totm june 2021 Working Underwater.

[An Amongus Sussy Player]

@ColdJ noice
can i help with uhh waterfall plume effects for nuclear powered water engine (basically a nerv that uses water) i can help with other stuff too you know  

Edited April 24, 2021 by Weak Player

[Stone Blue]

I'm sure you all know that Angel-125 is working on an underwater mod... and that JadeOfMaar, IIRC, has released a mod that I think deals with underwater resources & stuff, in preparation & support of it... If you havent, you may want to go take a look at them, especially

I suggest poking it, and seeing if it does some of the same stuff you all are trying to do. Or, mebbe you can use the cfgs/patches as examples/templates to work from?

Edited April 24, 2021 by Stone Blue

[Hohmannson]

50 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

stick it in the

In the intake, it's for the intake part. Choice of resource is yours.

[ColdJ]

8 minutes ago, Weak Player said:

@ColdJ noice
can i help with uhh waterfall plume effects for nuclear powered water engine (basically a nerv that uses water) i can help with other stuff too you know  

Anything you can do is appreciated. If you look up a bit higher I gave configs  for Intakes, thrusters, and an engine for decent Large fuel tank bodied subs.

 

2 minutes ago, Hohmannson said:

In the intake, it's for the intake part. Choice of resource is yours.

@Hohmannson Thank you very much.

7 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

I'm sure you all know that Angel-125 is working on an underwater mod... and that JadeOfMaar, IIRC, has released a mod that I think deals with underwater resources & stuff, in preparation & support of it... If you havent, you may want to go take a look at them, especially

I suggest poking it, and seeing if it does some of the same stuff you all are trying to do. Or, mebbe you can use the cfgs/patches as examples/templates to work from?

I have skimmed it before I will go more in depth. I didn't like the overcomplication of crushing depth pressures.

Thanks for your help in everything. I am using imgur all the time.

Edited April 24, 2021 by ColdJ

[ColdJ]

https://kerbalx.com/ColdJ/APC-Mini-Wall-Hugger-KX

@Weak Player You seem to like challanges so why don't you download my APC wallhugger and climb vertically up the building of your choice. Warning, overhangs take practive so maybe start with white wall either side of the orange door side of the VAB. I have climbed everything but the flagpole, and I do mean every structure that comes in stock KSP.

@Stone Blue I read it again. I really don't like global MM patches. I have had plenty of problems with them. I also put things on Kerbal X. The number of times I have downloaded a craft I thought was compatible, only to find it has all these MM added modules that make it unloadable by me. Individual  parts are far less trouble. After disabling patches from BD and Mechjeb I had over 2000 less patches that needed to be uploaded by MM.

Edited April 24, 2021 by ColdJ

[JadeOfMaar]

Howdy,  @ColdJ. To clarify, RationalHydroDynamics doesn't add any modules. There is no plugin.  There's absolutely no need to be concerned about parts and craft files getting things that can become invalidated by players who are missing some mod, and no need to be concerned about this mod causing conflicts with anything expect possibly plugin mods that also affect part buoyancy, so it's actually very friendly to the purist or minimal modder audiences. It only changes 2 existing stock parameters, whch shouldn't even appear in craft files. It only declares the implicit and already present buoyancy and pressure rating keys and changes their values. The pressure thing is entirely optional and I explicitly wrote that you're encouraged to delete the pressure patch if you're sensitive to MM bloat and you don't use part pressure limits, so please reconsider. It could be quite helpful to your project. Lastly, I'm also pretty antsy about mods that do global patches so I try to design my patches so that they don't potentially preclude patches from other mods that may want to adjust what my patches do. But there's no escaping the fact that a matter like buoyancy will affect all parts and will warrant the use of global patches.

[ColdJ]

13 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Howdy,  @ColdJ. To clarify, RationalHydroDynamics doesn't add any modules. There is no plugin.  There's absolutely no need to be concerned about parts and craft files getting things that can become invalidated by players who are missing some mod, and no need to be concerned about this mod causing conflicts with anything expect possibly plugin mods that also affect part buoyancy, so it's actually very friendly to the purist or minimal modder audiences. It only changes 2 existing stock parameters, whch shouldn't even appear in craft files. It only declares the implicit and already present buoyancy and pressure rating keys and changes their values. The pressure thing is entirely optional and I explicitly wrote that you're encouraged to delete the pressure patch if you're sensitive to MM bloat and you don't use part pressure limits, so please reconsider. It could be quite helpful to your project. Lastly, I'm also pretty antsy about mods that do global patches so I try to design my patches so that they don't potentially preclude patches from other mods that may want to adjust what my patches do. But there's no escaping the fact that a matter like buoyancy will affect all parts and will warrant the use of global patches.

Thanks for contacting me. My question is does it affect all stock parts or just those you choose?

With the ballast system we are using 1 or two tanks, depending on the type of underwater craft you are building, that is all that is required to overcome buoyancy. The tanks use the generator module to create ballast. A resource that we define for it's density. So large tanks use a resource that is a ton per unit.  I have also created small to micro tanks for my Underwater RCS chair. That are only 10 kg per unit. If you are not into Tweakscale you can have different size tanks that you choose for the job. Or if you do use Tweakscale you can have only 2 tanks that scale to your needs. I actually had to add buoyancy to the version of the external command chair I created for the under water RCS. I also managed to crack having the Kerbals having a separate ballast resource on them that they can fill or purge to walk around on the bottom or to become neutrally buoyant. Which made me very happy. I had used a more primitive version to walk around at the deepest point in the ocean.

So if your mod provides a UI in game to individually adjust buoyancy per part and work out how much is needed to become neutral, then I am all for it.

I am just not comfortable having all parts reconfigured.

More than happy to have your insights and any thing you can do to help. This is an open, free thinking space for those who would like to work in and under the water. If one day it becomes a parts mod or config pack that's fine. But if all that happens is we swap configs so we can all have the experience then that is fine too.

[Stone Blue]

When I posted to look at Rational Hydrodynamucs, I didnt mean you *should* try to copy its methodology, or anything. Even if its not a direction you want to head in, or use it, or interact with it, I guess another point i didnt state, was, if you want to actually publish something of the magnitutde you are talking, its still good practice to now about mods that deal with subject matter you're delving into. That way you can get ideas from them, decide to support/interact with them, or even to know what NOT to do like them.

I mainly mentioned Rat. Hydro., becuase I know Jade's work... I havent even looked at the mod yet, but I'd be fairly certain he defines specific resources, units, and how they get used, all in a balanced manner, regarding "aquatic/oceanic" "stuff"...and I would be very surprised, if there were not a "Ballast" resource defined in there, already... vOv

I think I read that you all want to define a "ballast" resource. Thats good... just, if you define it similar to what RH does, or in a similar way that another mod(s) may do, thats where mods end up interfering with, and stepping on each others toes. Thats prolly the main reason Community Resource Pac was created.

Now, I'm not saying any direction you want to go in is good or nad, just that its good to know what others do/do not do.
You dont want to be *that mod*, that causes issues for other mods, because you lone wolf it, when theres already a way for several mods to not do that...

Again, I like what you are all talking about, and woring on, and I'm not trying to say do it one way, or another... Just saying it might be good to now how the community has avoided stepping on each other, and worked out generally accepted practices... MM also helps HUGELY in that department.

Also, keep in mind, putting MM patches directly into, or globally changings things in *your* part cfgs, may in effect cause the very issue you mentioned, about not liking global changes from mods. Its always easier to enable/disable a single MM patch from one mod, that may have a hundred seperate patches in it, than to enable/disable 100 MM patches strewn throighout 100 seperate part.cfgs

Anyway, thats just my 2 cents... Keep going with the good ideas...

Edited April 24, 2021 by Stone Blue

[ColdJ]

Hi @Stone Blue as you have most likely read the response I wrote to JadeOfMar. You would see that when you wrote.

Also, keep in mind, putting MM patches directly into, or globally changings things in *your* part cfgs, may in effect cause the very issue you mentioned, about not liking global changes from mods. Its always easier to enable/disable a single MM patch from one mod, that may have a hundred seperate patches in it, than to enable/disable 100 MM patches strewn throighout 100 seperate part.cfgs

That you were touching on the very point I was making. I have seen mods that happily "Take Over" with a global MM patch, putting themselves on every model you make. I had downloaded a mod once that had small lights to put on your craft. What I didn't know at the time was that it globally patched every light type to have coloured lenses. When I removed the mod, I had to go through every craft I had ever built with mk1s or mk2s and clear them of the module left in the craft files. So what I am doing here is simply configing up new parts using available meshes. Except for the Kerbal EVA as that is something only Angel-125's SCUBA mod can do through a special part as far as I am aware. If someone offers to make up original meshes to go with the configs that would be wonderful, as I don't have the means. But the point is new parts that stand on their own and make it possible to use all the standard stuff you get with KSP for underwater use without a single patch being needed. Nothing to conflict with any other mod. I happily put the names of the resources out for everyone to read and I have the "Community Resources" pack. No conflict has turned up on my game with the names I have used. Here is what I have named, if you find a conflict with a resource name from somebodies mod please tell me and I will change them. The first is actually the resource that came with the Leviathan carrier mod and was used by the mod for ballast (it's what set me down this path) and that is "Liquid" in no way changed from the way that mod had it configured. Then "IntakeWater" ,"EVA Ballast", "IonSteam". That is all I have created and need for things to work.

When I joined the forum about a week ago, I came here trying to find answers on how to do things, because no search engine was ever very good at turning up something useful. But people have experience and you can ask them questions. I was actually hoping that someone else had already done this stuff and that I could be directed to the right mod. I certainly didn't expect to have a week of little sleep as I created things that I had assumed some bright spark had already done.

So to reiterate. No patches needed, no need to conflict with mods that really creative people have come up with. Just parts that let you play in the sand box in a new way.

[Stone Blue]

Kewl

Actually, another point I didnt make, was, if someone has already created the wheel, why try to recreate it yourself?

But yeah, sounds lie you've already put some thought into it... so keep doing what youre doing... I think theres some experienced modders already aware of what youre doing, and prolly keeping an eye to how it comes out, and if they see potential issues with other mods or anything, or mebbe have suggestions about how to go about something, hopefully they'll speak up with advice...

[ColdJ]

Always appreciated. and hey, if they want to do all the work so I can sit back and just enjoy the finished product. Then YAY. I haven't built a realistic jet for a week now and I am getting depressed about it. @Stone Blue

Edited April 24, 2021 by ColdJ

[ColdJ]

So, when one has achieved the goals they set out to do. What should one do with their new found freedoms?

Also if you have got your ballast tanks , thrusters and underwater engines made. Then make a small swift sub and and go racing. It feels like you are in a STAR WARS movie. Cause obviously flying in water feels different from air. Try it at night and see how well you can skim the bottom without crashing.

Enjoy.

[Caerfinon]

14 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

It feels like you are in a STAR WARS movie

So... we can expect a nautical version of a Pod Racer on KerbalX?

[ColdJ]

Just now, Caerfinon said:

So... we can expect a nautical version of a Pod Racer on KerbalX?

That is an idea. I haven't done much with funky undulating craft, but with the fuel lines I reckon it might be Possible.

1 minute ago, ColdJ said:

That is an idea. I haven't done much with funky undulating craft, but with the fuel lines I reckon it might be Possible.

of course on kerbal x you can't put the modded stuff yet, so you would have to do it stock and then swap in the parts you have made once downloaded.

[JadeOfMaar]

7 hours ago, ColdJ said:

Thanks for contacting me. My question is does it affect all stock parts or just those you choose?

With the ballast system we are using 1 or two tanks, depending on the type of underwater craft you are building, that is all that is required to overcome buoyancy. The tanks use the generator module to create ballast. A resource that we define for it's density. So large tanks use a resource that is a ton per unit.  I have also created small to micro tanks for my Underwater RCS chair. That are only 10 kg per unit. If you are not into Tweakscale you can have different size tanks that you choose for the job. Or if you do use Tweakscale you can have only 2 tanks that scale to your needs. I actually had to add buoyancy to the version of the external command chair I created for the under water RCS. I also managed to crack having the Kerbals having a separate ballast resource on them that they can fill or purge to walk around on the bottom or to become neutrally buoyant. Which made me very happy. I had used a more primitive version to walk around at the deepest point in the ocean.

So if your mod provides a UI in game to individually adjust buoyancy per part and work out how much is needed to become neutral, then I am all for it.

It affects all parts. Stock or mod. I created my mod to escape from the ineffective or incomplete tactic of defining a super heavy resource and creating or modifying tanks to hold it. How this tactic fails/Why I call it ineffective are:

• While the specialized tanks may sink easily, the rest of the ship will refuse to sink, with all its might.
• Buoyancy force will react very strongly against the massive tank trying to push itself down with its great weight. The likely result is either the heavy tanks will lose and fail to do their job, or they will break themselves off and sink, leaving the ship to float.

I cannot make plugin mods so I cannot create a UI for anything. However, Angel-125 has a Ballast system in his rover mod already, which affects the buoyancy of the whole ship, and iirc, without having to patch parts. (but its effect might only be restricted to his rover parts). He has a ballast system in the works along with his new and discrete undersea mod, Sunk Works. The golden feature is that you simply attach a ballast vent to a tank and that tank changes over to become a ballast tank. Then you can have it participate in trim, dive, rise etc through the UI.

4 hours ago, ColdJ said:

Also, keep in mind, putting MM patches directly into, or globally changings things in *your* part cfgs, may in effect cause the very issue you mentioned, about not liking global changes from mods. Its always easier to enable/disable a single MM patch from one mod, that may have a hundred seperate patches in it, than to enable/disable 100 MM patches strewn throighout 100 seperate part.cfgs

Rational HydroDynamics actually is one patch. (As far as this subject is concerned.)

4 hours ago, ColdJ said:

That you were touching on the very point I was making. I have seen mods that happily "Take Over" with a global MM patch, putting themselves on every model you make. I had downloaded a mod once that had small lights to put on your craft. What I didn't know at the time was that it globally patched every light type to have coloured lenses. When I removed the mod, I had to go through every craft I had ever built with mk1s or mk2s and clear them of the module left in the craft files. So what I am doing here is simply configing up new parts using available meshes. Except for the Kerbal EVA as that is something only Angel-125's SCUBA mod can do through a special part as far as I am aware. If someone offers to make up original meshes to go with the configs that would be wonderful, as I don't have the means. But the point is new parts that stand on their own and make it possible to use all the standard stuff you get with KSP for underwater use without a single patch being needed.

For the liberties that I would expect out of a ballast and submersible mod, I would rather that most parts had some variety of buoyancy or just less than maximum buoyancy. As things are, my design options for undersea vessels would remain restricted to using whatever custom tanks, and nothing that's visually appealing to me for hulls, and not even getting the guarantee that my design would sink. (Which may just be my problem alone as mostly my designs involve very large spaceplane parts.) I'm hoping that Sunk Works remedies that, actually.

Experience tells me to always and fully expect that all parts will have some foreign module planted into them by some highly popular mod that I like, as that's a fact of life with mods. Chances are good that Angel's mod won't do this, so I'll be waiting with eagerness to see if it does or doesn't....Now if there was a mod that could prune invalid modules from craft files, that would be very handy. This isn't a huge bother to me, nonetheless, it's a bother and I do relate. As someone who is always picking at configs and either plotting something new or running regular maintenance on the new thing, I can completely relate with you in that lights mod situation.

My mod does not add any modules so there's nothing "left behind" if you try it out and then remove it.

4 hours ago, ColdJ said:

So to reiterate. No patches needed, no need to conflict with mods that really creative people have come up with. Just parts that let you play in the sand box in a new way.

For mods that try to deliver ballast and submarine experience without relying on plugins, I created Rational HydroDynamics entirely to help them out and to add fuel to players' creative flames. Its intent is not at all to create any conflict, but to help mods like yours by doing something that I see as vital, supplementary and different, and that no one has thought to try. And by targeting something that's usually cleanly ignored, the chances of conflict are (or should be) much lower. (I know that the extreme opposite can happen.) I'm quite okay with you escaping involvements with patches. That's normal for self-contained parts mods. For those who don't like my mod at all or how it does things, that's no problem. I'm not bothered and I don't seek to be a bother.

4 hours ago, ColdJ said:

When I joined the forum about a week ago, I came here trying to find answers on how to do things, because no search engine was ever very good at turning up something useful. But people have experience and you can ask them questions. I was actually hoping that someone else had already done this stuff and that I could be directed to the right mod. I certainly didn't expect to have a week of little sleep as I created things that I had assumed some bright spark had already done.

Heh. Well, ask away. I've seen a handful of mods that do and don't use plugins to try to do what you're out to do, but they always use the same tactic (as described in the top of my replies). Sadly, the lack of undersea gameplay mods is due to this very important situation: KSP is firstly a game about building rockets, going to space and planting flags. That's what nearly everyone who's drawn to KSP will end up doing. Oceans are lacking in physics and features since they're far from the grand idea of the game. Stock mechanics for ocean gameplay are next-to-none, and nearly no one who can make mods to turn things around will choose to do so. But I'm helping to stir a movement to turn that around, and I believe Sunk Works is a powerful catalyst.

5 hours ago, Stone Blue said:

I mainly mentioned Rat. Hydro., becuase I know Jade's work... I havent even looked at the mod yet, but I'd be fairly certain he defines specific resources, units, and how they get used, all in a balanced manner, regarding "aquatic/oceanic" "stuff"...and I would be very surprised, if there were not a "Ballast" resource defined in there, already... vOv

There's absolutely nothing in there concerning resources and modules. The mod does exactly one simple job. It makes parts less floaty based on some criteria. (Two jobs if you count part pressure limits, which is out of the scope of this chat.) Be surprised.

[ColdJ]

Hi @JadeOfMaar. Your obviously intelligent and articulate and a kindred spirit. The reason a free and open forum brings results is because human beings of intelligence may all approach the same problem from a different angle. I fully appreciate the method you have chosen. The thing is if I wanted to build a submarine, a boat, a plane, or a rocket with the same part, then having the underlying characteristics of that part changed, just for use as a submarine part, takes away from the other uses. I have made seaplanes. If I change the buoyancy of parts then the seaplane might sink rather than float when I land. KSP physics does not understand that if you trap air in a hollow space then you are more buoyant. (Quick aside: I watched a Youtube vid of one of the prolific youtube KSP builders. He put several fuel tanks in a cargo bay. Cargo bay doors open, all the fuel tanks kept buoyancy. Cargo bay closed. Fuel tanks still weighed down the craft the same but lost their buoyancy characteristic. He had used this principle to have a sinkable underwater base.) I freely admit that the first time I sank a heavy Sub I descended too fast, hit the bottom and the ballast tank snapped straight off. But I have the "NSI" parts pack, and a lot of their models are just reconfigs of standard parts, made bigger and stronger. so I went in to the config file, looked at what had been adjusted and added this into the ballast tank config.

    breakingForce = 5000
    breakingTorque = 5000

Since then I have never snapped a ballast tank off, and believe me I have had some serious crashes in a Nuclear Attack size Sub, when I have rushed descent while travelling at full throttle.

So any way, my way of approaching the problem has worked for me. All the players out there will choose whatever method they are comfortable with. We just give them the freedom to choose a method they like.

Me I am just happy that I am now able to build subs, have Kerbals EVA underwater and sink, rise or do neither as they work, and get in a chair that allows them to go in any direction, up, down, compass or slantwise. Just like Willy Wonka's glass elevator.

Keep up the great work and if you have new ideas or just want your patch to be seen by people to give them that option. Fell free to post in "Working Underwater "whenever you like. Giving people options is what this is all about.

[Hotel26]

My new, top-secret, Deep Blue internal propulsion unit for small to medium-draught submersibles.  It's completely silent underwater making it most difficult to detect.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Hotel26

[ColdJ]

Came to update my Kerbals exploration only to find that @Hotel26 had been having similar adventures and technological achievements.

So there had been talk in the Kerbal Archeology community that once Kerbin hadn't been as wet and that when, one really hot summer, had caused Ice Melt at the poles, The ocean had risen dramatically. Also that the first forays into space travel were at a site near the old air base and that the air base had actually been built up apon a small mountain. This led the community to believe that the original site was now submerged. So a pilot and a scientist went out to investigate in the latest fast explorer submarine.

Taking off from the KSC harbour.
 

Spoiler

 

 

The pilot decided to take it for spin.

Spoiler

But then they settled down to find what they were looking for.
 

Spoiler

 

 

They tried to set up the seismograph to take readings but had forgotten to read the manual. Then the scientist had a mishap, bumped his head and discovered that Kerbals lose all their mass while unconsious. Having woken up on the surface he headed all the way back down to take a selfie before heading home.

[ColdJ]

So I have passed this knowledge on to @Hotel26 in a personal message, now I am giving it to those who dare to dream of new horizons. As always make backups of your originals so if you get anything wrong you can revert. Also the amendments need to be done to both original and future kerbalEVA and match for this to work. If you have Breaking Ground. If you have Making History there is probably a Vintage version you have to amend.

I reset EVA Proppelant back to it's original 0 density state. and then added this resource. to the ResourcesGeneric.cfg

 

Spoiler

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = EVA Ballast
  displayName = EVA Ballast
  abbreviation = EB
  density = 0.010
  unitCost = 0
  hsp = 3000
  flowMode = NO_FLOW
  transfer = PUMP
  isTweakable = True
      RESOURCE_DRAIN_DEFINITION
      {
        isDrainable = false
        showDrainFX = false
      }
}

Then just below this entry in the kerbalEva.cfg

     RESOURCE
    {
        name = EVA Propellant
        amount = 5
        maxAmount = 5
        isTweakable = False
        isTweakable = False

    }

I added this.

Spoiler

    RESOURCE
    {
        name = EVA Ballast
        amount = 0
        maxAmount = 10
        isTweakable = True
    }

And then at the end of the kerbalEva.cfg above the end bracket I put in this.

Spoiler

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleGenerator
        isAlwaysActive = false
        activateGUIName = Fill Start
        shutdownGUIName = Fill Stop
        OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            name = EVA Ballast
            rate = 0.05
        }
    }
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleGenerator
        isAlwaysActive = false
        activateGUIName = Empty Start
        shutdownGUIName = Empty Stop
        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            name = EVA Ballast
            rate = 0.05
        }
    }
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleGenerator
        isAlwaysActive = false
        activateGUIName = Plunge Start
        shutdownGUIName = Plunge Stop
        OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            name = EVA Ballast
            rate = 0.5
        }
    }
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleGenerator
        isAlwaysActive = false
        activateGUIName = Purge Start
        shutdownGUIName = Purge Stop
        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            name = EVA Ballast
            rate = 0.5
        }
    }

And if you got all the kerbalEVA , kerbalEVAFuture and female variants. then they should have this.

Enjoy.

[ColdJ]

Thanks to a method of stacking different meshes within the same cfg file. Which I believe was originated by @Snark and passed on to me by @Hotel26. I am feeling very SCI FI,

[Hotel26]

Very nice job!!  Looks pretty stunning!

I'm guessing that is some kind of super-quiet, undetectable internal water-propelled propulsion unit and, uhm, that faint glow might indicate some radioactivity at work in that there super-classified engine?

They will never hear you coming until it's way too late!

[ColdJ]

5 minutes ago, Hotel26 said:

Very nice job!!  Looks pretty stunning!

I'm guessing that is some kind of super-quiet, undetectable internal water-propelled propulsion unit and, uhm, that faint glow might indicate some radioactivity at work in that there super-classified engine?

They will never hear you coming until it's way too late!

The Nuclear reactor heats the intake water into super heated and Ionised steam and then funnels it out the back. Just tinkering with it to bring the power down because at the moment by the time you are half way up the throttle you are travelling at 320m/s underwater. And though it is fun to shoot out of the water like those lovely old future sub movies and television shows. It was not meant to fly.

[Hotel26]

Mine flies...   why doesn't yours?

 

 

 

 

He heh.  Just ragging you...

[ColdJ]

Just now, Hotel26 said:

Mine flies...   why doesn't yours?

 

 

 

 

He heh.  Just ragging you...

Just ragging me huh. Oh it flies alright, way too well for a submarine. Thankfully I had adjusted the Atmosphere curve or else I would have been cooked when I went airbourne.

[Hotel26]

4 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

Oh it flies alright

The Supercharged-Submarine-To-Orbit Challenge...  ya know, all our fun is gonna stop when the Blender guys get here? 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Hotel26