The Elcano Challenge: Ground-Based Circumnavigation (4th)

[Ianwubby]

On 4/8/2023 at 10:39 PM, 18Watt said:

Do you need to do anything special to make your Kerbals stay on the ocean floor, to plant flags?  I'm a little surprised they don't float to the surface, which would of course be bad news since the rover is on the ocean floor!  Anyway, just curious if you need a mod, or if the stock game allows Kerbals to sink to the bottom if they exit a capsule while under water.

No mods! It's what @Nazalassa said; I have that inclined "ramp" of sorts above the hatch to prevent Jeb from rising to the surface. Swimming against the bottom of the incline makes him enter a walking state, where I can then "walk" down the ramp onto the seafloor. And once he's touching the seafloor, he can plant the flag

Edited April 10, 2023 by Ianwubby

[damerell]

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/146923-elcano-iv-circumnavigate-all-the-things/&do=findComment&comment=4270542

I'm around Vall. Just Laythe and Eeloo left.

 

[18Watt]

On 4/18/2023 at 8:08 PM, damerell said:

I'm around Vall.

Another fantastic mission report, congratulations to @damerell, who just completed a Vall circumnavigation!  And yes, you only have Laythe and Eeloo left!

[18Watt]

For those of you wondering if it's possible to do a circumnavigation in KSP2:  Yep, it is!  It's very painful right now, but it is doable.  Here's a run I did around Minmus.

Starting out:

Spoiler

Launch.  I'm not great with the color-picker utility, so pardon my paint job.

Approaching Minmus.  Encountered a bug where I was getting phantom forces in Orbit of Minmus, which was steadily pushing my ship towards the surface.  Ok, no problem, I wanted to land on Minmus anyway.

I had planned on landing in the middle of the flats area, but the phantom forces pushed me off course a little.

Landed, rover deployed.

Flag planted.  Unfortunately, you can't see flags from map view or from orbit.  So they are kinda useless right now.  Doesn't really matter at this point, because they seem to disappear as soon as you are out of physics range anyway.  Still, I felt obligated to plant a few flags.  Oh, make a note of the flag design in this photo.

And we're off!  I'm doing a roughly equatorial circumnavigation, headed westbound.  Minmus is much more lumpy in KSP2.

 

More shots from the drive:

Spoiler

I had some issues with the first rover, which I though I could improve on with this design.  So, I sent this replacement rover up, without a pilot.  I was planning on landing next to Bill, and having Bill jump into the new rover.  However, I ran into some problems.  First, I encountered the phantom forces in orbit of Minmus again, but still managed to land right next to Bill.  Or at least where Bill should have been.  When Bill was within physics range, he (and his rover) teleported through the surface, and fell into the void.  So this replacement mission did not work out well at all.  I was able to F9 and recover Bill and the original rover, but gave up on trying to get fancy with a replacement rover.

Back to the original rover.  It's holding up pretty well, I probably won't really need a replacement rover anyway.

Whoops.

There is a lot of impressive terrain in KSP2.  

Steep hills, many of which are steeper than 45 degrees.

I lost one of my ladders somehow.  Not going to F9 to get the ladder back, there's another one on the other side of the rover.

Back on our way, missing one ladder, but otherwise in pretty good shape.

Approaching a flats area.

 

More screenshots from the drive:

Spoiler

The flats aren't perfectly flat like they are in KSP1, but still flat enough to get some speed.

58 m/s!  This is great!

Stuck inside a rock.  It's not as painful as it looks, the rocks are evidently holograms.  Thank goodness..

A screenshot of typical hilly and lumpy terrain.

Another flats area.  I wonder if I can reach 60 m/s?

I did in fact hit 60 m/s.  It appears I will need to limit my speed to be safe however.

Next screenshot shows how the flats areas are not perfectly flat like they are in KSP1.

Planting another flag.  Anybody notice anything odd about the flag?  It's a completely different flag than the first one Bill planted.  I assumed when Bill grabbed a handful of flags that he would grab the all from the same bin.  I guess not, looks like Bill just grabbed a bunch of random flags.  Hmm.

The blue blip on the right side of Minmus is the rover, the darker blue blip on the left is where I left the lander, I think.  I think I'm over halfway around Minmus.

 

But wait, there's more!  (screenshots)

Spoiler

Those hills up ahead look really steep!

The slope is slightly steeper than 45 degrees.  I angled up the slope a little to get better traction.

Home stretch.  Rover is at the upper-right area of the flats, the lander is at the lower-left area of the flats.

Zipping across the flats.  I had a few explosions at 60 m/s, decided to keep it between 30-40 m/s.

Yes, this next shot is in the middle of the flats.  So if you're bringing a lander to Minmus in KSP2, you still want to be careful of your landing site, even in the flats.  Although they are 95% flat, so still a good place to aim for.

Finished!  Drove all the way around Minmus.

 

Here's a shot of Bill, who just drove all the way around Minmus.  He's ready to go home.  There is enough fuel in the lander to get back to Kerbin.  Sadly, the lander does not have any seats, nor does it have any parachutes.  Bill is out of luck for the moment.

[damerell]

Interesting to read, although I don't expect to be in KSP2 any time soon. I rather liked Minmus's flat flats, as if those bits of the planet had been liquid then frozen solid.

[Nazalassa]

So, it appears that there are several issues with the path I wanted to follow, and the rover I planned to use (the Kan-Kan). In case you forgot, here's the path:

Spoiler

First: the (southern) ice shelf is ~30m above the sea level, so I can't just come from the north, on the seabed, and get on the shelf. Actually, the path passes just east of a bit of land that I can use to get on the shelf. (problem solved)

Second: when I'll go from the shelf to the ocean for a short seabed trip (after going across it) the rover will fall 30m into the sea. Even with a parachute, the Kan-Kan kan't survive the fall (but the wheels did).

Third: apparently, the measured speed of the Kan-Kan on the seabed (of 7 m/s) was wrong, it actually goes around 1.7 m/s on flat terrain (at 1.2km deep) (not mentionning upwards slopes). At this speed I'm spending five days on the seabed :/

Spoiler

Science!

Fourth: I still tried to begin a circumnavigation on Kerbin, using the Kan-Kan. I had to reload four times to finally break 10km from KSC, not counting the eight or nine times Bob was knocked out of his seat. Turns out the Kan-Kan isn't suited for high-speed travel - but I want high speed travel. (it can't even get out of water on slopes - I tried... F9)

Spoiler

More Science!

So, back to the drawing board: I need a rover that travels faster than a snail, can go underwater at more than 2 m/s, resist bumps and jumps relatively well, and isn't prone to excessive "breakdancing" (I have footage of the Kan-Kan breakdancing in the hills).

 

Enter: the Kan-Kan II!

I drove it into water, made it turn around, and it successfully got out of the ocean. I used two engine plates to remove the drag from the service bays, which remove the drag of whatever's inside. So only the wheels are draggy. This significantly increased underwater performance! It also holds two Kerbals, instead of 1 for the Kan-Kan. 16 RTGs provide enough EC for the wheels, and I'll maybe add another pair of wheels - just for more speed.

And, last but not least, two weird facts that I discovered during tests:
The fact that only the wheels are exposed to drag (looks like the engine plates are shielding each other) is quite good: it seems that only parts that are not shielded will "splash down hard and be destroyed", so technically, I can throw the rover in the ocean, as long as the speed is low enough for the wheels to survive (<150 m/s) the entire rover will survive.
Additionally, it seems that shielded (in a fairing, or attached to an engine plate) service bays can't be opened - so I can't open the ones on the Kan-Kan II :(

[damerell]

I am around Laythe, which starts at https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/146923-elcano-iv-circumnavigate-all-the-things/&do=findComment&comment=4275537

Just Eeloo left, and perhaps the great white whale of RSS Earth.

[18Watt]

42 minutes ago, damerell said:

I am around Laythe

Two leaderboards updated!  Added to Laythe, as well as the Master Mariner leaderboard.  Congratulations!

 

[damerell]

Thanks. I did not imagine, when I set out to rove around Minmus eight years ago, the sheer scope of the challenge.

[RoninFrog]

So I've started a Kerbin Elcano with a brand new rover design.  I had a great time with my little one-wheeler on the Mun, so I decided to modify it to be Kerbin-rated.  Here is the new and improved version in the VAB.  Looks a little goofy, but boy does she haul butt.  I decided I'd go for a one-wheel, one-pontoon rover to keep things simple.

In water configuration:

Spoiler

I tested it up to 120 m/s on land and 75 m/s on water.

Here's the progress I made in about half an hour of driving:

Some more pictures:

Spoiler

Launch:

Here's a picture of the aerodynamics to show that the tailfin is generating downforce and is therefore legal:

Wheeeeeeee!

More whee:

Stopped for a flag:

The rover never pops tires (in my experience), and the only issue I've had is if I hit a slope at the wrong angle the rover does a high-speed face-plant and completely destroys itself.  I'm hopeful that I'll have more dedication to this run and actually finish a Kerbin elcano for once.

[Nazalassa]

The biggest issue with external seats is that Kerbals don't regain flags by sitting in them, so if you want to plant flags, you'll need to plant a few hundred of them near the launchpad/runway and get one of the Kerbals from the rover to pick them up, one by one. A rough estimation of the time it would take is one to two hundred flags per hour.

Here's Bob, ready to pick up 26 flags near the runway. These 26 flags were really a pain to plant.

@18Watt is editing the save file to give a Kerbal a lot of flags allowed, if all Kerbal onboard the rover are in external seats?

[king of nowhere]

I finished priax, will update the report in the weekend. I also already started tal, but it's quite small and won't take too long.

I also started tekto, it's something i've been wanting to do for a while; you can see from the picture why i like that place. actually, i've been wanting to fly around more on that moon, but when I had my OPM grand tour I couldn't because of a bug preventing the propellers from working

Also to get back what I missed, I decided to use the same vehicle I had - the spaceplane arrowhead. I quite liked it, my most effective spaceplane for general exploration.

however, as you can see from the picture below, there is a problem

tekto has a dense atmosphere, and a very low gravity. even at 20 m/s, I risk taking off by accident. I currently set the propellers to stay at 15 m/s - going a bit faster here because i'm downhill. I would like to go faster, and I would like to keep using arrowhead, but I also want to make an elcano, so no taking off.

would it be ok to use the cheat menu to increase gravity so I could go faster without flying? [ok, now that I read it, I don't think the answer is going to be yes, but asking anyway, can't hurt]

 

Also, I have by now circumnavigated most of the OPM planets, or am about to do it. Hale, ovok, slate, wal, polta, priax. tal and tekto coming. I'd only miss eeloo, thatmo, nissee, plock, karen to get them all.

If I circumnavigate all the OPM bodies, can I get an honorable mention as grand master navigator?

Edited May 4, 2023 by king of nowhere

[RoninFrog]

I finished a stock Tylo circumnavigation.  I don't think I have the pictures of the launch anymore, but here's the full rocket:

Journey:

Spoiler

Final flag ring:

[18Watt]

On 5/1/2023 at 7:59 PM, damerell said:

Thanks. I did not imagine, when I set out to rove around Minmus eight years ago, the sheer scope of the challenge.

Yeah, I noticed how far back your thread dates!  I will also say that there are many ways to complete the challenge.  You are doing it one of the hardest ways I can think of.

18 hours ago, RoninFrog said:

So I've started a Kerbin Elcano with a brand new rover design.

Welcome to the looney-bin @RoninFrog!

18 hours ago, RoninFrog said:

Looks a little goofy, but boy does she haul butt.

I like to describe my own ships and rovers thusly:  She may not be pretty, but she sure is ugly.  If it works, that's the important part, right?

14 hours ago, Nazalassa said:

@18Watt is editing the save file to give a Kerbal a lot of flags allowed, if all Kerbal onboard the rover are in external seats?

I'm going to rule that is just fine (allowed).  In (much) earlier versions of KSP that wasn't an issue.  Then again, in those versions they didn't have the lawn-chair seats either.  Anyway, that's fine.

I'd like to suggest an alternative, which I have found to be easier.  If there is a probe-core on the rover, you can access Kerb-Net, and drop an infinite amount of Kerb-Net markers.  The really small probe-core works just fine for this, as long as you have a connection to KSC.

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I finished priax,

Holy smokes!   I go to work for one day and y'all have so much for me to look at!  Which is awesome!  I'll get ya added for Priax soon!  Hoping some other players start doing some Elcanos on mod planets too!

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I also started tekto, it's something i've been wanting to do for a while; you can see from the picture why i like that place.

Indeed.  Yes, I also enjoy CBs with an atmosphere!

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

would it be ok to use the cheat menu to increase gravity so I could go faster without flying?

Gotta rule no on that one. 

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

If I circumnavigate all the OPM bodies, can I get an honorable mention as grand master navigator?

Yeah, let me think of something.  Perhaps adding another category for all the OPM planets.  That will maybe get me off my butt to start making some badges for mod planets.

4 hours ago, RoninFrog said:

I finished a stock Tylo circumnavigation.

I'll say it again:  I go to work for one single day, and y'all have all kinds of stuff I missed.  Way to go!

@RoninFrog, just for clarification, is your game 100% stock?  I don't see any obvious mods in your screenshots.

 

[Nazalassa]

4 hours ago, 18Watt said:

I'd like to suggest an alternative, which I have found to be easier.  If there is a probe-core on the rover, you can access Kerb-Net, and drop an infinite amount of Kerb-Net markers.  The really small probe-core works just fine for this, as long as you have a connection to KSC.

Would require some relays, no? A mothership won't be enough to ensure the rover is always connected to the KSC.
So, on one planet, I would certainly add a lot of relays. But if I plan to do the entire Kerbolar System... May be too long.

And apparently, Kerbnet is "offline" when the communication network is off (disabled in the settings). I will test it again, and see if it's still possible to place markers when it's offline.

[king of nowhere]

uploaded the priax circumnavigation.

there were a couple segments (of 8 and 3 km respectively) where I did take suborbital jumps to skip heavily bugged terrain, where my rover exploded without reason. technically against the rules, but it was a force majeure case.

[RoninFrog]

11 hours ago, 18Watt said:

@RoninFrog, just for clarification, is your game 100% stock?  I don't see any obvious mods in your screenshots.

No mods

[damerell]

18 hours ago, 18Watt said:

Yeah, I noticed how far back your thread dates!  I will also say that there are many ways to complete the challenge.  You are doing it one of the hardest ways I can think of.

I dunno, having Project Orion to shove my rovers around the system doesn't hurt.

On 5/4/2023 at 10:32 PM, king of nowhere said:

tekto has a dense atmosphere, and a very low gravity. even at 20 m/s, I risk taking off by accident. I currently set the propellers to stay at 15 m/s - going a bit faster here because i'm downhill. I would like to go faster, and I would like to keep using arrowhead, but I also want to make an elcano, so no taking off.

I'm not the rules kerbal, but in your spaceboots I would write a kOS script that immediately shuts off the propellors if I leave the ground. That would tend to make you be doing jumps, not powered flights.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, damerell said:

I dunno, having Project Orion to shove my rovers around the system doesn't hurt.

I'm not the rules kerbal, but in your spaceboots I would write a kOS script that immediately shuts off the propellors if I leave the ground. That would tend to make you be doing jumps, not powered flights.

I'd have no idea how to write a script in any case.

what i do is point the nose down if I leave the ground. this way i land quickly.

[18Watt]

7 hours ago, damerell said:

I'm not the rules kerbal, but in your spaceboots I would write a kOS script that immediately shuts off the propellors if I leave the ground. That would tend to make you be doing jumps, not powered flights.

Yep, this sounds like a good idea.  

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

what i do is point the nose down if I leave the ground. this way i land quickly.

The problem is that it's controllable in flight.  Not just the attitude, but also the trajectory.  So it's possible to do more extreme jumps, because you have the ability to soften the impact when you land.

This is why it's not allowed to use RCS thrust to control your attitude during jumps- the RCS can also be used to alter your trajectory enough to soften landings.  With SAS / Reaction Wheels you can control your attitude, but not your flight path.

@damerell has it correct- for a 'rover' which is capable of powered flight, you should really ensure that the propellers are not producing any thrust while you are airborne.  Outside of a KOS script (I have no idea how to do that) the easiest way I can think of is to hit the brakes ('B' button).  That'll stop the rotors, which produce almost no drag when stopped.

For short jumps, perhaps 100 m or less, I wouldn't mess with that though.  But if you're zooming off a large jump, and expect to go 0.5 km or more, probably need to stop the thrust while airborne.

For clarification, aero surfaces are allowed, including wings.  I rule that way because there aren't really any structures in KSP which aren't aero surfaces.  Almost every part in KSP will produce lift if you get it going fast enough.  You're just not allowed to produce thrust of any sort while airborne.  That becomes really important on low-gravity CBs like Minmus, Gilly, Bop, Pol.  With one or two RCS thrusters you could jump halfway around those bodies, and be able to control your vertical speed for a safe landing.

Sorry if the rules are getting vague.  Once again, aero surfaces are allowed, but the intention is no powered flight of any sort.  

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, 18Watt said:

Yep, this sounds like a good idea.  

The problem is that it's controllable in flight.  Not just the attitude, but also the trajectory.  So it's possible to do more extreme jumps, because you have the ability to soften the impact when you land.

This is why it's not allowed to use RCS thrust to control your attitude during jumps- the RCS can also be used to alter your trajectory enough to soften landings.  With SAS / Reaction Wheels you can control your attitude, but not your flight path.

 Almost every part in KSP will produce lift if you get it going fast enough.  You're just not allowed to produce thrust of any sort while airborne. 

I'm not allowed to soften landings? You got me worried there for a minute, because on priax I've needed to do that occasionally. when falling down a crater, I sometimes have to point the rockets downward and slow down. I did say it clearly in the report a few times, for example here

On 3/15/2023 at 4:26 PM, king of nowhere said:

Part 11: Introducing Priax

  Hide contents

 

 

Here I jumped inside a crater without realizing. And on Priax, they are deep. Had to use the rockets to slow down and survive

I may have done it a couple times on polta too, but I'm not sure.

But I assume those small uses are ok, and what is actually forbidden is taking suborbital jumps - which is a very different things.

Quote

That becomes really important on low-gravity CBs like Minmus, Gilly, Bop, Pol.  With one or two RCS thrusters you could jump halfway around those bodies, and be able to control your vertical speed for a safe landing.

actually, on gilly (and ovok and hale) you could use a quick rocket burst to accelerate while still touching the terrain, reach 10 m/s, that's enough to go all the way around the moonlet, but still slow enough to land on wheels. So one could circumnavigate it with a couple jumps while technically following the letter of the rules. Incidentally, I did manage quite a long suborbital jump on Ovok, where the terrain is very flat and you can pick up some speed despite the low gravity, but it was entirely wheel-powered.

 

By the way Tal requires quite frequent rocket use, for a kinda weird reasons; it's full of boulders, and those boulders have collision enabled. and the rover frequently jumps (low gravity), and it may land just on top of such a boulder. the boulder then hits the fuel tank, which is rather fragile. so in this case I have to give a quick rocket nudge to avoid the boulders. I have to do this maneuver once every few kilometers. again, I assume "use the rockets to make the jump 30 meters longer and avoid those boulders" is not against the spirit of the rules, just like "I fell down this deep crater, I'll use the rockets to slow down the fall".

4 hours ago, 18Watt said:

@damerell has it correct- for a 'rover' which is capable of powered flight, you should really ensure that the propellers are not producing any thrust while you are airborne.  Outside of a KOS script (I have no idea how to do that) the easiest way I can think of is to hit the brakes ('B' button).  That'll stop the rotors, which produce almost no drag when stopped.

For short jumps, perhaps 100 m or less, I wouldn't mess with that though.  But if you're zooming off a large jump, and expect to go 0.5 km or more, probably need to stop the thrust while airborne.

I point the nose down and land within a few seconds, so those jumps are in the 30-100 meters long, no problem. I'll try to remember that if I do happen to jump down from a high, steep cliff.

[damerell]

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/146923-elcano-iv-circumnavigate-all-the-things/&do=findComment&comment=4280712

I have circumnavigated all the things.

[18Watt]

Some fanfare is in order!  @damerell has joined a very short list.  Actually, several very short lists!

@damerell has completed Elcano runs on every stock celestial body in KSP.  

@damerell is one of only 6 players to achieve Grand Master status.

There are only 7 Master Navigators (Kerbin and Eve), and only 9 Master Mariners (Laythe and Kerbin by sea).  @damerell is on both those lists as well.

Note the start date on the journey in the Mission Reports thread from @damerell- started in 2016.  This challenge is not a short one!

Oh, one last thing-  @damerell's Mission Reports thread (linked above) was recently selected as Thread of the Month on the KSP Forums!  Congratulations!  

 

[damerell]

10 hours ago, 18Watt said:

Note the start date on the journey in the Mission Reports thread from @damerell- started in 2016.  This challenge is not a short one!

Slightly more even than that - Minmus, Mun, and Kerbin were threads of their own, and Minmus was May 2015, so it's been just under eight years. But ofc there was a long period after 2016 when I wasn't really doing anything beyond looking at the save and fiddling around in the VAB. I picked it all up again in early 2022 - by the time I was posting in June, I'd already been doing some vehicle design and sending out ScanSATs. The impetus was the pandemic, but it wouldn't have been possible in anything like the current form without @Starwastermaking Kerbal Foundries parts work again and @SuicidalInsanitycoming up with a functional Project Orion mod.

[Nazalassa]

I fixed a few problems on the Kan-Kan II. First, the engine plates were not shielded from drag and therefore water damage, and were prone to excessive explosions when entering water. This was fixed by attaching them by their central nodes in 4x1 node configuration, rather than their open ends. To keep the shroud I attached the reaction wheels to their open ends. Now the rover can be thrown into water without damaging it!

It also goes down quite fast once it's in water...

Spoiler

Yes, it's driving "on" the ice wall...

I also added some lights

And now I think it's ready for a Kerbin Elkano!

Its underwater speed has greatly increased, I think I'll be able to go around 7 m/s on flat seabed.