Can software cause hardware damage through overheating? (Split from: Kerbal Space Program 1.10.1 is live!)

[Serenity]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

I would play KSP if it didn't have a negative impact on the performance of my PC. I'm sure my PC would be much faster and less worn out had I never booted KSP. Unfortunately, the architecture of the game is very old and is probably beyond repair at this point.

There are games out there that are far worse for your pc, especially battle royale games, those destroy the cpu's.(Anyone played the old Anno 1404? that one literally destroyed your cpu)

Kerbal is fine, its not an easy game to run but it will not worn out your pc very much.

2 hours ago, dok_377 said:

And yet there's still "somehow" not a single mod to fix broken fuel transfer. And no fixes for numerous other "features", for that matter. Good try, but no. You can't fix hardcoded stuff with a simple MM patch, that job is on the developers. 

I also dislike the idea of having to download 20 mods to fix my game....at some point my cpu will cry.

Check HansAcker's post like a page before.

Its a  good easy temporal fix until the patch comes....hopefully soon.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Boyster

[jost]

1 hour ago, Boyster said:

There are games out there that are far worse for your pc, especially battle royale games, those destroy the cpu's.(Anyone played the old Anno 1404? that one literally destroyed your cpu)

How? Im playing it via GOG and now I'm worried about my notebook

[dave1904]

5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

I would play KSP if it didn't have a negative impact on the performance of my PC. I'm sure my PC would be much faster and less worn out had I never booted KSP. Unfortunately, the architecture of the game is very old and is probably beyond repair at this point.

You do not wear out the performance of your PC by playing KSP. You damage it by not cooling it enough. It would also not be faster if you did not play KSP. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by dave1904

[MechBFP]

6 hours ago, steve_v said:

A great many "non-trivial" software projects manage relatively bug-free releases, just not this one

Hahahahaha. No they don’t, you just don’t see them. They have done a good job of keeping the bugs to the outliers, so you think it’s a bug free release in your particular use cases, but it most certainly is not a relatively bug free release. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by MechBFP

[Dr. Kerbal]

KSP enhanced Edition 1.10 is not going to KSP! The update file won’t come and I’m worrried. So I updated my PS4 to the most recent version and still KSP won’t update to 1.10. I’m on 1.2 when Menuvers where introduced. Is there something wrong with the PS4 or is there a problem with the file. And I heard other people on Reddit didn’t get it either. This is a major concern for the KSP Enhanced Edtion for PS4 (at least) please tell us the solution as soon as possible!

Please!

Edited September 16, 2020 by Dr. Kerbal
Help!

[steve_v]

8 hours ago, Boyster said:

those destroy the cpu's

8 hours ago, Boyster said:

worn out your pc

6 hours ago, jost said:

worried about my notebook

Games don't damage hardware, or any other application for that matter. Nor do CPUs "wear out" on any relevant timescale.
If software causes your hardware to overheat, the problem is inadequate cooling.

 

 

[Serenity]

2 hours ago, steve_v said:

Games don't damage hardware, or any other application for that matter. Nor do CPUs "wear out" on any relevant timescale.
If software causes your hardware to overheat, the problem is inadequate cooling.

So a game, not talking about Kerbal, badly programmed that bottlenecks your cpu and makes your pc freeze and hard crash every few minutes doesnt wear out your hardware?

And talking about ''old'' games not trying to play a next gen game ultra graphics in an medium pc.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Boyster

[steve_v]

2 hours ago, Boyster said:

badly programmed that bottlenecks your cpu and makes your pc freeze and hard crash every few minutes doesnt wear out your hardware?

If your system crashes under load, there's something wrong with it...That something is likely insufficient cooling or unstable power delivery, and those are hardware faults, it has nothing to do with any game.
Applications merely utilise the resources the system makes available to them, if the machine can't actually sustain that level of performance without crashing, the machine is the problem.

Running at excessive temperatures may indeed reduce the life of components, so if your system runs hot under load you might want to investigate why the cooling system is not doing it's job.

[Serenity]

4 minutes ago, steve_v said:

If your system crashes under load, there's something wrong with it...That something is likely insufficient cooling or unstable power delivery, and those are hardware faults, it has nothing to do with any game.
Applications merely utilise the resources the system makes available to them, if the machine can't actually sustain that level of performance without crashing, the machine is the problem.

I do not have the energy to explain how wrong is this.

Dude bad programming can cause resource leaks and can over stress any hardware no matter the cooling and yes, it can cause hardware damage in the long run.

I am done with this since its getting way too off topic but i gotta say i am surprised you gonna stick with it....well...each to his own i guess.

[steve_v]

4 minutes ago, Boyster said:

Dude bad programming can cause resource leaks

Sure. Not disputed.
 

4 minutes ago, Boyster said:

can over stress any hardware no matter the cooling

Perhaps you would like to explain how all those overclockers and system builders are able to run stress tests, applications specifically designed to use all available resources, for hours or days on end without "over stressing" the hardware then?
How is it the machine on my desk, which runs at 100% CPU usage (folding) whenever I'm not using it, somehow managed not only to never crash but also to run near-continuously at full load for some 7 years now? Magic?
 

5 minutes ago, Boyster said:

can cause hardware damage in the long run

Heat can cause hardware damage. Heat that is not being removed by the cooling system whose only job is to do exactly that.

Applications can only request the system to do work for them. If the system is busy, they have to wait, this is why slow machines are slow. The system is in control of what gets done and when, if it promises more than it can deliver it's not the fault of the application for asking.

 

20 minutes ago, Boyster said:

i am surprised you gonna stick with it

A background in electrical engineering, 25 years building and administering PC based systems, and a reasonable physics education will do that to you...

 

[Deddly]

This is actually a really good discussion, and by the way, @steve_vis right - computers have built-in systems designed to measure the heat of various components, adjust fan speeds and to even throttle CPU/GPU if needed, all to keep things running at a safe temperature. If KSP or any other software requires a lot of system resources and the system allows it to have everything it wants, resulting in something overheating and breaking, it is because these systems that are supposed to protect your machine are not working properly.

A comparison could be using a hammer: If you hit a nail and the head of the hammer breaks off and lodges itself in your eye, it's not because the wood is too hard or because the nail is too big, and it's not because your eye is too soft - it's becsuse there was a weakness in the shaft. Something wrong with the hammer. 

As I said, this is a great discussion, if anyone would like to continue it, I'll be happy to split this off into its own thread to avoid derailing the release thread. Just let me know. 

[steve_v]

8 minutes ago, Deddly said:

if anyone would like to continue it

I'm done here.
TBF I probably shouldn't have let myself get sucked into this old argument to begin with, it's one of those myths that get regurgitated in "gamer" circles fairly regularly and it seems to yank my chain every time.
KSP may have 99 problems, but damaging hardware isn't one of them.

[Serenity]

7 hours ago, Deddly said:

As I said, this is a great discussion, if anyone would like to continue it, I'll be happy to split this off into its own thread to avoid derailing the release thread. Just let me know. 

That would be cool, i am happy to hear more on this, although i do think at this point we are playing around with words and meanings.

6 hours ago, steve_v said:

I'm done here.
TBF I probably shouldn't have let myself get sucked into this old argument to begin with, it's one of those myths that get regurgitated in "gamer" circles fairly regularly and it seems to yank my chain every time.
KSP may have 99 problems, but damaging hardware isn't one of them.

Making a bad software, again not talking about Kerbal, that stresses your pc will increase the points of failures.

When you make a product you never, ever have for certainty that it will be perfectly user-maintained.

There are so many users and so many devices out there.

Many people just dont pay enough attention to the device health and some devices are just not well made or just not strong enough to handle some things(red ring consoles etc).

Things go wrong sometimes, maybe you missed some thermal paste, maybe the pre build didnt have a good enough power supply.

It might be not much damage but it will still be some, it might not be the single cause but it will still be part of the overall decline of your device.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Boyster

[steve_v]

18 minutes ago, Boyster said:

red ring consoles

Hardware problem.

18 minutes ago, Boyster said:

you missed some thermal paste

Hardware problem.

18 minutes ago, Boyster said:

the pre build didnt have a good power supply

Hardware problem.
 

Still not seeing what this has to do with games or any other application, and as I said, I'm done arguing about it. If you want to continue believing that your shoddy or ill-maintained hardware dying on you is somehow the fault of a game developer, you're welcome <snip>

Edited September 17, 2020 by Deddly

[Deddly]

Split to new thread. Great to get this out there and clear up some common misconceptions. But, as always, keep it polite and don't make it personal. 

@Boyster, what you are talking about is a piece of software being resource intensive. That is completely normal and that in itself does not cause any harm. Any damage that actually happens is caused by the hardware and the systems that control it failing to reduce temperature as they should do. This cannot be blamed on the software you are running. 

If part of the machine gets too hot, your system should increase the speed of the cooling fan. If that doesn't help enough, the system should reduce the GPU or CPU clock speed. If even that doesn't work, the device was either extremely badly designed or the vents and innards of your machine are clogged with dust. Note that none of the above are the fault of the software you are running. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Deddly

[Serenity]

30 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Still not seeing what this has to do with games or any other application, and as I said, I'm done arguing about it. If you want to continue believing that your shoddy or ill-maintained hardware dying on you is somehow the fault of a game developer, you're welcome <snip>

I apologize for being a bit rude, i get passionate some times for random things.

19 minutes ago, Deddly said:

what you are talking about is a piece of software being resource intensive. That is completely normal and that in itself does not cause any harm. Any damage that actually happens is caused by the hardware and the systems that control it failing to reduce temperature as they should do. This cannot be blamed on the software you are running. 

But that software was designed for certain hardware and its bind by its capabilities and the possibilities of being badly maintained or overused or just you know Minimum Requirements.

It should not push the limits by default or reach its limits....i am so fuzzy how i cant get my point across.

So you are saying a car company should not care if its cars get too hot in southern countries as long they run good enough in northern countries.

How does that even make sense, how can you design a product that surpasses its platform limits and exceeds safety precautions?

Edited September 17, 2020 by Boyster

[Deddly]

I have personal experience with this. I used to have a Dell XPS M2010, an absolute brute of a "laptop" with a 20" screen and I absolutely loved it. Unfortunately, these devices were known to destroy their GPU because of insufficient cooling. I had no trouble until I played Minecraft, which of course required a relatively high amount of GPU and CPU power. More power means more heat, and my GPU died. I replaced it, and even that one died while playing Minecraft. I baked both GPUs in the oven (carefully) and got them working again, both later died again while playing Minecraft. 

Now, where was the problem? Was it Minecraft? Of course not - the hardware was there to use, why should Minecraft not use it to increase performance? The problem was the poor design of the cooling system over the GPU. 

Can a game kill a GPU? No. A game can use a GPU, which might die if it isn't sufficiently cooled, which is a hardware design issue. 

8 minutes ago, Boyster said:

How does that even make sense, how can you design a product that surpasses its platform limits and exceeds safety precautions?

That's the point - you can't. Software is only able to utilise the power that the hardware allows it to use, unless we're talking about some hardware-hacking exploit, which might be a different story. 

8 minutes ago, Boyster said:

So you are saying a car company should not care if its cars get hot in southern countries as long they run good in northern countries.

A real life example of this is the original Nissan Leaf. Their batteries are known to degrade in hot climates because they don't have adequate cooling. This is Nisan's fault, it is a hardware issue. 

[Serenity]

 ''Software is only able to utilise the power that the hardware allows it to use''

Is that statement true?

Cant software demand more than what hardware allows and cause problems?

Is that not the definition of a blue screen back in the day?

6 minutes ago, Deddly said:

A real life example of this is the original Nissan Leaf. Their batteries are known to degrade in hot climates because they don't have adequate cooling. This is Nisan's fault, it is a hardware issue. 

Its an analogy, Nisan batteries are the software that is not adequately made for ''hot'' hardware...

6 minutes ago, Deddly said:

Now, where was the problem? Was it Minecraft? Of course not - the hardware was there to use, why should Minecraft not use it to increase performance? The problem was the poor design of the cooling system over the GPU. 

Yes its a problem of Minecraft as well.

It should have the capability to diagnose your system and refuse to run or shutdown if it detects overstress.

Check BeamNG it stops the simulation of physics if it detects instability with the program or your hardware.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Boyster

[Lisias]

In a nutshell: NO.

Overheating can damage the computer, but it is not caused by software. It is caused by problems on the cooling system or by simple bad design of the cooling system.

The cooling system of your computer is like the cooling system of a car: if the car overheats, it's due bad maintenance or because the manufacturer screwed up.

There's a lot of notebooks and mini-pcs dying by overheat lately and the reason is only one: bad design. But since it's cheaper to blame the software to cover up engineering mishaps, this urban legend persists - "let's save some bucks by convincing the customer that he installed a bad software, instead of paying ourselves for our mistakes".

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Lisias
better phrasing.

[Deddly]

1 minute ago, Boyster said:

 ''Software is only able to utilise the power that the hardware allows it to use''

Is that statement true?

Well, let's think about that. If your CPU is rated at 3 GHz and you're playing a game that wants to run at 60 FPS but your hardware isn't powerful enough to do that, what speed will your CPU run at? 

 

Spoiler

If you answered "3 GHz", you would be correct. Your CPU cannot run at 4 GHz just because the game wants some more FPS, it simply can't run faster than its clock speed. 

 

[Serenity]

9 minutes ago, Lisias said:

In a nutshell: NO.

Overheating can damage the computer, but it is not caused by software. It is caused by problems on the cooling system or by simple bad design of the cooling system.

The cooling system of your computer is like the cooling system of a car: if the car overheats, it's due bad maintenance or because the manufacturer screwed up.

There's a lot of notebooks and mini-pcs dying by overheat lately and the reason is only one: bad design. But since it's cheaper to blame the software to cover up engineering mishaps, this urban legend persists - "let's save some bucks by convincing the customer that he installed a bad software, instead of paying for our mistakes".

 

Let me ask you this, what if you took that software and made an exemplary job of re writing it in a much lighter and better version.

Would that program still cause overheat in the same badly designed device?

8 minutes ago, Deddly said:

Well, let's think about that. If your CPU is rated at 3 GHz and you're playing a game that wants to run at 60 FPS but your hardware isn't powerful enough to do that, what speed will your CPU run at? 

Ok fair enough, still, i do believe that badly made software ignore or fail to follow the hardware limits and demand more than what the device can offer.

So in a way, yes as you said before, its a form of ''hacking'' and bypassing some things it should not, your system tries to run in a way that it shouldnt by design.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Boyster

[Lisias]

26 minutes ago, Boyster said:

 ''Software is only able to utilise the power that the hardware allows it to use''

Is that statement true?

Yes. It's impossible to software demand more than the hardware can withhold, as much it's impossible to you to drive your car faster than the engine can drive the wheels.

Of course you can use nitro on the fuel and make the engine runs faster - but that would damage the engine.

It's the same with the overclocking - yes, you can overclock the computer to make software runs faster, but this will eventually damage the computer. (and not the software).

If your computer dies while playing some demanding game, there's only two possibilities:

1) You didn't cleaned up the cooling system, and so it could not cool the computer as needed. It's the same of letting your car's radiator without collant.

2) The manufacturer lied to you, selling a computer that was not designed to sustainably cool the CPU it shoved on the motherboard. It's like someone selling you a car with 12 cylinder engine but with a radiator made for a 4 cylinders engine. The car will break.

 

26 minutes ago, Boyster said:

Cant software demand more than what hardware allows and cause problems?

Impossible. If the hardware can't sustain the load without melting, it's a hardware problem, not software.

 

26 minutes ago, Boyster said:

Is that not the definition of a blue screen back in the day?

Nope. The BSOD happens due two different and unrelated problems:

1) A bug of the software that leaded the kernel to a crash. You fix the software, the problem ends.

2) A hardware problem that leaded the kernel to a crash. You need to fix the hardware.

 

36 minutes ago, Boyster said:

So you are saying a car company should not care if its cars get too hot in southern countries as long they run good enough in northern countries.

Essentially what happened here in Brazil with the Fiat Tipo Sedicivalvole from Italy.

Some rubber tubes that worked perfectly on Italy just melted on Brazil's summer and the car catched fire on the garage after being used, because with the engine off the cooling system that was keeping the rubbers in an acceptable temperature ceased to work, and the rubber tubes melted leaking inflammable fluids on the hot engine.

And yes, Fiat had to make a recall here to fix the problem, because the car was imported and sold by Fiat itself.

When a properly maintained and unchanged car overheats, it's always manufacture's fault.

Computers are the same. It's up to the manufacturer to assure the computer operates on acceptable thermal parameters (as long you maintain it clean as the manufacturer says, and does not change anything on the hardware). If an unchanged and well cared computer overheats, it's the manufacturer's fault.

 

11 minutes ago, Boyster said:

Let me ask you this, what if you took that software and made an exemplary job of re writing it in a much lighter and better version.

Would that program still cause overheat in the same badly designed device?

yes. Because a much lighter and better version of the software will be able to do more things at the same CPU speed. The CPU will still be running at it's (designed) max speed - unless the software artificially drags its feet on the processing.

You can always run slower with your car if it overheats, right? But it will still be broken.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Lisias
Tyops!

[Deddly]

12 minutes ago, Boyster said:

Ok fair enough, still, i do believe that badly made software ignore or fail to follow the hardware limits and demand more than what the device can offer.

So in a way, yes as you said before, its a form of ''hacking'' and bypassing some things it should not, your system tries to run in a way that it shouldnt by design.

Not at all, to be able to directly hit the hardware is extremely good and difficult programming, if it is even possible to do these days, and would also require the user to disable antivirus software and protections that all modern systems have built in.

No software can ignore hardware limits - software cannot make a 3 GHz CPU run at 4 GHz (unless we're talking about overclocking, which would be a deliberate and seperate action done by the user with a dedicated program, the game can't do that). Software can only use up to the maximum power you have available for it. To claim otherwise would be the same as saying that you can make a 500 GB hard drive into a 1TB one through software, which is quite clearly not possible. 

[Serenity]

Hmmm, you guys make a lot of sense, i aint gonna lie i feel my opinion on this matter weaken in every reply.

I kinda, i kinda still want to stand by my logic.

That is easier/more meaningful to control the software effectiveness and quality than try to improve the hardware.

So for me it makes more sense to make the software treat the hardware better than the other way.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Boyster

[Deddly]

1 hour ago, Boyster said:

So for me it makes more sense to make the software treat the hardware better than the other way.

For sure it would be possible for software to deliberately limit performance. In fact, KSP offers this