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1 minute ago, VoidSquid said:

Not so long ago:  

 

If at least they sold it for what it is...
I have acquired on the Steam a planetary simulator, which says in very large letters, that it is a BETA in development.
So you know to stick, and not lose your teeth for your use...

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Before this comes to console squad needs to send a new update for consoles. The enhanced editons are having the kraken attack everyday.

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Kerbal said:

Before this comes to console squad needs to send a new update for consoles. The enhanced editons are having the kraken attack everyday.

Maybe if we stop sweetening the mistakes, blaming the Kraken and naming them as what they are...
Those good days of Tindall or the cries of Korollev....

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Interesting thoughts from everyone.

I agree that some features were not necessary in the base game. They could have been in a paid DLC.  I would have paid for it but might not have used it much. (I would pay for more surface features.)

Bugs fixes in DLC? Nah-ah.  Bug fixes should be mandatory for the base game for free. Because that is the product.  You can't say: 'Here, buy the broken game and pay more for us to maybe fix the bugs'. In my opinion the base game has to be healthy and run well. You want bells and whistles? That's the DLC. But that needs support too. 

(Sidenote: If you mod the game and it's broken? Sorry, that's on the mod developer to fix. Not on Squad.  Again, the priority should be to make the base game functioning. I use like two mods anyway. I'm used to having no cheats on console edition either. ) 

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9 minutes ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

(Sidenote: If you mod the game and it's broken? Sorry, that's on the mod developer to fix. Not on Squad.  Again, the priority should be to make the base game functioning. I use like two mods anyway. I'm used to having no cheats on console edition either. ) 

I have a more conservative opinion. Modding is almost essential on KSP, breaking add'ons should happen on a really, really need to happen basis. If there's a way to do the same thing without breaking existing add'ons, that path should be taken.

You don't want your users (worse, your content creators) locking themselves on older versions of the game - you would be sabotaging your chances to sell them a DLC, not to mention the free adverting you lose by they not using DLCs on their content.

Parts that start to blow up on new releases, UI widgets that stop working as expected, API calls that changes behaviours, hardcoded solutions ruling out add'ons from working in paralel with new features, all of that must be avoided as the plague - or at least a mitigation code published to prevent authors to have to rely on non forum compliant activities to fix their add'ons. If the only way to fix what's broken is to break forum rules, you will end up with the rules demoralised or the authors going away from the forum.

It's perfectly possible to move ahead without breaking legacy - at least, most of the time.

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7 minutes ago, Lisias said:

I have a more conservative opinion. Modding is almost essential on KSP, breaking add'ons should happen on a really, really need to happen basis. 

True from a testing perspective. However, there's the squad product and then there's the game with mods. And the two are different. So when someone has lots of mods and some things don't work properly in the game, does Squad have responsibility for it?  Players can blur the lines between the two perhaps. Sure, understanding mods can help understand some of the mechanics in the base game and tie up some loose ends. 

I guess I am looking at it from this way because I play on console too. And boy it's not fun recently. It has great potential. Loads so much faster on ps5 than on PC. Beautiful. Not laggy, just gets corrupted every 20 minutes or so. The controls are fun. I wish the controller worked with the pc version but I haven't found a mod for it yet. 

BTW. I say hats off to people who make mods. That is some high level knowledge, dedication. 

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7 hours ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

True from a testing perspective. However, there's the squad product and then there's the game with mods. And the two are different. So when someone has lots of mods and some things don't work properly in the game, does Squad have responsibility for it?  

As much as the add'on authors have resposability when they break KSP.

Do you want people to use your add'on? Fix your mess instead blaming others - or at least call for help when the thing is too big for you. It's the same for KSP.

It's not about us, developers. It's about the users. Being fair or unfair, you break their toys, you will have to handle the backslash. Simple like that.

It's what's happening already, if you are following the posts on this thread.

 

7 hours ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

Players can blur the lines between the two perhaps. Sure, understanding mods can help understand some of the mechanics in the base game and tie up some loose ends. 

The ones with the money usually blur things the way they want. Finding that sweet spot where you satisfy their demands (blurred or not) and still get a nice profit is the hard part, granted - managing spectations from stakeholders is an dark and arcane art, by the way. 

 

7 hours ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

I guess I am looking at it from this way because I play on console too. And boy it's not fun recently. It has great potential. Loads so much faster on ps5 than on PC. Beautiful. Not laggy, just gets corrupted every 20 minutes or so. 

People on consoles are completely different beasts - we pay premium and wave customizations (not to mention lockdowns), and we want something in exchange - and this one thing is convenience and rock solid stability. Usually on a heavily constrained environment.

Doing console is hard as hell, you can ask CDPR about.

I do not envy the guys doing the Console port...

 

7 hours ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

The controls are fun. I wish the controller worked with the pc version but I haven't found a mod for it yet. 

And this is how an Add'On is born! :)

I have a 8BitDo M30 and a MS Sidewinder on my rig, and I would love to use the M30 to control Kerbals on ground EVA, while using it to handle RCS traslations on the ship. And still keep the Sidewinder working as expected.

The hard part is, as usual, coping with Unity. The Unity's support for multiple controllers are... Hummm... Insuficient. (or at least it was last time I checked about it)

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20 hours ago, Anth12 said:

I think the EVA construction was DLC worthy.

Maybe that's the reason its having so many problems because its just a free update.

I really hope for a 1.11.2

I wish for a 1.11.2 release. Will we get one, if we beg politely?!

Edited by Rakete
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Thing is, I'm happy to pay for a good fix-the-bugs release, but not for a new-features-and-new-bugs release (or DLC, for the matter).

And no, I don't want to open another one of these old discussions about what the publisher is obliged to deliver, or what the customer can expect for what amount of money, or what KSP is worth. This is just my personal opinion here.

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3 hours ago, Lisias said:

 

It's not about us, developers. It's about the users. Being fair or unfair, you break their toys, you will have to handle the backslash. 

 

People on consoles are completely different beasts - we pay premium and wave customizations (not to mention lockdowns), and we want something in exchange - and this one thing is convenience and rock solid stability. Usually on a heavily constrained environment.

Doing console is hard as hell, you can ask CDPR about.

 

Since you mentioned the elephant in the room... Cyberpunk got modded quickly, partly to fix bugs with the base game. Then the big January patch broke some mods. Gamers were angry and demanded a fix. CDPR just said no, because that's not their work. They were fixing the base game after all. I think that's the right response from a developer.  

Console ports are difficult. I'm totally with you. I must say I actually liked the enhanced edition until it started corrupting my game regularly. CDPR and the Cyberpunk debacle is a sad but valuable lesson for the industry. You can't hide the fact if a game is broken. And I guess Sony will put more effort into testing games before their release. Mods on PC can balance out some of the bugs. But on console the developers are on their own. 

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35 minutes ago, Rakete said:

I wish for a 1.11.2 release. Will we get one, if we beg politely?!

I think an 1.11.2 is unlikely.  1.12.0 is due is roughly 7-8 weeks, so I doubt they will do a 1.11.2.  

Indeed at the time they announced the quarterly updates they were hoping that with the new process they would be able to reduce the number of updates below 6 per year.  See https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/178756-ksp-weekly-the-moon-race/&do=findComment&comment=3463071 .

My personal opinion is that the only way we will get new updates without new bugs is if they switch to an open beta style of release.  They apparently don't have enough automated test coverage to catch all the regressions, and an open beta is the only other way I can think of for a small team to get enough testing of everything in a game as complex as KSP.     (Please do consider it Squad, at least for the point releases).

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37 minutes ago, VoidSquid said:

Thing is, I'm happy to pay for a good fix-the-bugs release, but not for a new-features-and-new-bugs release (or DLC, for the matter).

And no, I don't want to open another one of these old discussions about what the publisher is obliged to deliver, or what the customer can expect for what amount of money, or what KSP is worth. This is just my personal opinion here.

Yeah, you got that pretty backwards.

You pay for a working product. If it doesn't work properly, it should be fixed without extra charges. Having to pay for bug fixes is a ridiculous concept.

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3 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

Yeah, you got that pretty backwards.

You pay for a working product. If it doesn't work properly, it should be fixed without extra charges. Having to pay for bug fixes is a ridiculous concept.

I'm not going into that discussion.

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2 hours ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

Since you mentioned the elephant in the room... Cyberpunk got modded quickly, partly to fix bugs with the base game. Then the big January patch broke some mods. Gamers were angry and demanded a fix. CDPR just said no, because that's not their work. They were fixing the base game after all. I think that's the right response from a developer.  

CDPR didn't released the game 10 years ago and heavily relied on add'on authors for adding content to it since them. I have every single release ever published on Steam, I installed every one of them and I compared the content with the add'ons available on the time. I even located and archived the Add'On that was the origin for the Mark2 plane parts. :) 

Squad had made good use of the community as a laboratory for testing ideas, and now is harvesting (pun not intended :sticktongue:) on that knowledge base acquired on all these years to improve their own product.

So, in a nutshell, Add'Ons were a keystone for KSP since day one.

Of course they have the right to change their minds at any moment - but so do we, users and authors.

This does not have to be a zero sum game.

 

2 hours ago, AVaughan said:

My personal opinion is that the only way we will get new updates without new bugs is if they switch to an open beta style of release.  They apparently don't have enough automated test coverage to catch all the regressions, and an open beta is the only other way I can think of for a small team to get enough testing of everything in a game as complex as KSP.     (Please do consider it Squad, at least for the point releases).

I second that.

 

2 hours ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

Console ports are difficult. I'm totally with you. I must say I actually liked the enhanced edition until it started corrupting my game regularly. CDPR and the Cyberpunk debacle is a sad but valuable lesson for the industry. You can't hide the fact if a game is broken. And I guess Sony will put more effort into testing games before their release. Mods on PC can balance out some of the bugs. But on console the developers are on their own. 

And now you addressed the Rhino on the (porcelain) room. :P 

Every single bug detected and fixed by add'on authors are one less bug to haunt the console users (where I suspect the money really is). This community is (was?) perhaps the better Q/A team that any game developer could wish and afford.

Throw us a bone, we earned it.

Edited by Lisias
Brute force post merging.
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1 hour ago, Lisias said:

 

Every single bug detected and fixed by add'on authors are one less bug to haunt the console users (where I suspect the money really is)

And that's what I would like to see. But it feels like that's not the case because the console edition undoubtedly needs more TLC. I would like to see the knowledge and experience that come from this great forum to translate into improving the enhanced version. 

 

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3 hours ago, AVaughan said:

I think an 1.11.2 is unlikely.  1.12.0 is due is roughly 7-8 weeks, so I doubt they will do a 1.11.2.  

7-8 Weeks till 1.12? I highly doubt this. 

I would not expect 1.12 before the end of july. 

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1 hour ago, MZ_per_X1 said:

And that's what I would like to see. But it feels like that's not the case because the console edition undoubtedly needs more TLC. I would like to see the knowledge and experience that come from this great forum to translate into improving the enhanced version. 

The problems are being diagnosed - but the community can go only so far without relying on Reverse Engineering, what would offend Forum Rules. The fix for these worst problems need to come from Squad - but hey, we are diagnosing them:

Some of these guys that invested their time on diagnosing KSP were scientists, specialists from the automobile industry, hard core testers with training on IBM/Rational testing products (myself), and the list goes on (I'm only talking about the guys I know around here).

It's up to the Community to harvest :sticktongue: such amount of good will and know-how in a useable way - and failing on doing it is not on the contributor's shoulders.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Lisias said:

The problems are being diagnosed - but the community can go only so far without relying on Reverse Engineering, what would offend Forum Rules. The fix for these worst problems need to come from Squad - but hey, we are diagnosing them:

Some of these guys that invested their time on diagnosing KSP were scientists, specialists from the automobile industry, hard core testers with training on IBM/Rational testing products (myself), and the list goes on (I'm only talking about the guys I know around here).

It's up to the Community to harvest :sticktongue: such amount of good will and know-how in a useable way - and failing on doing it is not on the contributor's shoulders.

 

 

Hard to say, these are the worst bugs. Haven't experienced one of them.

For me it's the visual bugs , which disrupt my immersion most.

 

"Worst" is never a objective criteria.

Edited by Rakete
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This is what blew up EJ_SAs craft

https://www.twitch.tv/ej_sa/clip/SweetDarkTarsierYouWHY

https://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/27194

This is another bug that moved EJs entire craft also blowing up things.

https://www.twitch.tv/ej_sa/clip/AgreeableSingleSangFutureMan

https://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/27234

not sure about the spot light @Rakete

Sorry I meant @Lisias who that was quoted from

Edited by Anth12
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Took me hours to figure out what EJ had done. It was obvious he couldn't place the robotic part, even on the ground by the looks of it. (it was staying red)

Then it just snapped into the position it was before he grabbed it because he pressed 'i' to get out of eva construction. Only reason I knew 'i' was how to get in and out 

of EVA construction was because he said so to a viewer

Edited by Anth12
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10 hours ago, Rakete said:

Hard to say, these are the worst bugs. Haven't experienced one of them.

For me it's the visual bugs , which disrupt my immersion most.

Interesting. What about 3-fin vs. 4-fin rockets? Most of my 3-fin boosters have awful roll coupling.  Trying to tilt over to do a gravity turn with a 3-fin rocket and it rolls inexplicably. Like, yaw East 10 degrees and it rolls 10 degrees. SAS doesn't help much. It's an absolute battle to get some of them to orbit. It's not a CoM / CoL type of instability. 4-fins boosters don't do this. Only small roll corrections are needed.  I assumed everyone experienced this.

The worst visual "bug" for me is the how the terrain morphs violently. I hate how the hills and valleys jump up and down and how it makes the framerate stutter. I think Simple Rockets 2 does a better job smoothing the terrain changes. 

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