At what point do you see yourself "committing" more seriously to KSP2?

[Flush Foot]

@Director_Valle in KSP 1, I usually did the contracts more for funds than for science (and the free/paid-for new Kerbonauts).

That said, my usual "gameplay loop" in KSP 1 was to get to Minmus, get up to ISRU-tech, make refueling infrastructure for deep-space exploration, and then (usually) not bother getting that far as I was too busy with Science Labs cranking out endless supplies of Science Points while fully fueling my various orbital stations. 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I need progressive mission advancement to stay engaged. Over 2000+ hours in KSP1 & greatly look forward to a day that I can willingly play KSP2 with the same enthusiasm.

All I want for Christmas is for science to generate mmissions. I could take a few days off occasionally and distance myself from bugs while I wait on their eradication if I only had an infinite mission loop.

I don't even need the quirky dialogues. I can make those up . . It's the mission part I struggle with. Self imposed objectives offer my very little joy.

[Director_Valle]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't think this is optional.  We need the ability to cleanly dock in orbit and then go about our constructing business.  The fact that KSP1 has EVA construction but KSP2 does not is mind-boggling.  I mean, forget orbital colonies - KSP1 has the ability to bring parts with you in storage containers, and then open the EVA construction mode to attach those parts.

For sure, it is a must have for KSP2 1.0, but while on EA I’m willing to call it optional (as long as the docking ports are structurally viable).

59 minutes ago, Flush Foot said:

@Director_Valle in KSP 1, I usually did the contracts more for funds than for science (and the free/paid-for new Kerbonauts).

That said, my usual "gameplay loop" in KSP 1 was to get to Minmus, get up to ISRU-tech, make refueling infrastructure for deep-space exploration, and then (usually) not bother getting that far as I was too busy with Science Labs cranking out endless supplies of Science Points while fully fueling my various orbital stations. 

I meant the way KSP2 contracts work. And sure, on KSP1 there is no need to go beyond the Kerbin system science-wise, but I do so anyway for exploration/roleplaying.

[never_do]

My big problems are:

• Too many bugs
• Improve the manveuer tool
• Implement resources or currency or something like that

But all of that will take a lot of time. Resources are pretty much at the bottom at the roadmap. And bufixing is only improving very slowly.

So to answer the question: Probably never.

[adsii1970]

Just now, never_do said:

My big problems are:

• Too many bugs
• Improve the manveuer tool
• Implement resources or currency or something like that

But all of that will take a lot of time. Resources are pretty much at the bottom at the roadmap. And bufixing is only improving very slowly.

So to answer the question: Probably never.

I'm sharing my views as a forum member, not as a member of the moderation team.

When I first began playing the original Kerbal Space Program in 0.18, I felt the same way you did. However, as the updates were rolling out and the modders in the community were adding content, the next thing I knew, I had close to 500 hours in the game. It kept getting better and better as time went on. By the time 0.9 (Beta than ever) was released, I will admit my pessimism was gone, and I was hooked.

Surprisingly, I am willing to give KSP2 a little slack here. It has some new faces that were not part of the original studio, but remember, Squad was not a gaming studio. Also, Intercept Games hired many of Squad's later programmers who worked on KSP1 towards the end. A few prolific modders have been hired into the program over the last few years. I am optimistic about the future of KSP2 for a couple of reasons, and I have no problems sharing with you the reasons why:

• The hired modders are very passionate about the KSP1 community and still find the time to maintain their mods. They are also dedicated to the success of KSP2 and want to see it succeed since they are now a part of its development team. No one wants to be a part of a failed project.
• Improvements are being made, and although communication is happening, it's not happening at the speed most of us would like. I won't carry any "corporate line" here, as often as moderators are accused of doing. But if we are honest, Intercept Games probably provides better communication than most independent gaming studios. There's no shortage of information (both good and questionable) about the future of KSP.
  • We have not experienced the "here's this great update" with no word from the studio for nearly eleven months as one game I own that's in early access has done.
  • Intercept Games has multiple social media platforms, all of which provide different pieces of information about progress being made on KSP2.
  • I occasionally find KSP2-related articles on online gaming websites containing information about the game's progress.
• I believe we will see KSP2.0 released, but I also think we will see a repeat of what happened with KSP1. There will be many updates until all the bugs are worked out. But what is released now is just as playable as 0.24 was in the early days of KSP1.

KSP2 was an ambitious project from the day it was on the drawing board. I am optimistic we will have a great game when it reaches whatever KSP2.XX is deemed the "final" version. I also look forward to seeing what our modding community continues to develop for KSP2 and what fun, shiny toys any potential DLC might bring.

[Scarecrow71]

6 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

I'm sharing my views as a forum member, not as a member of the moderation team.

When I first began playing the original Kerbal Space Program in 0.18, I felt the same way you did. However, as the updates were rolling out and the modders in the community were adding content, the next thing I knew, I had close to 500 hours in the game. It kept getting better and better as time went on. By the time 0.9 (Beta than ever) was released, I will admit my pessimism was gone, and I was hooked.

Surprisingly, I am willing to give KSP2 a little slack here. It has some new faces that were not part of the original studio, but remember, Squad was not a gaming studio. Also, Intercept Games hired many of Squad's later programmers who worked on KSP1 towards the end. A few prolific modders have been hired into the program over the last few years. I am optimistic about the future of KSP2 for a couple of reasons, and I have no problems sharing with you the reasons why:

• The hired modders are very passionate about the KSP1 community and still find the time to maintain their mods. They are also dedicated to the success of KSP2 and want to see it succeed since they are now a part of its development team. No one wants to be a part of a failed project.
• Improvements are being made, and although communication is happening, it's not happening at the speed most of us would like. I won't carry any "corporate line" here, as often as moderators are accused of doing. But if we are honest, Intercept Games probably provides better communication than most independent gaming studios. There's no shortage of information (both good and questionable) about the future of KSP.
  • We have not experienced the "here's this great update" with no word from the studio for nearly eleven months as one game I own that's in early access has done.
  • Intercept Games has multiple social media platforms, all of which provide different pieces of information about progress being made on KSP2.
  • I occasionally find KSP2-related articles on online gaming websites containing information about the game's progress.
• I believe we will see KSP2.0 released, but I also think we will see a repeat of what happened with KSP1. There will be many updates until all the bugs are worked out. But what is released now is just as playable as 0.24 was in the early days of KSP1.

KSP2 was an ambitious project from the day it was on the drawing board. I am optimistic we will have a great game when it reaches whatever KSP2.XX is deemed the "final" version. I also look forward to seeing what our modding community continues to develop for KSP2 and what fun, shiny toys any potential DLC might bring.

Not to harsh or anything, but HarvesteR just released Kithack with a team of 5...and it is far more polished than KSP2.

[adsii1970]

5 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Not to harsh or anything, but HarvesteR just released Kithack with a team of 5...and it is far more polished than KSP2.

It is also not as complex as KSP2. I am familiar with the game.

It would be like comparing chocolate cake and a chocolate chip cookie. Yes, they both have chocolate and are considered enjoyable. But both are uniquely different.

[Scarecrow71]

38 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

It is also not as complex as KSP2. I am familiar with the game.

It would be like comparing chocolate cake and a chocolate chip cookie. Yes, they both have chocolate and are considered enjoyable. But both are uniquely different.

Kithack has controller support, multiplayer, and a mission/scenario editor.  Not to mention KSP2 is backed by a major organization, while Kithack is a team of 5.  And if that isn't enough, Felipe is actively engaged with the community to squash bugs and give/get feedback.

I will agree that orbital mechanics trumps the complexity.  But somehow a team of 5 has managed to incorporate what PD has stated is the most difficult aspect (multiplayer) during their own EA.

[NexusHelium]

6 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

has managed to incorporate what PD has stated is the most difficult aspect (multiplayer) during their own EA.

The thing about KSP2’s multiplayer is it includes all of the features of KSP 2, including things like time warp and massive part systems while also rendering multiple massive bodies in a ginormous worlds (at that point)

so yeah. I would say it’s going to be pretty difficult to figure out. Much more difficult than a much smaller world with a specific and compact rendering system and doesn’t include time manipulation for multiple players.

[Scarecrow71]

1 minute ago, NexusHelium said:

The thing about KSP2’s multiplayer is it includes all of the features of KSP 2, including things like time warp and massive part systems while also rendering multiple massive bodies in a ginormous worlds (at that point)

so yeah. I would say it’s going to be pretty difficult to figure out. Much more difficult than a much smaller world with a specific and compact rendering system and doesn’t include time manipulation for multiple players.

I'm just saying a team of 5, led by the OG of KSP himself, is kicking butt while we all watch PD fail.  Regardless of the complexity, you can't ignore the progress.

[NexusHelium]

3 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

while we all watch PD fail.

They are most certainly not failing. They fail when they quit and I guarantee you they will not quit. Also, I don’t really see how Private Division has anything to do with this. They are publishing the game. IG is working on it.

Edited April 18 by NexusHelium

[Cytauri]

I'll commit to the game when its done. No more waiting for lies. 

[NexusHelium]

5 minutes ago, Cytauri said:

 

I'll commit to the game when its done. No more waiting for lies. 

 

What lies do you speak of exactly? Cause there hasn’t been anything that I would consider a “lie” after the launch of the game.

[Scarecrow71]

22 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

They are most certainly not failing. They fail when they quit and I guarantee you they will not quit. Also, I don’t really see how Private Division has anything to do with this. They are publishing the game. IG is working on it.

I'm not trying to argue with you.  My mind can't keep straight where PD and IG fit into this, so my bad.  Let me start over.

TT is in fact failing on this project.  Years of unfilled promises, endless delays, a buggy mess that barely qualifies as an alpha release, radio silence, and now the announcement of layoffs and project cancelations.  The article literally called out that PD is going to be impacted, so regardless of what we are told about funding and work being done, the plain truth is that stuff is happening at PD.

It took 10 months to get the first roadmap update, and now we can't even get updates on what they are working on.  Bug reports are a joke, the bug subforum is hot garbage at best, and they are still researching bugs that have been present since launch.  All while being told they will communicate more but give only silence.

I love KSP1.  I am in the middle of a career save in that right now, and I'm doing stuff I've never tried before.  KSP2 actually got me to finally go to Jool, which is freaking awesome.  There are so many things about this game that I want to like, but the performance issues, bugs, and lack of progression beyond the story have made me shelve it.  The game is failing to keep a large section of the community engaged; this thread is proof of that.

Again, I'm not trying to argue.  You have your point of view on this, and I have mine.

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Not to harsh or anything, but HarvesteR just released Kithack with a team of 5...and it is far more polished than KSP2.

That's not harsh at all. Are you playing and enjoying it?

I'm playing and enjoying tons of games. I considered Kithack when it was first announced. Maybe I'll check it out now that it's in Early Access.

Doesn't for one second change anything about KSP2.

Edited April 18 by Superfluous J

[Scarecrow71]

9 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

That's not harsh at all. Are you playing and enjoying it?

I'm playing and enjoying tons of games. I considered Kithack when it was first announced. Maybe I'll check it out now that it's in Early Access.

Doesn't for one second change anything about KSP2.

I am playing it.  And enjoying it.

My point about bringing it up is to show that a dedicated person with a small team and almost no external funding is doing better than a professional team with the backing of a large corporation.  Why can't TT/PD/IG do what Felipe is doing?

[cocoscacao]

17 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Why can't TT/PD/IG do what Felipe is doing?

In their defense here... scope difference...

[LoSBoL]

Spring and summer is coming, so I don't have a problem laying KSP2 away for another couple of months due to me having enough to do. Won't start it up untill I can create a manoeuvre beyond the current orbit though, so I'm keeping an eye out till that finally gets fixed, can't (won't) do a orbital mechanics game if you can't do the orbital mechanics.

[NexusHelium]

12 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Years of unfilled promises, endless delays, a buggy mess that barely qualifies as an alpha release, radio silence, and now the announcement of layoffs and project cancelations.

Hey... At least they're doing better than silksong  in terms of communications 

Edited April 18 by NexusHelium

[Fizzlebop Smith]

Kithack seems to be shaping up fairly well.

It is incredibly in depth.. in that you must built the actual RC craft. Complete with transmission / differential considerations.

Various drive options.

HarvesteR excels at taking a really nice interest.. and taking it over the top.

The game will appeal to more than just the RC enthusiasts.. just like KSP1 had appeal to more than the "rocket nerd"

But thay niche is where it really caters too. 

I don't think it is fair to generalize and compare aspects of development between the two. The scope is vastly different.

All elements of KSP2 are being developed concurrently. Only possible with large teams.

 

What I will say.. I think playing kithack has made me realize (I think) what is wrong with KSP2 (so far).. it lost that niche focus wide appeal.

I am not so much a rocket geek but have overlap in science & love management and space games.

I guess it's hard to make the same magic happen twice.

 

I'll repeat my feeling of "once I was an explorer.. a pioneer.

Now I am just a throttle jockey seeking the next statue that says 'killjoy was here'

[steveman0]

4 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

My point about bringing it up is to show that a dedicated person with a small team and almost no external funding is doing better than a professional team with the backing of a large corporation.  Why can't TT/PD/IG do what Felipe is doing?

Am I mistaken in recalling that you were a software developer of some sort? Surely a software developer would recognize the substantial difference in the technical complexity of these two games. From the looks of it, it looks to be a fairly simplistic simulation compared to everything that KSP2 has to account for. I'm not seeing how the scope of these projects can be remotely compared.

[Presto200]

I just had this thought, I think that one of the reasons I am not jumping out of my seat to play the game as much as possible is because the storyline is exponential. By exponential I mean that the mission arch goes from high Kerbin altitude, to Kerbin orbit, to the Mun, to Minmus, to Duna, to Jool, to Tylo (if I'm remembering correctly). After a couple missions you realize that to do the next step it will take a lot of time to complete. I am someone who would rather do a mission all in one sitting, so it makes me not feel encouraged to play the game when I only have half an hour or so of free time. I think if either the progression was slower, or if there was more "side progression" in terms of difficulty instead of big jumps like from on mission to Duna, and the next to Jool. I think also having side missions that still feel like you are contributing to making a solid/effective space agency. KSP1 missions were all tedious (and somewhat lame in comparison to KSP2) they still all were given the context of doing these things as testing and creating orbital infrastructure, in KSP2 they all just feel like we're doing the things just to prove that we can do it.

[Scarecrow71]

34 minutes ago, steveman0 said:

Am I mistaken in recalling that you were a software developer of some sort? Surely a software developer would recognize the substantial difference in the technical complexity of these two games. From the looks of it, it looks to be a fairly simplistic simulation compared to everything that KSP2 has to account for. I'm not seeing how the scope of these projects can be remotely compared.

I am software developer.  Or, rather, an automation specialist, responsible for inbound and outbound file loads/generation to/from various internal and external entities.  So yes, I fully understand the complexity of KSP2 to Kithack.  The biggest difference is in the orbital mechanics involved in KSP2; Kithack doesn't have to worry about that...yet (there are rumors of taking some of the model rockets and getting them out of the upper atmosphere, but I don't think they are even close to that yet).  However, you still have the issue of physics, and all the math that comes with that, when you are talking about what is effectively a digital Lego set to put craft together.  And while KSP2 focuses almost entirely on engine-driven rockets and planes, Kithack deals with rockets, planes, cars, motorcycles, boats, and gliders.  All with and without engines.  I'm not saying one is better or more complex than the other, just that neither one really has the same scope as the other.

Now, if you want to break down what I'm really talking about, let's do that.  Felipe - who was the original author of KSP1, and who coded and released multiple versions in its history during his free time and without really being paid - has put together, once again, a game from scratch where no other space really existed before, and he's doing it with a very small team and very little funding.  KSP2, on the other hand, has a full team of developers, and is backed by one of the largest corporate gaming studios.  So my question, really, is "Why is Felipe able to get code done by himself faster than a full team is capable of".  And, to expand on that, why is he able to do so in a space that didn't really exist when the team at KSP2 has the original on-hand for inspiration but they can't seem to even get beyond the dV or maneuver node bugs?  I mean, they have the original in-house.  They have the first game to go off of.  They have everything sitting right there, but for some reason are refusing to use the old code to help them along.

Let's take this a step further, shall we?  Kithack is already providing mod support, while KSP2 is not really doing so.  Even though we were told it would, it isn't anywhere near being able to provide that support.  Kithack has a mission/scenario editor built in, while KSP2 has a very strict set of story-driven missions that we have been told on Discord recently won't change even with colonies.  Kithack has full controller support, while KSP2 doesn't and has no plans to enable that any time in the near future.  I would love to discuss multiplayer, but I have to admit that multiplayer in KSP2 is going to be very tricky due to time warp, which Kithack doesn't have.

So why does KSP2 get a free pass here?  Why is it that on some of the less technical pieces Felipe is able to implement stuff that the developers at KSP2 simply cannot?  How is it that a singular developer can come to early access with a game far more polished by himself in a space that doesn't really exist, but a fully backed developer studio with a budget of millions can't even get out of their own way long enough to deal with bugs that have been around since launch 14 freaking months ago?  The studio is filled with really smart people - Nertea and Blackrack at a minimum come to mind.  How is it that they simply can't seem to do with historical code that Felipe can do without having any code at all to rely on?

[Fizzlebop Smith]

The wheel physics of kithsck is on point. That is an area where they have put a great deal of effort. Fully building suspension systems, with gearing differential.

Considering KSP1 had bearable wheel physics and a mod that made them much more functional... the state of the wheel really sucks.

 

My rockers still leap into the air as I'd hitting a wall.. then do slow circles on their side...

ZIIIP off in a straight line and repeat.

 

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Now, if you want to break down what I'm really talking about, let's do that.  Felipe - who was the original author of KSP1, and who coded and released multiple versions in its history during his free time and without really being paid - has put together, once again, a game from scratch where no other space really existed before, and he's doing it with a very small team and very little funding. 

Having played only 90 minutes of it, I had a blast and it was clear to me there's a lot of stuff he has learned from and made better. From simple details like center-of and node indicators not being spheres for extra precision, to internal views, a very deep controller interface config screen, and keeping what works and not making it different just because (looking at you VAB controls). Building is more detailed but not more cumbersome, physics are more detailed but without all the scary ghosts of scaring users away some here were seeing.

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

So why does KSP2 get a free pass here? 

In the grand scheme of things, sales numbers, reviews, community sentiment, KSP2 hasn't gotten a pass. It's only people here and on the discord that are ready to give it the pass because either they genuinely like it, or they really feel bad about having spent $50 on it or some other reason...

1 hour ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

The wheel physics of kithsck is on point. That is an area where they have put a great deal of effort. Fully building suspension systems, with gearing differential.

This is what makes KSP wheels so whack, you're forced to either build a whole suspension system dealing with the wacky physics, or you'll have to use the single-piston, non-coordinated, default suspension, and at the speeds we work with in KSP, that just doesn't cut it, so it feels like you're skating on ice.

Edited April 18 by PDCWolf