[1.9.1-1.10.1] Kiwi Tech Tree Overhaul 1.3.0 (17 December 2020)

[hemeac]

@Kwebib, thanks will use these as references!

@vardicd, I think the general discussion a few pages back was about 50-70% for science.  What is yours set at?  My last Kerbalism career was about 70% with DMagic installed and a number of part mods and didn't have any major issues getting to the Mun/Minmus.  The community tech tree with parts in all nodes works out to be about 175k points, but those are loaded a lot into the later nodes.

[vardicd]

1 hour ago, hemeac said:

@vardicd, I think the general discussion a few pages back was about 50-70% for science.  What is yours set at?  My last Kerbalism career was about 70% with DMagic installed and a number of part mods and didn't have any major issues getting to the Mun/Minmus.  The community tech tree with parts in all nodes works out to be about 175k points, but those are loaded a lot into the later nodes.

My science multiplier is set at 30% of normal, I think. so not much at all. all the tech trees I've tried before cost so little I've always cranked it down to about that, and still got more science than what I knew to do with. I still haven't made orbit yet in my current career, but my OCD 100% completionist science collection tendencies on Kerbin, and a whole lot of airplane autopilot means I'm already queuing up some of the 80 cost science nodes to unlock, once my KCT gets to them, but I don't know how much more I'll be pulling out of Kerbin before heading to Mun/Minmus. I'm not sure if I've set it too low, or if I've still got it set too high, what with the science experiments added to the game by Dmagic, Scansat, and Angel's wild blue constellation of mods.

[WLLP]

@vardicdIf you are looking for early science boost the Sounding rockets from rover dude should help with that.

@hemeacYeah I guess I'm going to do a kerbalisum save now. Thank goodness for Ckan

Edited January 13, 2021 by WLLP

[vardicd]

1 hour ago, WLLP said:

@vardicdIf you are looking for early science boost the Sounding rockets from rover dude should help with that.

Yeah I know of a few other mods that add science gathering boosts, my issue is trying to balance what I've already got. I want to set my science gain multiplier so that I can unlock the whole tree, but I don't want to be able to do it just from Kerbin, Mun, Minmus, and Duna. I want to make it challenge me to go to lots of places. It's not necessarily about adding more, or removing science from my install, just finding the right balance for me, with what I've already got.

[WLLP]

27 minutes ago, vardicd said:

Yeah I know of a few other mods that add science gathering boosts, my issue is trying to balance what I've already got. I want to set my science gain multiplier so that I can unlock the whole tree, but I don't want to be able to do it just from Kerbin, Mun, Minmus, and Duna. I want to make it challenge me to go to lots of places. It's not necessarily about adding more, or removing science from my install, just finding the right balance for me, with what I've already got.

Yeah I feel that. It’s a hard balance to find. If you find it let me know! I think I might do 50% for this play through I’ve been setting up. But then I’m not quite as ocd about getting all of the science. We’ll see I guess.

[WLLP]

I’ve been getting warning about Xeon gas not being found or something. Anyone know what this is about?

Also I know this probably isn’t related to this mod particularly but I am also having some trouble with the Rational Resorce Parts throwing B9 duplicate modules errors for nuclear engines. If anyone has any idea how that might be happening and how to fix it please let me know. It’s possibly the last big I need to sort out before I play.

Edited January 13, 2021 by WLLP
Added more info

[Beetlecat]

17 hours ago, vardicd said:

I just realized that I need over 130,000 science points to unlock every node in this science tree with all the mods I have installed. I have no idea how that compares to stock or other trees, but it seems like a lot, and makes me fear that I've turned down my science gain a bit too much.

there are many games where you have to make choices about what skills/powers to unlock... Maybe this tech tree went there? 

Also--aren't there science generating features or equipment like labs?

[DeadJohn]

16 minutes ago, WLLP said:

I’ve been getting warning about Xeon gas not being found or something. Anyone know what this is about?

Also I know this probably isn’t related to this mod particularly but I am also having some trouble with the Rational Resorce Parts throwing B9 duplicate modules errors for nuclear engines. If anyone has any idea how that might be happening and how to fix it please let me know. It’s possibly the last big I need to sort out before I play.

I had a similar issue. Refer to my post in this thread from January 7 and replies from others. I was getting log errors about Xenon but it was really a bigger issue from mod conflicts. For me, removing these mods made things much better:

• Kerbal Research & Development (KRnD): This mod was rescued by Linuxgurugamer. It has architectural conflicts with part switchers and Tetrix, and fixing it is infeasible.
• B9 Aerospace Procedural Wings
• FAR: This may not have been a Tetrix-related issue, but FAR just wasn't working well for me. I got rid of it at the same time as those other 2 mods.

Surprisingly, I still have Configurable Containers loaded and that doesn't seem to be causing any gameplay issues with Tetrix.

Post your log, or at least a list of all your mods.

[Kwebib]

@vardicd Maybe a good reason to actually use a science strategy at the admin building?

[vardicd]

2 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

there are many games where you have to make choices about what skills/powers to unlock... Maybe this tech tree went there? 

Also--aren't there science generating features or equipment like labs?

1 hour ago, Kwebib said:

@vardicd Maybe a good reason to actually use a science strategy at the admin building?

Possibly, I'm still learning the tree, also just for clarity sake, I wasn't complaining about this, just commenting about the cost because I was surprised it was so high. 

[hemeac]

@vardicd, let me know if you do get stuck in the tree at 30% what number you settle on, that may be good to have a section in my OP that talks about difficulty levels.

@WLLP, if you are able to post your log, I can take a look to see what may be the issue.  Do you know what version of Rational Resources Parts you are using?

[vardicd]

@hemeac I just had my first outing with the Cosmocat experiment from the KNES mod, and I'm curious if you've paid attention to that particular experiment? Cosmocat returns 2.40 science per biome on the ground, 5.60 science flying, which on paper is the same as the material bay, 2.40 per biome on the ground, 5.60 science flying. [per my science return settings] but the material bay is 1 and done. It doesn't matter what biome you're over. Cosmocat, returns that science value for every single biome you fly over. I feel like the fact that it returns so much more science over a stock experiment like that means it should be another tier up the research tree, but maybe that's just me. I thought I'd throw it out there and see what you and everyone else thinks. I will probably end up tweaking it on my end to be one node higher, but if you and everyone else is happy with it, then there's no problem with that either.

Edited January 16, 2021 by vardicd

[hemeac]

@vardicd, thanks, for the 2.0 update, I had knocked the base level down to 12 from 20 (these are all before the science multipliers and world multipliers).  Thanks for the note on the biome, I've reduced the biomeMask so it should only have biome specific science when landed and splashed, so that will be consistent with the Material  Bay, but have a lower base science which is at 20.  Tech level will likely stay about the same tier from there as thought that it should simulate animals going into space prior to Kerbals.

@Spaceman.Spiff I've added the RCS upgrades to the 2.0 tree.  Decided to go with a Hydrogen Peroxide/Hydrazine/Hypergolic progression to be consistent with Clamp's RCS switch in his Hypergolic mod.  Given that Hydrogen Peroxide was used on the X1, I thought it would made sense to have that as the starting RCS fuel.  If you have Rational Resources, you can also get all of the 8 cold gas options  which  will include Nitrogen, but I have that option disabled  by default as not sure everyone will want 11 fuel mixes to choose between for their RCS.

[vardicd]

2 minutes ago, hemeac said:

@vardicd, thanks, for the 2.0 update, I had knocked the base level down to 12 from 20 (these are all before the science multipliers and world multipliers).  Thanks for the note on the biome, I've reduced the biomeMask so it should only have biome specific science when landed and splashed, so that will be consistent with the Material  Bay, but have a lower base science which is at 20.  Tech level will likely stay about the same tier from there as thought that it should simulate animals going into space prior to Kerbals.

Oh, well, yeah if you can turn down the science rewards, then it would feel right to keep it in the node it's in. I don't have the know how to adjust those values, so my only option was to push it up the tree. 

[hemeac]

@vardicd, if you want to change it in your current game, here's a patch:

@EXPERIMENT_DEFINITION:HAS[#id[CosmoCat]]:NEEDS[!FeatureScience,Knes]:FINAL
{
    @baseValue = 12
    @scienceCap = 12
    @dataScale = 2
    @situationMask = 63
    @biomeMask = 3
}

 

 

[Kwebib]

Did you mean to put heatshield1 in Battery Tech? Seems like it should go in Enhanced Survivability or even Basic Science (heatshield0 is in Science 201).

[flart]

Difference between the short fuel tank and the long fuel tank is only about a parts count in a vessel (long tank = several short tank), and appearance (long tank could be prettier than several short tank). 
The parts count is important for gameplay only in the early career, before passing 30-parts limit, later is just about your PC spec.

So, I believe spacing fuel tanks by length in the tech tree make sense in the early career for the 0.625m or 1.25m, 
and larger tanks of the same size could be in 1 or 2 nodes, but not in 4 nodes as 2.5m now.

Now on Tier 6 I already have smallest Near Future 5.0m tank, and can build large 5.0m rockets, but I still have not get the Jumbo.

Edited January 17, 2021 by flart

[Spaceman.Spiff]

4 hours ago, hemeac said:

I've added the RCS upgrades to the 2.0 tree.  Decided to go with a Hydrogen Peroxide/Hydrazine/Hypergolic progression to be consistent with Clamp's RCS switch in his Hypergolic mod.  Given that Hydrogen Peroxide was used on the X1, I thought it would made sense to have that as the starting RCS fuel.  If you have Rational Resources, you can also get all of the 8 cold gas options  which  will include Nitrogen, but I have that option disabled  by default as not sure everyone will want 11 fuel mixes to choose between for their RCS.

Sounds good! 
Im going without Nitrogen Cold Gas, because I like my ore how I like my Nuclear Salt Water Rockets; Overpowered. 

Jokes aside I’m happy that all that’s implemented, and I think  you made the right choice. 
Also, eleven fuel mixes? How!?!?(maybe better for the RR thread)
 

[hemeac]

There's 8 + MonoPropellant in RR.  Am guessing that Jade's argument is that many of the gasses can come from ISRU chains and those could vary across different planets so wanted to give players flexibility.  He also only had a select parts that had cold gas thrusters whereas I am patching all RCS thrusters.  Think it is easier have more selections when only on a subset of parts.

[hemeac]

On 1/16/2021 at 11:44 PM, Kwebib said:

Did you mean to put heatshield1 in Battery Tech? Seems like it should go in Enhanced Survivability or even Basic Science (heatshield0 is in Science 201).

@Kwebib, sorry missed this post yesterday.  In the 1.0+ branch, it was intentional as the thermal tech line follows along Basic Science/Electrics branch before separating.  The general of thumb for the naming conventions of tech nodes is that they are representative of types of things that you can see in the branch, not necessarily what is exactly in that node as I feel that can be compromise on playability.  However, the 2.0 branch has moved the thermal branch so it will probably fall within Enhanced Survivability in the next big update. 

@flart, I agree on the fuel tank length.  My plan for the 2.0 update will to have the length of fuel tanks come over around 3 tiers as opposed to the current five.  I'll be doing a bit of play testing on that point.

[InfamousAsHell]

@hemeac So I figured out how to make module manager patches and it turns out everything seems to work fine with Heisenberg Airships if you change Atmosphere to IntakeAtm so thats nice. This is the patch i made that seems to work.

Spoiler

// Patch to change Atmosphere to IntakeAtm

@PART[hl10GyroRing]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceConverter]:HAS[#ConverterName[Compressor]]
    {
        @INPUT_RESOURCE:HAS[#ResourceName[Atmosphere]]
        {
            @ResourceName = IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[hl10NuclearGyro]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
        @checkForOxygen = false
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceConverter]:HAS[#ConverterName[Compressor]]
    {
        @INPUT_RESOURCE:HAS[#ResourceName[Atmosphere]]
        {
            @ResourceName = IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBIDuctedFan]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]  
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBIHugeDuctedFan]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]  
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBILargeDuctedFan]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]  
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBILargeElectricPart]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]  
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBIMiniElectricProp]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]  
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBISmallElectricPart]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Heisenberg]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]:HAS[#resourceName[Atmosphere]]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]  
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

Buffalo also has Atmosphere consuming engines which also work fine when changed to IntakeAtm.

Spoiler

// Patch to change Atmosphere to IntakeAtm

@PART[WBI_JetWing]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Buffalo]
{

    @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    +MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAir
        @checkForOxygen = true
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[#engineID[Monopropellant]]
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleRCS]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[WBIResourceSwitcher]
    {
        -resourcesToKeep = ElectricCharge;Atmosphere;IntakeAir
        resourcesToKeep = ElectricCharge;IntakeAtm;IntakeAir
    }

    @MODULE[WBIMultiEngineHover]
    {
        @primaryEngineIntake = IntakeAtm
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBI_MicroJetEngine]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Buffalo]
{
   
   @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    +MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAir
        @checkForOxygen = true
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[#engineID[Monopropellant]]
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @MODULE[WBIMultiEngineHover]
    {
        @primaryEngineIntake = IntakeAtm
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBITiltRotor]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Buffalo]
{
   
   @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

@PART[WBITiltRotor2]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ProfileDefault,WildBlueIndustries/Buffalo]
{
   
   @MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
    {
        @resourceName = IntakeAtm
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]
    {
        @PROPELLANT[Atmosphere]  
        {
            @name =  IntakeAtm
        }
    }

    @RESOURCE[Atmosphere]  
    {
        @name =  IntakeAtm
    }

}

Pathfinder's LASSO scoops also use Atmosphere but I'm not sure how those actually work outside of very slowly. Also, Rational Resources seems to make it so they don't function as aero scoops anyways.

[hemeac]

@InfamousAsHell, that's awesome, always really nice when MM patches do what you would like to do.  Were they running into issues because another mod removes the Atmosphere resource?

I'm also finishing up a bug patch for the 1.3 release that should be out in the next day or two, just trying to knock out a couple of things on my to-do list.  If anyone has any comments on bugs or balance issues that you would like me to consider let me know as soon as possible as this is likely the last update before the 2.0 update.  I won't be addressing 1.11 compatibility in the 1.3 update as there isn't enough mod support yet, particularly ReStock.

One of the bug fixes coming is fixing a scenario where a B9 Part Switch is accidentally added to Kerbals if a mod adds ElectricCharge to them (if you happen to know what mod does this, would appreciate you letting me know).  I'll show rather than explain what happens in this scenario.  Thanks @WLLP for reporting the issue.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by hemeac

[InfamousAsHell]

@hemeacSo without the patch, when Heisenberg and Buffalo is installed with Kerbalism, their electric engines are impossibly power hungry (like +100000 EC/s) and anything that uses Atmosphere reduces your Nitrogen duration noticeably. As for the LASSO scoops, Rational Resources seems to cull the distribution of any resource not in the CRP like Atmosphere so they can't be used as Aero scoops but testing the 1.25m LASSO in the water gave extraction rates in days so I dunno how its balanced.

[WLLP]

That makes sense I didn’t install the airship mod, because it’s listed as incompatible. The Kerblisum wiki mentioned it was due to Atmo. Once it’s balanced out I might add it in. I have the Buffalo and a bunch of other wild blue mods so it would be nice to have the full set :p

[flart]

LGG Kerballoon beta b9ps upgrades didn't show up in the tech tree.

  I manually removed the node requirement in the Kerballoon, so it works on my side, but you could check it out.