Another tweet by the team

[moeggz]

https://twitter.com/kerbalspacep/status/1690131687920078853?s=46&t=YxJFOflCg4HjqV9Xt6XGIA

 

To everyone at Intercept Games, this really meant a lot. Thank you for communicating to us clearly, and while still being optimistic, acknowledging the honest emotions some of us are experiencing with the launch.

This paired with the big bug fixes just announced along with a (small) timeline update is (to me) a major improvement. Even the grouches among us are rooting for you guys. 
 

I can honestly say I want to boot up KSP2 after the update and (hopefully) change my steam review. Heck I may even join in a hype train like the old days for the science update.

[Alexoff]

This is not the first such message. I remember Nate wrote about the state of the game back in the spring and all the fans immediately forgave everything. This is a very superficial confession. It's just that the game is not in the best condition, and why it turned out like that, who misled us a year ago and what was done to prevent the game from being in such a state - there is no talk about this. After all, it's not a game in a bad state, but early access without a huge amount of old and new features in a bad state.

[PDCWolf]

I'm still waiting for this to be officially echoed at the forums, and what I believe is an apology owed to the Reddit community.

• -1 point for blaming the fans. It is you who sets expectations, specially with that price, and it is you still who failed to manage said expectations.
• It is a good first step in starting to own up to the state of the game and communicating that you know and accept it is not what it should be.
• Good on setting dates. Creating plans for the future and then following through with them on what you promised is the first step towards adulthood. Yes, that's snarky but I really found no other way to express my feelings on that particular issue.

 

[VlonaldKerman]

I think in their next apology they should apologize for this tweet from 2019: 

Or this post from 05/16/2022 where Nate Simpson claims that the FULL GAME will launch in early 2023: 

Notice how the first reply is someone saying, “that’s okay, take your time!”
 

I think there is a misconception that people are fed up with the game being buggy or incomplete. I think that they’re mainly upset that the same game which these tweets concern is buggy and incomplete in 2023, despite these statements.

They do not need to apologize for the game being unfinished, they should apologize for statements like these.

Edited August 13, 2023 by VlonaldKerman

[Alexoff]

Modding: We expect modders to dig into KSP2 on day one. We recognize that the modding community has played a big role in the longevity of KSP, and we continue to be impressed by the mods that are released. The team aims to ensure that over the course of Early Access, the sequel is even more mod-friendly and release updates aimed to support the modding community. Additionally, the team will be collecting feedback and analyzing how to continue to improve modding support with the community

Oh, I went through the old statements of the developers. How diligently they defended us from the terrible truth. How everyone rejoiced at such messages...

 

 

[Strawberry]

33 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

I think in their next apology they should apologize for this:

Gonna be honest, 4 years ago it was basically impossible to find anything negative about Musk (which was annoying). Idk why they should apologize for this when its a pretty benign statement and the time when that tweet was published you had star trek decrying that he’ll be the savior of humanity.

[Alexoff]

13 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

he’ll be the savior of humanity

Well, maybe he saved the world, because the world is still quite intact. Maybe he was able to find the first zombie and save the world from the zombie apocalypse.

It's not very clear how this justifies Nate's empty, promising claims he's given out so many times.

[Geredis]

10 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

It is a good first step in starting to own up to the state of the game and communicating that you know and accept it is not what it should be.

 

I agree here, and I think my biggest issue with this (and other apologies) is that not once have they acutally stepped beyond this initial and most superficial step. The apologies are fine...I guess. But when you keep just doing a stage-1 apology that simply says sorry, and sometimes acknowledges the existence of the problem, but says nothing about owning the responsibility, nor offering a statement in a full and comprehensive fashion to the full audience to ensure everyone hears it, then very rarely if ever meaningfully follow through on the apology process to truly make good on what happens...you can see where the problem(s) lay in then constantly saying sorry as if that's enough.

There are six steps/parts to an apology:

1. Say you're sorry.
2. State what you did.
3. Show you understand why it was bad.
4. Only explain if you need to; don't make excuses. (This step here is rather important I'd say; and at this point we do require explanations)
5. Say why it won't happen again.
6. Offer to make up for it.

Every time we hear something along these lines, we basically only hear Step 1 and then they gloss over everything else and state Step 6 in the vaguest way possible.  There's no actual remorse in any of it as I read these statements, no stated process to actually doing/being better.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Geredis

[VlonaldKerman]

28 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

Gonna be honest, 4 years ago it was basically impossible to find anything negative about Musk (which was annoying). Idk why they should apologize for this when its a pretty benign statement and the time when that tweet was published you had star trek decrying that he’ll be the savior of humanity.

I don’t have an issue with Musk- my issue is that they said “KSP 2 is near!” in 2019! I don’t care who they said it to, they must have known it was wrong!

[moeggz]

3 hours ago, Alexoff said:

This is not the first such message. I remember Nate wrote about the state of the game back in the spring and all the fans immediately forgave everything. This is a very superficial confession. It's just that the game is not in the best condition, and why it turned out like that, who misled us a year ago and what was done to prevent the game from being in such a state - there is no talk about this. After all, it's not a game in a bad state, but early access without a huge amount of old and new features in a bad state.

Yes, I agree. Here is why I view it slightly differently:

1.This was posted directly more publicly then a dev update.

2. It came paired with actually substantial sounding bug improvements and an timeline update. A small one, but I’m not going to complain when the step is the right direction.

3. Just like “the forums” isn’t one entity and different  individuals will do different things so too is IG/PD/T2. All decisions are made by groups of people and these good decisions are made by maybe not the exact same people. I would rather focus on showing my support for positive changes, even if incremental, to hopefully reinforce them then keep my focus on past bad decisions that may have been made by different people.

Edited August 12, 2023 by moeggz

[Alexoff]

27 minutes ago, moeggz said:

an timeline update

Just an anniversary - six months from the release of the game. What will be ready by then will be inserted into the patch.

30 minutes ago, moeggz said:

the step is the right direction

It seems to me that releasing patches for a heavily bugged game is a matter of course for any developer. Apparently we need to thank that they did not run away with all the money ...

[Stoup]

14 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

It seems to me that releasing patches for a heavily bugged game is a matter of course for any developer. Apparently we need to thank that they did not run away with all the money ...

There's a pretty big difference between acknowledging that things are moving in what can be considered a more productive direction, and holding a tiny little glimmer of positivity aloft and pretending it means that everything will be good, fine, and perfect forever. I really don't see the latter being eggz's point, personally.

 

I can honestly say I don't know what I'd expect them to say to alleviate my concerns at this point, but that things like this tweet are what I estimate to be the closest they seem to be willing to let their corporatese language get to it.

[moeggz]

3 hours ago, Stoup said:

There's a pretty big difference between acknowledging that things are moving in what can be considered a more productive direction, and holding a tiny little glimmer of positivity aloft and pretending it means that everything will be good, fine, and perfect forever. I really don't see the latter being eggz's point, personally.

 

I can honestly say I don't know what I'd expect them to say to alleviate my concerns at this point, but that things like this tweet are what I estimate to be the closest they seem to be willing to let their corporatese language get to it.

Yup I agree it’s still less then some we’re hoping for. And I’m still holding until the update for final judgement. But if it takes us from “mostly unplayable” to “mostly playable” I will be very pleased with these steps.

They’re small, there is still no guarantee that they will continue and maybe development will not progress or get worse. 
 

But for me, this is what I was asking for. I don’t want to get mad because the step wasn’t big enough, I’m hoping for positive reinforcement to be able to keep seeing good steps.

[Pyritin]

This tweet frankly reads like the plot of any stereotypical abuse scenario ever. Maybe stop swearing you'll all finally do better and deliver something worth releasing and do it already...  Anyone looking at this from the outside in knows darn well what's going to happen next. Patch comes out and half the stuff that is supposed to be fixed is, a third of the stuff that previously worked will be broken, and a whole slew of unrelated issues will appear. Perhaps if our abusers are feeling "generous" we'll get another "I'm sorry we'll do better next time" message... The core loop of the game isn't even working in a closed loop single player scenario... what hope is there that multiplayer is going to work or even be a thing player's can touch for at least another 5 years at the rate things are "developing" with this project. This point I honestly can't understand why TT or PD is even bothering at this point. The team behind KSP2 seem like good people, they just aren't the RIGHT people for this job.

[The Aziz]

[snip]

17 hours ago, Pyritin said:

The team behind KSP2 seem like good people, they just aren't the RIGHT people for this job.

They are right, there just isn't enough of them for project of this size.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Vanamonde

[VlonaldKerman]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

They are right, there just isn't enough of them for project of this size.

Is this the new line? In two months, is this what people are going to be saying underneath the dev update that says, “science is coming early next year, not late this year”?

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

Please, oh mighty foreteller, tell me what I'm going to have for dinner in a week's time

A bug fix patch, with no information about the timing science update, and probably no timing for heat, either.

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

They are right, there just isn't enough of them for project of this size.

It seems that there are about 60 people working there on Linkln, plus probably 10-15 people from the squad. For a game weighing 30 gigabytes, this amount seems more than enough.

[Vanamonde]

Many angry comments removed. Getting nasty with each other will not make you feel better nor improve the game. 

[TwoCalories]

First people are mad because the KSP2 devs are "ignoring the big problems and glossing over all the issues".

Now the devs are telling us they're going to fix all the big issues, and people are all angry about... something. I can't even keep track of what the anti-KSP2 users are complaining about anymore.

[KerbolExplorer]

tbh this feels like an empty apology, like those walls of text AAA publish after making an awful 70€ "game".

No owning up to mistakes, not even saying where things went wrong, just " we know it doesn't mean your expectations" Think that was obvious since the game came out lol

We are now quite a while away from the early access launch, game is at 37% positive reviews on steam, the discord server is full of apologist and the game feels like it will never be finished. In the meantime the community manager will call places like reddit an echo chamber, like if the discord wasn't and blame bots for him getting downvotes.

Edited August 13, 2023 by KerbolExplorer

[Stoup]

3 hours ago, TwoCalories said:

First people are mad because the KSP2 devs are "ignoring the big problems and glossing over all the issues".

Now the devs are telling us they're going to fix all the big issues, and people are all angry about... something. I can't even keep track of what the anti-KSP2 users are complaining about anymore.

Just to speak for myself, what still grinds me a little is that they haven't said they're "fixing all the big issues". Specifically what comes to mind for me is issues like orbital decay, which is one of the biggest things preventing me from wanting to give KSP2 a whirl. I understand complicated issues like this can take a long time to correct, but it's just... disheartening, I guess, to think about how this may reflect on what we can expect to be delivered in the future. If, for example, let's say Science mode comes out. If there's a bug on a similar scale to orbital decay present in that kind of update, based on past experience waiting so long for a bug like that to be fixed, AGAIN, is a very frustrating prospect.

[VlonaldKerman]

9 hours ago, TwoCalories said:

First people are mad because the KSP2 devs are "ignoring the big problems and glossing over all the issues".

Now the devs are telling us they're going to fix all the big issues, and people are all angry about... something. I can't even keep track of what the anti-KSP2 users are complaining about anymore.

I think what many people are upset about is that none of these issues needed to be found by the community in order to be fixed. On release, the game was so broken that a simple Mun mission would likely see a dozen bugs or more, with several game breaking ones. Almost none of the bugs that have been fixed would have gotten by QA testers.

Why release the game when you still need 6+ months just to make a rudimentary sandbox experience playable? And if you’re gonna do that, why so tight-lipped about feature updates like science? It feels like they’re trying to gin up hype and excitement for the future by denying us information, but they haven’t earned that faith yet.

By the way, this is exactly what people were complaining about on day one- there hasn’t been a massive song change like you’re intimating. All that’s changed is that some of the massive bugs are being patched (good) but it’s taken six months (bad) thus vindicating the view that the game was nowhere near what would make sense to release when it was first released into EA (bad).

Edited August 14, 2023 by VlonaldKerman

[Superfluous J]

23 hours ago, Alexoff said:

It seems that there are about 60 people working there on Linkln, plus probably 10-15 people from the squad. For a game weighing 30 gigabytes, this amount seems more than enough.

I've never considered the ratio of programmers to number of gigabytes in the download. Does anything else factor into that equation like - for example - the game's screen resolution?

9 hours ago, Stoup said:

Just to speak for myself, what still grinds me a little is that they haven't said they're "fixing all the big issues". Specifically what comes to mind for me is issues like orbital decay

But they did say just that, 3 days ago right here:

Specifically:

On 8/11/2023 at 6:31 PM, nestor said:

Orbital Decay. The team has identified one source contributing to the orbital drift and fixed it. Unfortunately that has not fixed drift in all situations. The team continues to investigate other sources for orbital drift.

 

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, VlonaldKerman said:

By the way, this is exactly what people were complaining about on day one- there hasn’t been a massive song change like you’re intimating. All that’s changed is that some of the massive bugs are being patched (good) but it’s taken six months (bad) thus vindicating the view that the game was nowhere near what would make sense to release when it was first released into EA (bad).

This seems to be the biggest disconnect between the people who (reasonably) defend the developers and the game, and those who (reasonably) criticize it. As one who (I hope) reasonably defends it I'll pipe in.

I agree with you 100% that the game should not have been released even in EA in the state that it was. I have no doubt every single person working on the game knew it and still knows it to this day. I just don't think there's any useful outcome to discussing it anymore.

We know. They know. Let's move forward.

[modus]

6 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

This seems to be the biggest disconnect between the people who (reasonably) defend the developers and the game, and those who (reasonably) criticize it. As one who (I hope) reasonably defends it I'll pipe in.

I agree with you 100% that the game should not have been released even in EA in the state that it was. I have no doubt every single person working on the game knew it and still knows it to this day. I just don't think there's any useful outcome to discussing it anymore.

We know. They know. Let's move forward.

Yes, but forward to...what?  I totally agree a lot of you are tired of seeing or having the same discussion over and over again (I'm hardly posting anymore, just reading the same 6 people fight), but...you know...what is there to talk about? (A lot of people think) the game sucks isn't good (yet?), so what else is there to talk about?