Star Wars Episode VIII (8) the Last Jedi Discussion

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 hour ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

Throughout the starwars series we see several of the most talented Jedi in the universe lose in battle due to their lack of training. First would be when Luke lost his hand to Darth Vader. The Second when Anakin lost, practically his life, to Obi-Wan Kenobi. When Qui Wan Ginn and Obi-won face darth maul he essentially dominates both of them before killing Qui Wan Ginn and barley falling to Obi-won. Both Anaikin and Obi-won lose to count Dooku only having their lives saved when Yoda arrived (Count Dooku escapes with his life) Then when get the Ren chick who has absolutely no training go super saiyan jedi and wipes out a syth all by her self...... Come on! The dark side has more power than the light side. The only jedi I can recall having the power to use force lighting was Yoda. All the syth have that power.- This is the old movies.

@KSKIn the new movie we have Ren who lord knows isn't in any danger of loosing her life. She can kill a syth who has been groomed to assume the empire in her sleep having never so much as touched a light saber before.

Thank you!

We just want a reason!

[Superfluous J]

7 hours ago, MrWalrus123 said:

I'm just glad it wasn't too much like episode 5. The trailer made it seem like that it was going to be a clone of episode 5, similar to how episode 7 was based off of episode 4.

Actually I remember chuckling at least twice when it looked like they were going to go down an Episode 5 path and then veered off to the side.

[DDE]

1 hour ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

I honestly wonder if JJ Abrams has ever even seen the old star wars.

I actually don’t. TFA was exactly what JJ would do after having usurped a franchise while still temaining benevolent. His departure and the new guidance under “‘The Force is female’? Where do I get this shirt?” Johnson really put the franchise into the gutter.

[snip]

Edited January 4, 2018 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Snark]

[pause to remove asbestos jumpsuit]

Okay, folks.  This thread has been extensively pruned and redacted in order to amputate a raging flamewar among several forum users who ought to know better, who let their strong feelings about Star Wars get the better of them.  Let's just all take a deep breath, step back for a moment, and calm the heck down, shall we?

C'mon, guys, you're better than this. 

Look, I get that for an awful lot of people, Star Wars is sacred ground.  I grew up with the films and am a hopeless Star Wars nerd myself, so I understand how passions can run hot on this topic.  When you see someone who diametrically and vocally disagrees with something that you care a lot about, it can be hard not to lash out.  It's only human.

But please... remember that it's just a movie.  (I'm saying this as a supposedly mature middle-aged human being who still has his 1970s Star Wars action figures, so bear with me, okay?)  It's not worth getting disrespectful to fellow forum members over this, or anything else for that matter.  They're entitled to their opinions, just as you are to yours.

In this forum we treat each other with respect.

It's always okay to disagree.  It's okay to rebut another person's position.  But please, address the post, not the poster.  It's never okay to resort to name-calling or insults, regardless of how strongly you may disagree with someone.  You can express disagreement without personal attacks.

Also, please lay off the telling-other-people-to-knock-it-off.  That's called "backseat moderating" and is, itself, against the rules.  It's not your place to judge whether someone else is breaking the rules, or to tell them what to do or not to do.  If you see someone behaving in a way that seems so egregiously out of bounds that you believe it's breaking the forum rules,  do not respond.  Instead, please just report the post, and the moderator team will deal with anything that needs dealing with.  It's what we're for.

Are we clear?

Okay.  I'm going to re-open the thread now.  Please do not make me regret doing so, and show me that we can talk about Star Wars like nerdy civilized adults.  We'd hate to have to shut down the thread permanently just because folks can't keep a sense of perspective while enjoying a lively debate over fantasy space opera.

(I realize that I may be going out on a limb, here.  Perhaps Star Wars is just one of those topics it's not possible to discuss without boiling over.  As a great man once said, "Three things in life I have learned never to discuss with people:  politics, religion, and the Great Pumpkin."  I do hope we don't have to classify Star Wars as religion and rule it out of bounds.  Play nice, okay?)

Thank you for your understanding.

[Deddly]

7 hours ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

Then we get the Ren chick who has absolutely no training go super saiyan jedi and wipes out a syth all by her self...... Come on

I haven't seen that film, unfortunately (will do though) and that sounds unrealistic. But then, Luke defeating Darth Vader with almost no training was too.

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, Deddly said:

I haven't seen that film, unfortunately (will do though) and that sounds unrealistic. But then, Luke defeating Darth Vader with almost no training was too.

He had weeks of training... we just didn't see it all. He also trained in between 4-5. Either way Luke had some trading Rey has NONE. 

[razark]

As said earlier:

6 hours ago, Snark said:

...remember that it's just a movie.

Whatever happens is completely and utterly what the (current) writer wants to happen.  No further explanations is needed. (But will likely be supplied by a later retcon (read: fanfiction).)

Enjoy the story for what it is, or don't enjoy the the story, but remember that it is fantasy; don't expect it to make sense all the time.

Edited January 4, 2018 by razark

[Cheif Operations Director]

40 minutes ago, razark said:

As said earlier:

Whatever happens is completely and utterly what the (current) writer wants to happen.  No further explanations is needed. (But will likely be supplied by a later retcon (read: fanfiction).)

Enjoy the story for what it is, or don't enjoy the the story, but remember that it is fantasy; don't expect it to make sense all the time.

I hate this line of thought. As Yoda would say this line of thought leads to following others, following others leads to manipulation. 

I can blindly follow what a politician says yes? That's dangerous. I'm not going to blindly follow Walt Disney because they own Star Wars. Disney is really going to need to pull a miracle to save this trilogy. If we blindly follow why do the vast majority of fans hate the prequils... We should blindly follow right? 

Star Wars isn't Thomas the Tank Engine it has become its own universe, it has lore for a reason PEOPLE MAKE A LIVING OFF OF IT! Why blindly follow if EE disregarded all the lore. You need SOME, AND REALLY  ALOT OF TRAINING to duel with a lightsaber much less against someone with "Raw Powaaa!" Like Kylo Ren! This can't be countered by Raw Power. Raw Power by definition is untamed and unpredictable, undisciplined. Rey has "Raw Powaaa!" But is disciplined, tamed, and predicable. Again I say WITH NO TRAINING! So what she just has more Raw Power Points or something. This isn't a low budget film it's Star Wars. A decent plot and charachters without conflicting with established lore isn't to much to ask. What I should be asking for is my money back, a remake, and Ep 7 and Ep 8 to be stripped of the canon. As much as I want this it isn't going to happen. So All I want is a decent Film. Disney can't even deliver that. Their plot is fine but ther charachter development and some more critical small details and lore a Star Wars fans would get are utterly lacking. I'm not saying you are or are not a fan. "Raw Powaaa!" Isn't a excuse for their failings in Ep 7 and Ep 7 plot line for the trilogy was salvageable... Ep 8 forget it. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Cheif Operations Director

[razark]

7 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I hate this line of thought.

Hate it or not, it's how Star Wars has always worked.  It's a work of fiction, not a hard science that applies strict laws.

 

7 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

As Yoda would say...

It doesn't matter what Yoda would say.  He does not exist, therefore his words hold no more authority than any other character.  Yoda would say whatever the present writer would have him say.  In the same way, Rey exists in the same way, the way the writer wishes that she exists.

Spock said that the needs of the many many outweigh the needs of the few.  Later, Kirk said that the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.  How do you reconcile that logical contradiction?

Edited January 4, 2018 by razark

[Cheif Operations Director]

5 minutes ago, razark said:

Hate it or not, it's how Star Wars has always worked.  It's a work of fiction, not a hard science that applies strict laws.

 

It doesn't matter what Yoda would say.  He does not exist.  Yoda would say whatever the present writer would have him say.

Read my complete post

Ep 8 could be about how Rey was trained in Luke's academy. And survived the raid. Luke wiped her memory and left her in exile to keep her and him safe. This would comply with the force vision in Ep 7. And fill and many crucial details. Not that much in the film would have changed... I would still want a explanation for her power but it would be angering to fans not make their heads into a H-Bomb

11 minutes ago, razark said:

Hate it or not, it's how Star Wars has always worked.  It's a work of fiction, not a hard science that applies strict laws.

 

It doesn't matter what Yoda would say.  He does not exist.  Yoda would say whatever the present writer would have him say.

Thoughts?

[razark]

2 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Read my complete post

Take a deep breath, and realize that it's all fiction, and it serves nothing but what the writer wants it to serve.

 

In Star Trek: TOS, Klingons have smooth foreheads.  In later movies and series, they are very wrinkled.  This applies to even the Star Trek: Enterprise series, which takes place before TOS, but was written after TNG.  How can this possibly be?  This makes no sense in the chronology!

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, razark said:

Take a deep breath, and realize that it's all fiction, and it serves nothing but what the writer wants it to serve.

 

In Star Trek: TOS, Klingons have smooth foreheads.  In later movies and series, they are very wrinkled.  This applies to even the Star Trek: Enterprise series, which takes place before TOS, but was written after TNG.  How can this possibly be?  This makes no sense in the chronology!

I know nothing about Star Trek but ok. That's a problem that I would be mad about.

Yes I can be what the writers want but what is Disneys motivation Money or Star Wars. It should be Both. Not bakupting Star Wars and not Having a lack of lore problem. A few lines and a flash back could have fixed all of the problems with Rey that are unforgivable. But they HAD to go with the nobody turned Hero CLASSIC Disney thing.

[razark]

18 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Ep 8 could be about how Rey was trained in Luke's academy. And survived the raid. Luke wiped her memory and left her in exile to keep her and him safe. This would comply with the force vision in Ep 7. And fill and many crucial details. Not that much in the film would have changed... I would still want a explanation for her power but it would be angering to fans not make their heads into a H-Bomb

Thoughts?

Thought 1: You change what you post as I reply. This forum system is not always sane.  The gin is probably not helping.

Thought 2: Episode 8 could have been about many things, but it's not.  It's about what the write wrote.  When you have multiple writers writing a series, it's going to wander around.  Star Wars always has, and likely always will.  Wishing that it were different doesn't change that.  As for angering fans, it doesn't matter.  No matter what happens in a film, some fan is going to be mad about it and disagree with the direction things are being taken.  Again, that's up to the writer.  If you think you have a better story, contact Disney and make your case.

 

8 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

A few lines and a flash back could have fixed all of the problems with Rey that are unforgivable.

How do you know that this is not something that will appear in Episode 9?

Edited January 4, 2018 by razark

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, razark said:

Thought 1: You change what you post as I reply.

Thought 2: Episode 8 could have been about many things, but it's not.  It's about what the write wrote.  When you have multiple writers writing a series, it's going to wander around.  Star Wars always has, and likely always will.  Wishing that it were different doesn't change that.  As for angering fans, it doesn't matter.  No matter what happens in a film, some fan is going to be mad about it and disagree with the direction things are being taken.  Again, that's up to the writer.  If you think you have a better story, contact Disney and make your case.

Yes it doesn't matter we evil ridiculous Die Hard Star Wars Fans don't matter... we just mad our theory's got dismissed... right it's our fault... Until the franklins are not making it into the safe then they want our feed back. He is my point you know EA. They are hated for wanting nothing but your money. I would feel more sad if Iden Versio is killed than if Rey is killed. The fact in my opinion a Shady Money Theft company can make a better charachter arc with more emotion than DISNEY who has the backing of a The most successful franchise in cinema history... that's the problem. I know what Happens to Versio if you want to know. That scene was more emotional than Finns suicide run. 

This isn't your run down film from the new film maker it's STAR WARS. 

[razark]

19 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I would feel more sad if Iden Versio is killed than if Rey is killed.

You shot who in the what, now?  I have no idea what you're talking about. 
I pretty much know the canon movies and the Zahn trilogy.

 

19 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Yes it doesn't matter we evil ridiculous Die Hard Star Wars Fans don't matter...

You know, I grew up on 4, 5, and 6.  I found Episodes 1, 2, and 3 utterly ridiculous, and was very severely disappointed by them.  That didn't stop anyone from making money off of them(, and it sure as hell didn't stop them from being canon no matter how silly some of the ideas introduced were).  That's pretty much been the point since the beginning.  The fans have never mattered more than the dollars that come out of their wallets.

 

I would have much preferred if they had filmed the Zahn storyline, but they didn't.  I am not thrilled with 7 and 8.  In fact, I'm pretty much the only one in my circle of friends that says 8 was a bad film, and that I am not a fan of the direction they took the characters, among other things.

But 8 is 8, and that's what we have now.  And no matter what you think should have happened, the Star Wars we have is the Star Wars that is.

Edited January 4, 2018 by razark

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, razark said:

You shot who in the what, now?  I have no idea what you're talking about. 
I pretty much know the cannon movies and the Zahn trilogy.

 

You know, I grew up on 4, 5, and 6.  I found Episodes 1, 2, and 3 utterly ridiculous, and was very severely disappointed by them.  That didn't stop anyone from making money off of them(, and it sure as hell didn't stop them from being canon no matter how silly some of the ideas introduced were).  That's pretty much been the point since the beginning.  The fans have never mattered more than the dollars that come out of their wallets.

 

I would have much preferred if they had filmed the Zahn storyline, but they didn't.  I am not thrilled with 7 and 8.  In fact, I'm pretty much the only one in my circle of friends that says 8 was a bad film, and that I am not a fan of the direction they took the characters, among other things.

But 8 is 8, and that's what we have now.  And no matter what you think should have happened, the Star Wars we have is the Star Wars that is.

Iden Versio is the main charachter in Battlefront IIs Campaign. 

[razark]

1 minute ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Iden Versio is the main charachter in Battlefront IIs Campaign. 

The most recent Star Wars game I played was probably Star Wars: Rebellion.

 

Just curious, if you're willing to answer, as it may help me to understand your viewpoint: How old are you/How long have you been into Star Wars?

[Cheif Operations Director]

4 minutes ago, razark said:

The most recent Star Wars game I played was probably Star Wars: Rebellion.

 

Just curious, if you're willing to answer, as it may help me to understand your viewpoint: How old are you/How long have you been into Star Wars?

I former I shall not give details on but I've been into Star Wars for more than 3/4 of my life. 

Give or take a few decimal points

Go onto YouTube and watch campaign cutscenes you get the idea for the charachter

I've been my current form of fandom for 1/2

Let's just say when people change the laws of the universe of Star Wars so durasitcally I'm not going to be happy about it I.e. Ep 7 and Ep 8 and "Raw Powaa"

[razark]

2 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I former I shall not give details on but I've been into Star Wars for more than 3/4 of my life.

Seriously, that doesn't give me any data points to work with.  I could honestly say the same thing, and I was around to see Empire in the theater.

[DDE]

48 minutes ago, razark said:

Take a deep breath, and realize that it's all fiction, and it serves nothing but what the writer wants it to serve.

Narrative laws and the limitations of the suspension of disbelief still apply to it, though. And that’s how we can tell apart excrement-quality writing from non-excrement-quality writing.

[Cheif Operations Director]

I wasn't Their is see the originals be released

I'm not old enough to have seen 4-6 in theaters

 

 

only if we got this

[razark]

1 minute ago, DDE said:

Narrative laws and the limitations of the suspension of disbelief still apply to it, though. And that’s how we can tell apart excrement-quality writing from non-excrement-quality writing.

Oh, I quite agree.  But that doesn't change that the person in charge is the person in charge, and that their vision is the one that prevails.  If that person chooses a direction we don't like, we're either stuck with that choice or we can completely divorce our acceptance of the story from the canon that builds upon that it.  We can only hope that a later person will make better choices.

But when all is said and done, the canon is still the canon, and it is at the whim of the current writer.

[kerbiloid]

15 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

She just needed training and Disney gave us none. Why does Rey get to be more powerful than anyone else in all of Star Wars. Imagine Rey when she is trained. She could implode a small moon... This would be fine if she was the chosen one BUT SHE ISNT she is a nobody charachter who is Force sensitive. That level of force sensitivity is reserved for special force weilders like Bendu, Anakin, and the Mortis Charachters of SWCW. Bendu is pretty much a rock so... I would throw Luke in their too but he is he son of the chosen one so it's understandable. I want a reason we got none! I wanted her just to be trained! Nope. I'm only asking for a scene in the force awakens showing her training or something she just can't self teach! Come on. Why now why wasn't she born during the Republic Era. If she is so powerful why wasn't she the chosen one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart#Family_and_childhood

Quote

These early pieces, K. 1–5, were recorded in the Nannerl Notenbuch. There is some scholarly debate about whether Mozart was four or five years old when he created his first musical compositions, though there is little doubt that Mozart composed his first three pieces of music within a few weeks of each other: K. 1a, 1b, and 1c.^[11]

In his early years, Wolfgang's father was his only teacher. Along with music, he taught his children languages and academic subjects.^[12] Solomon notes that, while Leopold was a devoted teacher to his children, there is evidence that Mozart was keen to progress beyond what he was taught.^[12] His first ink-spattered composition and his precocious efforts with the violin were of his own initiative, and came as a surprise to Leopold,^[13] who eventually gave up composing when his son's musical talents became evident.

By whom the very first Jedi was trained?

Who choses the "chosens"? Does the Force know about their choice? Does it care?

How does the Force "hold the galaxies together" or so (s01e04 The New Hope) without training?

 

5 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

You need SOME, AND REALLY  ALOT OF TRAINING to duel with a lightsaber

Unless you don't do this yourself, but let the force (whatever it is) to possess your mind and body, and the duel result doesn't really depend on the fighter's skills.

Say, maybe Rey had no idea about all those forces-horses and just was deliriously bashing with the lightstick, in euphoria, with empty mind, while the force was guiding her hands.

6 hours ago, razark said:

Whatever happens is completely and utterly what the (current) writer wants to happen.  No further explanations is needed.

Regardless of SW i would disagree. A fantasy can has to accept fantasy assumptions, but they would be logically based, not just appear from nothing.
Stones can fly on a planet of flying stones (though this doesn't need a real physics description).

Spoiler

5 hours ago, razark said:

In Star Trek: TOS, Klingons have smooth foreheads.  In later movies and series, they are very wrinkled. 

This is not a complete list of health problems of those who had some deals with Enterprise. Heart, stomach and virility were affected, too.

 

6 hours ago, razark said:

It doesn't matter what Yoda would say. 

+1. Yoda is just a mortal, all what he says is only his opinion and interpretation. He doesn't have a schoolbook with answers.

 

Spoiler

P.S.
I like Van(essa) Helsing better than Van Helsing.

 

[DDE]

14 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

By whom the very first Jedi was trained?

Here we have only the old canon to work on. But one suspects that the first several generations worked on spiritual revelation and experiments.

14 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Who choses the "chosens"? Does the Force know about their choice? Does it care?

Again, in the old canon, Anakin is a Sith manipulation. His 'chosen' status comes from a prophecy, not the Force itself. Until TFA, the Force was not shown to have agency outside of Kenobi's pre-Expanded Universe quotes.

14 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

How does the Force "hold the galaxies together" or so (s01e04 The New Hope) without training?

It's an iteration of vitalism. Where life exists, the Force does.

15 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Unless you don't do this yourself, but let the force (whatever it is) to possess your mind and body, and the duel result doesn't really depend on the fighter's skills.

That would be inconsistent with everything seen prior. They're not fatalists, and they spend too much time on physical training if it's all about receptability to the Force and miracles.

Plus, it would absolutely ruin the Sith. Their whole shtick is to bend the Force to their will. If you need to abandon agency, the Sith won't work.

...Unless we're looking at a new iteration of the Force.

15 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Say, maybe Rey had no idea about all those forces-horses and just was deliriously bashing with the lightstick, in euphoria, with empty mind, while the force was guiding her hands.

Sadly, this is entirely consistent with the 'avatar of the Force' interpretation.

Those are some huge training wheels. 

[kerbiloid]

3 minutes ago, DDE said:

the first several generations worked on spiritual revelation and experiments.

So, the "force" is just their interpretation of their spiritual/practical experience, not given to them as is.

5 minutes ago, DDE said:

28 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Unless you don't do this yourself, but let the force (whatever it is) to possess your mind and body, and the duel result doesn't really depend on the fighter's skills.

That would be inconsistent with everything seen prior.

Would it? Let's see.

Anakin. A country/suburban slaveboy. Not educated, not trained, having some experience in mechanics.
Luke. A farmers' family country boy. Not educated, not trained, having some experience in mechanics.
Rey. A scrap rat. Not educated, not trained, having some experience in mechanics. Experienced in junk sorting.

Yoda. We know nothing about his race and his origin, but unlikely he is a PhD.

So, we can see a :

• the less a candidate knows,
• the less his/her mind is corrupted by education and knowledge,
• the closer he/she is to nature

- the easier the force supports him/her.

While high-ranked and educated ones spend decades, training.

Spoiler

Btw, an ideal candidate. Knows nothing, can bash with sword