Developer Insights #23 - Black Hole Sun

[NexusHelium]

28 minutes ago, CameronLeroux said:

keep your eyes safe and stay safe.

Safe my behind. I’m going to stare directly at it! Glasses or no .

[CameronLeroux]

Okay then, "Jeb", don't come running to me if you have a dark or blurry spot in your eyes.

[Flush Foot]

19 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

Safe my behind. I’m going to stare directly at it! Glasses or no .

Don’t you want to safeguard your eyes so you can resume staring at our favourite little green friends after the show is over?

[CameronLeroux]

19 minutes ago, Flush Foot said:

Don’t you want to safeguard your eyes so you can resume staring at our favourite little green friends after the show is over?

Thanks for proving my point in your words.

[Spicat]

Quote

but those QOL issues regarding UI are absolutely a real issue MOST of us suffer through.

How chaotic and finicky the maneuver controllers are is insane. I get that the fundamentals of this feature are well established & likely need tweaking...

 

But to herald the UI as some major congratulatory event, i just don't get.

 

Are these people completely out of touch with their own game and the community.. do moat people actually enjoy using stock controls for Interplanetary Tranfers?

Is there serious disconnect or am I overly critical?

Here you go:

With the interesting bullet point:

On 1/22/2024 at 2:40 PM, Nesses said:

The maneuver gizmo can be difficult to interact with, and precision maneuvers are especially difficult

I hope this big UI update will be before or with colonies but at least they did hear all the stuff we had to say about the UI (I hope they also considered my UI post)

[NexusHelium]

2 hours ago, Flush Foot said:

Don’t you want to safeguard your eyes so you can resume staring at our favourite little green friends after the show is over?

I never stare at them. I stare at the navball and nothing else.

[herbal space program]

6 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

But those QOL issues regarding UI are absolutely a real issue MOST of us suffer through.

How chaotic and finicky the maneuver controllers are is insane. I get that the fundamentals of this feature are well established & likely need tweaking...

Are these people completely out of touch with their own game and the community... do moat people actually enjoy using stock controls for Interplanetary Tranfers?

Is there serious disconnect or am I overly critical?

I don't think you're being overly critical with this part.  As I've been sending more and more missions around the Kerbolar system in my current science playthrough, the problems with the current maneuver system are pulling even with or even surpassing the painfully low framerate for me.  I had to  scrap one of my saved builds that took hours yesterday, because I discovered only on attempting to take it to Dres that the VAB had corrupted it so that it completely broke the maneuver system for that ship. Crazy behavior, with the yellow progress bar surging back and forth randomly and my maneuver heading jumping around every time I staged off a pair of boosters, not only messing up my maneuver but also knocking the other boosters off as the ship abruptly turned. Multiple reverts to the VAB did nothing to fix it, and it took me a couple of hours of total boredom as I waited for my ship to make one glacially slow flight to orbit after another before I realized the problem was baked into the vessel and gave up. I did finally manage to work around it and get to an encounter trajectory on like the fifth try, but it would have been easier ultimately if I had just dispensed with the maneuver node entirely and seat-of-the-pantsed it from the get-go. They really need to clean this stuff up ASAP, because basically nobody will want to play the game if it's like that, EA or not.

Edited April 8 by herbal space program

[Fizzlebop Smith]

22 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

I don't think you're being overly critical with this part.  As I've been sending more and more missions around the Kerbolar system in my current science playthrough, the problems with the current maneuver system are pulling even with or even surpassing the painfully low framerate for me.  I had to  scrap one of my saved builds that took hours yesterday, because I discovered only on attempting to take it to Dres that the VAB had corrupted it so that it completely broke the maneuver system for that ship. Crazy behavior, with the yellow progress bar surging back and forth randomly and my maneuver heading jumping around every time I staged off a pair of boosters, not only messing up my maneuver but also knocking the other boosters off as the ship abruptly turned. Multiple reverts to the VAB did nothing to fix it, and it took me a couple of hours of total boredom as I waited for my ship to make one glacially slow flight to orbit after another before I realized the problem was baked into the vessel and gave up. I did finally manage to work around it and get to an encounter trajectory on like the fifth try, but it would have been easier ultimately if I had just dispensed with the maneuver node entirely and seat-of-the-pantsed it from the get-go. The really need to clean this stuff up ASAP, because basically nobody will want to play the game if it's like that, EA or not.

I have such mixed feelings regarding these kinds of promotional materials. 

I had only about 2500 total parts cruising through my system on various multi mission endeavors.

The performance drip is quite noticeable, but for some reason I am more willing to tolerate that. 

I see general performance increases to be a gradual / incremental process... where as the UI & Timewarp issues make it very hard to play.

This isn't the same thing with my lack of player engagement (e.g Missions) .. which makes it hard for me to *enjoy*

 

I also feel really guilty for getting angry when i see  Dev Blogs and AMAs like we've been give.

This kind of content for a science game is awesome! When combined with actual information of worth.

I just want them to say "Look we know you are all liquided. We are sorry, this is how we plan to fix some things"

I could give 2 sh*ts about blame. It is dumb and has nothing but negativity surrounding it.

Accountability is something else altogether. 

 

The intwerwebs offers me nothing but bitter fruits regarding T2 ethical practices.. or lack  there of. From the Duke Nukem, GTA Remaster & antics related to SEC investigations... 

So this admission is likely either 10 years away during post employment periods or.. never.

 

I am begining to think it must be a labor of love for Nertea & Blackrack bc it reads like a cut throat place to work.

Edited April 8 by Fizzlebop Smith

[herbal space program]

3 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

I also feel really guilty for getting angry when i see  Dev Blogs and AMAs like we've been give.

This kind of content for a science game is awesome! When combined with actual information of worth.

Hey, at least they're making an effort to show us something. I do feel bad for the dev team member who posted this, because he's just showing us what he's working on in his own lane and almost certainly has no involvement in or control over the issues that are causing all these rotten tomatoes to be lobbed in response to his post.  Like you said, there's nothing at all wrong with what he posted, even if it's of no great consequence, and clearly it took some work to do and it's not his fault that other aspects of dev team communication about the much less sexy subjects of performance and bugs are lacking. To that end, I think they need some kind of a pinned "What did you do to make KSP2 more playable today" thread for the dev team, in which they skip all the window dressing and just give us fairly frequent but succinct little tidbits about what they're doing to deal with all the nuts and bolts issues, day in, day out. Maybe they shouldn't even allow comments from the peanut gallery in that thread, only upvotes. That way, they'll have an organic way of knowing which identified bugs/performance issues have the highest community priority and we'll have more frequent reassurance that they're actually taking these issues seriously. Moving K.E.R.B. to monthly was definitely a step in the wrong direction in that regard.  Instead, they should have made their updates on these matters less comprehensive but much more frequent.

Edited April 8 by herbal space program

[Fizzlebop Smith]

That's what I think as well.

 

This community is sure as heck a lot smarter than myself..

Posting the real meat and bones of what is going on WOULD absolutely be well received.

Those of you with knowledge of code would fill us in..same about the advanced maths.

It would absolutely (IMO) do a great deal to foster good will in the community... not just at devs but amongst ourselves. It would promote the discussions this forum  has in abundance, but not as much of late.

Edited April 9 by Fizzlebop Smith

[herbal space program]

17 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

This community is sure as heck a lot smarter than myself..

In the heyday of KSP1, I'm not sure if there was any computer game-based forum anywhere on this planet that had more really smart people participating in it. It was inspirational.

[Kimera Industries]

The title "Black Hole Sun" is rather misleading. I figured it meant they were going to add a black hole. 

Solar eclipses are cool, too!

[The Aziz]

Quote

Hey, at least they're making an effort to show us something. I do feel bad for the dev team member who posted this, because he's just showing us what he's working on in his own lane and almost certainly has no involvement in or control over the issues that are causing all these rotten tomatoes to be lobbed in response to his post.  Like you said, there's nothing at all wrong with what he posted, even if it's of no great consequence, and clearly it took some work to do and it's not his fault that other aspects of dev team communication about the much less sexy subjects of performance and bugs are lacking

I personally don't even mind that the post is here, it's thematically fitting to current events and all, may spark some interest.

The problem is, the in-game eclipses don't exactly work. See my very first post in this thread. It could work better as "here's how eclipses look like now and it's not much, but here's some work on how we're planning for them to look like".

Hell they're not even rendering Kerbol as an object until you're below a certain altitude - way way WAY lower even than Moho. And I hope I don't need to remind just how big Kerbol is on Moho's sky. In KSP2 it's just a gigantic (low res) sunflare.

You'll never see this happening, even at proper scale

 

[Oak7603]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

The problem is, the in-game eclipses don't exactly work. See my very first post in this thread. It could work better as "here's how eclipses look like now and it's not much, but here's some work on how we're planning for them to look like"

But for me I have no idea why they are bothering to even spend the time modelling it. I get it's topical but a post showcasing eclipses as they are and a challenge would be enough. It seems crazy that they bother spending any time when there are so many bugs from the beginning that they can't work out - wheels! They can't even make wheels work. I'm not talking about making them work in different gravity, on different surfaces, with different loads or different inclines, I just mean simple driving  away from the craft. What about the maneuver nodes that people are screaming out to be changed? What about wobbly rockets. What about fairings that don't work. The list goes on.

There is something wrong with the way this game is going. Is it money, management, staff, processes, too complex to do, too big a project. I have no idea but is it surmountable? Hopefully, but I am growing more pessimistic, as are a lot of others, some vocal, more not so much, as time goes by.

[The Aziz]

9 minutes ago, Oak7603 said:

It seems crazy that they bother spending any time when there are so many bugs from the beginning that they can't work out - wheels!

*sigh* the author of this dev diary ain't gonna help fixing the wheels. Here's why:

Quote

I’m Jon Cioletti, the Senior Technical Artist focused on lighting and VFX here at Intercept Games!

 

Edited April 9 by The Aziz

[Scarecrow71]

45 minutes ago, Oak7603 said:

What about wobbly rockets.

Even as big of a detractor from KSP2 as I am, I cannot just let you spit this out without retorting.  They fixed this.  Several patches ago.

[PDCWolf]

48 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Even as big of a detractor from KSP2 as I am, I cannot just let you spit this out without retorting.  They fixed this.  Several patches ago.

It's also important to say that they fixed it with duct tape, after saying they'd not be using duct tape, after saying *this glorified bug* was part of what made the game so Kerbal. Also, after months of it being the top voted issue and multiple youtubers saying it was making the game unplayable.

Credit where it is due, but just like the bugtracker, we had to make not just an excellent case, but also put them on blast.

Edited April 9 by PDCWolf

[Meecrob]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

*sigh* the author of this dev diary ain't gonna help fixing the wheels. Here's why:

I understand where you are coming from, The Aziz, people should direct their complaints to the appropriate departments, but the issue is there are so many complaints, it is useless attempting to delegate them. Its a "whole game" problem that needs the dev team to come together and really decide what they want to do with this game. Is it an arcade-y game for kids that will inspire kids to play video games or a proper simulation akin to MSFS that allows players to do whatever they want and inspire people to work in the aerospace field? One has a legacy, one has more money up front. This is Take Two we are talking about. They already killed GTA for money. Everyone who made those games what they are have left the studio.

[Scarecrow71]

15 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

It's also important to say that they fixed it with duct tape, after saying they'd not be using duct tape, after saying *this glorified bug* was part of what made the game so Kerbal. Also, after months of it being the top voted issue and multiple youtubers saying it was making the game unplayable.

Credit where it is due, but just like the bugtracker, we had to make not just an excellent case, but also put them on blast.

Agreed.  The problem may have been resolved with airplane glue and cotton balls - not to mention there is still the JSON file edit workaround - but it was, technically, resolved.  But I don't disagree with you about how the community had to use a battering ram to get the company to see that it was a problem.

[cocoscacao]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Even as big of a detractor from KSP2 as I am, I cannot just let you spit this out without retorting.  They fixed this.  Several patches ago.

They didn't. Just because current small part-count rockets don't wobble as much, doesn't mean the underlying issue is not present. You're just not seeing its effect yet. I'm curious how OAB designs and overall space stations will behave, once they arrive...

Edited April 9 by cocoscacao
contraction to possessive

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

They didn't. Just because current small part-count rockets don't wobble as much, doesn't mean the underlying issue is not present. You're just not seeing its effect yet. I'm curious how OAB designs and overall space stations will behave, once they arrive...

No, they did in fact fix the base issue.  If you are still seeing wobbliness in your rockets, then you need to check your struts and your build.

[MechBFP]

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

They didn't. Just because current small part-count rockets don't wobble as much, doesn't mean the underlying issue is not present. You're just not seeing its effect yet. I'm curious how OAB designs and overall space stations will behave, once they arrive...

No, it is definitely fixed.

[cocoscacao]

Just now, Scarecrow71 said:

No, they did in fact fix the base issue

By using autostruts. I think @PDCWolf already elaborated above why that is not a fix of the underlying problem. Again, just because your rockets don't wobble now, doesn't mean larger structures won't be wobbling in the future. 

[Scarecrow71]

7 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

By using autostruts. I think @PDCWolf already elaborated above why that is not a fix of the underlying problem. Again, just because your rockets don't wobble now, doesn't mean larger structures won't be wobbling in the future. 

It doesn't matter how they fixed it.  The fact is they fixed it.  Is it the best or most elegant fix on the market?  Probably not.  But it currently is not an issue.

[herbal space program]

13 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

By using autostruts. I think @PDCWolf already elaborated above why that is not a fix of the underlying problem. Again, just because your rockets don't wobble now, doesn't mean larger structures won't be wobbling in the future. 

I've built some pretty big stuff recently, and although it still requires the judicious placement of some struts manually, it's way, way better than it was before. My docked together Eve 10 stack on LKO must be like 200 meters long, and although the framerate on it is terrible and it occasionally develops phantom motions and shakes itself to bits apropos of nothing, it doesn't exhibit any wet noodle behavior that I've seen. As to the solution being "duct tape", i.e. autostruts, are you sure there is actually a better solution than that using this physics engine? If you call those "tack welds" rather than autostruts, it seems like a llegit solution to me.

4 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It doesn't matter how they fixed it.  The fact is they fixed it.  Is it the best or most elegant fix on the market?  Probably not.  But it currently is not an issue.

There are definitely much worse problems currently they should be focusing on before they try to improve their wobbly rockets solution, unless of course that solution is in fact what is tanking the frame rate.

Edited April 9 by herbal space program