 experience.

There is clearly a split between old school / n3w skool thinking. If you scroll through the various means of communication, there is an inverse relationship between negative feedback / communication. Watch the CM posts dwindle with complaints about bugs / kerb reports increase.

I understand the desire to distance yourself from blast of negativity.

By and large that has taken the form of game / development criticism. That is the nature of EA.

It's so frustrating that discord commitments for *talking* to the community are so far greater than this forum that predates the existence of discord

The frustration is primarily being directed at the studio.. parallels are ONLY being drawn to ST & Uber because of this very behavior.

But, Let's continue to keep the tone civil as we fight to make your points heard. 

I don't reeeallllyyy agree with the fact that discord is being used more cause it's positive. I think that it's honestly just a lot more easy and convenient for a lot of people than the forums but I can totally see that people including the devs and myself are spending more time on it cause it's more positive.

Everything else I can more or less agree with. It is a wee bit frustrating when news doesn't make it here to the forums but I use both so it doesn't really effect me. I completely agree to keep everything civil though. The forums could use a but of that lol.

Overall, there's some great points you raised

8 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

but at least pick some sane timeframe and stick to it. If that isn't possible, because the work is too much intertwined, at least keep the community informed about what's going on. Thus, we arrived to the title of this thread...

Less than 10 months is the current prediction for colonies. Is that sane enough ?

And yeah. That's been my key frustration with communication. Hasn't really been enough to write a bunch about how much I hate the game and the lack of communication (cause I don't ) though.

I don't really care about leeks or news but I would love a quick paragraph long summary every once in a while, whether it just be a recap or some form of apology on why something may be delayed and the reasoning behind it, even if I or anyone else doesn't agree with that reasoning.

Edited April 24 by NexusHelium

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I'm just Sad.

I know people say touch grass & feces. I do. 

I wish I hadn't become as emotionally attached to KSP as I have. The same way some people gravitate to certain music when life sucks.

I was overwhelmingly hopeful for this game but the more I read the more it appears to be going in completely different directions.

I think this is the root of why we see so little content of worth. They fear *even more* negativity. Someone somewhere knows the community is split .. by review metrics, reddit, steam, here...

Alot of sadness & anger. I think they KNOW any real communication about specific features has a chance of upsetting at minimum 47% (or whatever) of the community.

I don't know if that's the case.. it just feels that way to me. I wish I could just smile and be hopeful that the game will end up in some state I will love.

I know modders will make thay happen .. eventually. That it the day I truly await.

[cocoscacao]

25 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

Less than 10 months is the current prediction for colonies. Is that sane enough ?

Is it? There are 5 roadmap steps, so we're talking ~4 years of additional development. Does it really take a decade to make a game these days? If there were some shambles during covid, speaking openly about it should theoretically get a positive feedback. 

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, NexusHelium said:

They can and do hit they're promises.

We promise the game will drop in 2020.  Oh, sorry, we meant 2021.  Oh, darn it all, we have to delay again.

Hey, we're gonna drop patches every 6-8 weeks.  Oh, you mean we're already at 3 months with no word of when we'll deliver?

Hey, you'll get a KERB every 2 weeks.  Oh, we meant every month.  On second thought, how about once in a given month.  Well, Mike has to update his internal calendar, so we'll start whenever he finishes that even though it's been 6 weeks since the last one dropped.

We're going to do AMA's every month.  Oh, well, we meant every once in a while.  Hang on, we'll just scrap those without telling you.

We aren't going to make science just a rehash of what we had in KSP1.  Oh, what we meant was that we are going to take exactly what science was in KSP1 and just dumb it down.

 

That enough promises for you that they've made and broken?  Or do none of those count?

1 hour ago, NexusHelium said:

And when I said before it happens I mean before the next KERB happens. Which has not happened yet. And it's hard to judge a promise before they've been given a chance to uphold it.

Are you just simply ignoring everything about the KERB?  They promised every 2 weeks.  Then when they couldn't hit that, they changed their minds and promised every month.  Then when a month went by and they were asked about it, they changed their minds again and said Mike had to update his internal calendar, and that they truly meant once in a given month.  It's now been 6 weeks, and we have no word on what the heck is going on or when we'll get the next one.  So no, they honestly haven't upheld the promises they've made about the communication they insisted they were going to give us.

And on this topic, let's also not forget that after the initially promised every 2 weeks, they still failed to hit that target.  Go check Discord and you'll see a bunch of instances where they said "No KERB Friday; delayed until Monday".

1 hour ago, NexusHelium said:

And if you don't give them time then it will in fact seem like it won't happen, but that's just not true. They haven't started the monthly KERBs yet and when they do they will uphold that promise to the best of their ability.

And how much time are we supposed to give them beyond the 6 years we've taken to get to this point?  How long after them telling us "Monthly" are we supposed to wait until we say "You know, it's been x months and we still haven't gotten one"?  Why on earth do you want to give these guys a free pass for not giving us the communication they promised they would?  It's the same story over and over:  they promise us more communication, they give us less, we ask about it, rinse and repeat.  If you can't see that, then nothing I say will change your mind.

1 hour ago, NexusHelium said:

I have not proved anything. I have presented my side and that is all.

The side you've presented is one of ignoring facts.  Nothing I've said is untrue; you simply need only look throughout the forums to see everything I've stated.

Edited April 24 by Scarecrow71

[Spicat]

7 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

If there were some shambles during covid, speaking openly about it should theoretically get a positive feedback. 

More than covid, there was the studio change, which might have "shamble" things, and that's probably an euphemism. Only 50% of people made it through and I believe little to no engineers made the change.

[cocoscacao]

4 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Only 50% of people made it through and I believe little to no engineers made the change.

Then yeah, EA state makes sense. Understanding and continuing development the code of other people is a lot harder than writing it yourself from scratch... In most cases. 

[NexusHelium]

37 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Why on earth do you want to give these guys a free pass for not giving us the communication they promised they would?

Never said I did. I'm just waiting to see whether they fulfill they're promise. I'm not giving them a free pass but I'm trying to be more patient. You don't have to give them time but I will.

37 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Hang on, we'll just scrap those without telling you.

If they didn't tell us then how do you know that they are scrapped?

37 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It's now been 6 weeks, and we have no word on what the heck is going on or when we'll get the next one. 

News this week.

37 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The side you've presented is one of ignoring facts.  Nothing I've said is untrue; you simply need only look throughout the forums to see everything I've stated.

And nothing I have said is untrue either. I am not ignoring facts. I am simply seeing the facts at a different angle and presenting them in a different way that isn't so pessimistic. The issue in my opinion is that everyone thinks that their angle is the right one and that any other thing is some delusion based on  untrue thoughts or facts. And that's not just true in the KSP community. It's true in a lot of different places. But everyone has their own opinion and a different way to look at what is presented to us. There are no wrong outlooks.

37 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

If you can't see that, then nothing I say will change your mind.

I see what you are saying and I do not personally agree. There is nothing really to "see". Everything and anything that we all say are just opinions and outlooks based on past occurrences. If you personally know the inner workings of Intercept and can give me conclusive proof that we definitely will never get better communication or a more stable game then I will completely back track on everything I have ever said defending the game.

Edited April 24 by NexusHelium

[Icegrx]

Two more days till we get some information… fingers crossed 

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, Icegrx said:

Two more days till we get some information… fingers crossed 

Technically, we were told we'd get information some time this week.  It is just disheartening that they always mean "late Friday right before we close shop for the weekend so we don't have to answer any questions about the lack of information we give".

[NexusHelium]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

.  It is just disheartening that they always mean "late Friday right before we close shop for the weekend so we don't have to answer any questions about the lack of information we give".

Ayo how dare you disrespect Tom  

[PDCWolf]

8 hours ago, NexusHelium said:

KSP 1 was not bad, and no one I have ever met or seen has ever said that it was bad to justify KSP 2.

In my opinion, KSP had a far less enjoyable experience in a lot of areas compared to the sequel but that's my opinion. It's not an argument.

The only argument that involves KSP that I have seen was one that I personally agree with as well. And that is the fact that KSP during early access was bad, or at least not the greatest. And if one guy joined by a team of people could create one of the best games of all time in ten years, then KSP 2 can undoubtedly achieve the same or even more in the same amount of time. And they are on a fantastic track to do so, so saying the first game is bad is not a cope, it's not even really an argument.

It's just not true, and basically everyone that enjoyed the first game stands by that fact. Some people, including me, just look back on the first one's history and know that the sequel still has some time and deserves more than to be abandoned or looked at in disgust. But that's not fact. I cannot confirm the game's future, but that is the argument I uphold and stand by the strongest in regards to this game.

Well, then you aren't looking enough. Sure, those people don't post a lot anymore save for... one or two, but god if I didn't had to read people absolutely unloading on KSP1 to somehow justify the existence of KSP2 and how whatever we have now is better and provides a better foundation (even though it literally doesn't).

9 hours ago, MechBFP said:

The only people giving it a pass are the people you have made up in your mind. No one is going to give it a pass if the game leaves Early Access like that.

I wish I hadn't read the literal opposite at least once.

[Kerbart]

10 hours ago, NexusHelium said:

KSP 1 was not bad, and no one I have ever met or seen has ever said that it was bad to justify KSP 2.

In my opinion, KSP had a far less enjoyable experience in a lot of areas compared to the sequel but that's my opinion. It's not an argument.

[...] the sequel still has some time and deserves more than to be abandoned or looked at in disgust. But that's not fact. I cannot confirm the game's future, but that is the argument I uphold and stand by the strongest in regards to this game.

Yes, but KSP1 wasn't a sequel. It pretty much started as an "let's see where we can take this" experiment. Bad design decisions are part of that journey. What sours KSP2 is (a) all the bugs that we don't have in KSP1 - delta V bugs, staging bugs, landed status bugs, eva kerbals exerting forces bugs, and (b) simple features we've come to expect like eva parachutes, flags visible in map mode, different markers for different craft types,.

So while KSP2 is under development, those bugs do annoy because Intercept does have code that works properly but decides not to look at it. The missing features are even worse.  It's not like they can say "we never realized this was a good idea but we finally thpught of it" as they have a working example of what features are a great idea. There's a lot of tolerance towards "inventing things as we go along," but tht's an excuse KSP2 doesn't have/ I don't think the community forgot how bad KSP1 could be at times; it's just that that particular state was a lot more acceptable than in a sequel.

[Bingmao]

8 hours ago, NexusHelium said:

[...] I am simply seeing the facts at a different angle and presenting them in a different way that isn't so pessimistic. [...]

I have to say I really like your mindset. And I love reading your posts!

I love the game and what it eventually will be in the future,  but sometimes I really loose hope in it. But when I read your comments I get hyped again and start to see the positive side again. 

Many will say, seeing things with your eyes is naive or childish or far from reality. But I think it is very mature. In the world we live in, with so many negative news, you have to stay positive for some things.

In the end it's just a game! Stay positive!

[ttikkoo]

12 hours ago, NexusHelium said:

In my opinion, KSP had a far less enjoyable experience in a lot of areas compared to the sequel but that's my opinion. It's not an argument.

May I ask which aspects you find more enjoyable in the sequel? No judgement here I promise, I'm staying out of the KSP2 discussions, just genuine curiosity/interest.

[Sirad]

Interesting Thread, interesing points and im Surprised thats no Locked yet, so Kudos to the Forum Managers.

As for my Point of view, i wouldnt bother if the Game will end up in a completely different Thing as we were Told. But at least, it should end up in a way, you could open it up anytime, play a game, start a new game and Build some more or less usefull stuff. KSP1 does that. its stll, after so many years, fun.

KSP1 has Bugs as well but you have to stretch it to the Hard Limit to encounter game Beraking ones, The smaller Bugs are still in KSP1 but they are not there in such an abundance that you have to reload several Times to get a Craft Properly Loaded (as i recall the gameplay video that was posted here some Time agon in this feed)

I completely understand the more and less saltyness and i fully understand that it has to go somewhere. If you are not satisfied with the Product and noone would vent about that the developer would sit in their Burning offices and would say 'Its Fine' to visualize a common meme.

Everyone could have dodged that Bullet by reading the TOS. I for my Part would have immediately Purcased the Game if the Price would have matched the EA tag. lets say 20 Bucks. Now im waiting if the game ever gets to a state that a NON-Nasa Computer can run my 500+ Part Ships without having to reload any so often until they are as i assembled them. If someone sells a EA for 50 or 60, then Players expect some state of game that wasnt even by the slightest glimpse matched. If so, i formyself as a Publisher would just Hire People dedicated to Manage the Problem i have myself put into it.

So the Lack of communitation just sharpens this issue. If im Selling an Bug Riddled EA Title for a 'Full Price' and dont work my ass of in constant after Sales communication (just properly keep the stream of information rolling) then it gets worse because some Buyers start to think thats gonna lead nowhere and the project is near to get abandoned or set to 1.0 Quick aaand its done.

I understand the Uproar, and i put the Blame on the Publisher. Some buyers feel like 'we got your money, so F off now' And i wont let any excuse like 'its done at reddit or discord or wherever' get away. If this Forum exists, Information has to flow here also.

I havent purchased yet and would, even if the game will cost a hundred bucks but in no way, yet.

[Spicat]

4 hours ago, Kerbart said:

What sours KSP2 is (a) all the bugs that we don't have in KSP1 - delta V bugs, staging bugs, landed status bugs, eva kerbals exerting forces bugs

Not the best pick of bugs, they were definitely present (or are still present) in ksp1:

• Vessel.situation stuck as LANDED when taking off after sliding
• Returning to a vessel makes it permanently display 0 delta-V in all stages if its command module's type is set as Science or Debris
• Structural Tube doesn't calculate DeltaV of engine inside of it
• Wrong fuel/delta v readings
• Kerbal on ladder in EVA causes orbit to degrade around the Mun

That's not saying that ksp2 doesn't have more (or more severe) bugs and I'm sure there are good examples of bugs not present, or different but similar (the kerbal one is probably different). Just found it funny you choose those examples. 

[Devblaze]

my favorite reply in this whole thread is this.

14 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

We promise the game will drop in 2020.  Oh, sorry, we meant 2021.  Oh, darn it all, we have to delay again.

Hey, we're gonna drop patches every 6-8 weeks.  Oh, you mean we're already at 3 months with no word of when we'll deliver?

Hey, you'll get a KERB every 2 weeks.  Oh, we meant every month.  On second thought, how about once in a given month.  Well, Mike has to update his internal calendar, so we'll start whenever he finishes that even though it's been 6 weeks since the last one dropped.

We're going to do AMA's every month.  Oh, well, we meant every once in a while.  Hang on, we'll just scrap those without telling you.

We aren't going to make science just a rehash of what we had in KSP1.  Oh, what we meant was that we are going to take exactly what science was in KSP1 and just dumb it down.

 

[cocoscacao]

15 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Mike has to update his internal calendar

Slightly off topic... If you've witnessed a murder and got detained by the police to testify, I'm sure by this point, that when they asked you to identify the murderer, you'd say: "Officer, it was Mike's internal calendar" 

Edited April 25 by cocoscacao